Is Darth Vader really all THAT tough when it comes to Lightsaber Duels?

I don?t think so?..

Sure, when he is a Jedi he?s known as one of the best pilots
He is a ?cunning warrior? and of course, the chosen one.
As a Jedi, we are never told he can fight well with lightsabers (I don?t recall)

When he becomes Darth Vader, he?s powerful, ruthless, intimidating, feared, and unforgiving in many cases. And of course, he displays great ability in his usage of the dark side.
But again, we never see him ?stand out? as a swordsman (for lack of better words)


In TPM we don?t see it, of course

In ATOTC, when he?s with Dukoo, he looses, as we know so far?

In Ep III, we know he fights with Obi Wan and ?looses? again (theoretically)

In ANH, you can?t say he beats Obi-Wan, we all know why?..

In ESB he beats Luke but only because, Luke is beaten with (1) thrown pieces that bruised him and ultimately made him fall to a platform and (2) it was Lukes?s first ever lightsaber fight. Come on!!! Vader should have beaten him easily without throwing objects!

In ROTJ he looses, maybe cause he?s old or maybe cause he doesn?t want to kill his son?.but he still looses


One argument can be, that ?if he can stand against Dukoo, even though not beating him, he?s a bloody good lightsaber fighter to me..?

Or another argument could be, ?just because we don?t SEE him win a fight doesn?t mean he is not the best??

Or, ?when he beat Luke in ESB, and when he beat Obi-Wan in ANH, that was good enough for me?

My point is, a Jedi/Sith should be known and measured as being ONE OF THE BEST BY his ability to fight with lightsabers, IMHO
At least it should be a major factor in measuring a Jedi or Sith

Darth Maul won one round and lost the other one, naturally, but his ability was awesome, and without a doubt you CAN say he was a good lightsaber fighter, only to be beaten by ONE OF THE BEST, Obi-Wan.

In Ep III, I honestly want to see Anakin or Vader fight someone good (Mace, or Dukoo maybe) and beat the hell out of him fair and square, no excuse, no ?draw?, and same level of expertise
Then, and only then, I?ll be able to say ?Anakin/Vader? was ONE OF THE BEST Jedi/Sith (when it comes to lightsaber duels)




If this has been said before (sorry) then let me know so I can lock this thread??

 

1. The fact that in AOTC we see Anakin keep turning it up a notch, until he is exhausted is incredibly impressive. He uses two lightsabers! My god! That is incredible, and even though he gets beat he puts up a really, really good fight.

2. Luke was just a better fighter than the criplled old Vader at the time of ROTJ. Luke turned it up a notch just like Anakin earlier, Vader was neither prepared nor able to counter such a furious attack.

 

My point is, a Jedi/Sith should be known and measured as being ONE OF THE BEST BY his ability to fight with lightsabers, IMHO

I don't agree. There are a whole bunch of qualities other than the ability to fight with a lightsaber that the Jedi and the Sith have.

Look at Maul. He was a mindless fighting machine. That was basically all he knew how to do (at least as was portrayed in TPM). He finds someone better than him at dueling, and now he's in two pieces at the bottom of a Naboo reactor core. Whereas, if someone like..say..Palpatine, got into a lightsaber fight with Kenobi, he would at least attempt to outsmart him in some way, considering that Palpatine was extremely intelligent.

But I do agree that Vader wasn't that skilled at using his lightsaber, as say, a Darth Maul. In one of those dream duels between Darth Vader and Darth Maul, I put my money easily on Maul.

 

1. Vader is not the best in Episode II and of course episode I. But he IS powerful.

2. Vader is basically a walking Lung in Episode 4-6. He is still pwerful with the force, but he is a criple plain and simple. When he goes up against luke, luke is full of youth and becomes powerful by ROTJ - becuase Luke uses his hatred to defeat Vader. In Empire he isn't even a fully trained Jedi. Vader didn't even really want to kill him. He wanted to turn him to the Dark Side. Little did Vader know that there could only be Two sith. It was the Emperors plan to have Luke Deafeat Vader. To take Vaders place.

3. We don't know what happens in Episode 3 - but I bet you Anakin kills some jedi during the Purge - we don't know the circumstances of Anakin vs. OB1 - we'll just have to see what happens.

 

I would really like to see Vader kick someone's a$$ on a duel for once....

a HEAVYWEIGHT (same expertise) battle....

Mace Windu or Count Dukoo would be great....
actually Count Dukoo would be better....
kinda like saying, "i'm back, and this time, i'm gonna hassle your arse"

maybe Vader could do all the same things Dukoo does to Anakin in AOTC




I'm gonna briefly, change the subject because of this comment:

"...Little did Vader know that there could only be Two sith"

I disagree with that, Vader learned the arts and teachings of the sith early in the game, not only its one of the first rules to being a sith, but even the Jedi know that rule, for crying out loud. That is the reason why Vader wanted to overthrow Palpy and rule with his son, because of the "only two" rule.

 

His force powers are great but not his fighting. Luke became so passive that some in here think he was weak compared to Anakin and Obi Wan. I dont think thats the case.

 

Viper Stew wait until you see EIII I bet you will change your tune. He hunts down and kills many Jedi. I HOPE and I'm KEEPING MY FINGERS CROSSED, that George will let Anakin/Vader kill Mace. Even SJ said Mace should go down to Vader. That's going to be one hell of a battle.

 

You sure he hunts Jedi down in episode 3? Lucas stated recenly"not all is as it seams" concerning plot expectations for episode 3. Chances are clone wars will have killed off most by time episode 3 starts.

 

Texas Jedi

I know that Vader will do evil and powerful things in Ep III....but that's not what i'm saying

Before he gets his but wooped from Obi-Wan, It would be nice to see him display his lightsaber skills.....cause i don't think in the purge of the Jedi he'll be using his lightsaber. Most likely it will be through a massacre of stormtroopers or bombing buildings....

 

Well I bet he beats Dooku in Ep. 3. Now that should be good enough for you.

 

Jedipete - "In the chaos that accompanied Palpatine's rise to power, Vader became one of the Emperor's most loyal servants. The Emperor entrusted him with the elimination of the Jedi Knights. During these dark times, Vader and his agents destroyed the Jedi order."

From the OS.

 

I think that he was probably no longer at the top of his physical fighting form by the OT. Perhaps that is why the Emperor was so keen to replace him with Luke. Besides, fighting with lightsabers was no longer a widely practiced skill by ROTJ. OB1 was his first lightsaber duel in what maybe 18 years? In the 7 or so years after that he has 2 fights total, both with an inexperience novice.

Also I suspect the measure of a Siths ability is not just how well he fights with a lightsaber. I'm not sure Maul would kick Vader's arse. What makes you so sure that Vader wouldn't choke him or pummel him with heavy objects until he was beaten to death? Also Vader was NEVER trying to kill Luke, perhaps he was just fighting at Luke's level to try and lull him into thinking that he could actually win the fight. Then in ROTJ... Ooops! He got Luke a little more riled up than he intended and was caught completely off guard as Luke kicked it up about 10 notches. Poor Vader, about 20 years out of practice.

 

Lucas has been known to change his mind alot. That said, stuff from his earlier drafts would be used. In particular, the second draft of ANH. The discription of the fall of the Jedi.

 

IN Episode III you will see Anakin become mroe powerful than all of the jedi, including Yoda. This is why the Jedi will be defeated and vanquished and Obi Wan and Yoda wil be forced into hiding. Anakin will kill Dooku and Mace Windu in saber fights on screen and we will finally see the bad mofo we always knew Vader was.

 

I know this is more Episode III than Episode II, but I think we will see Anakin kill Dooku - it would be the perfect balance to the final duel in Return of the Jedi.
Standing over his defeated rival, and with his lightsabre at the Count's throat, he will kill him, possibly at Darth Sidious's command, and take his place as the Sith Lord's apprentice. That would make Luke's choice in exactly the same situation a generation later all the more heroic - he will do what his father wouldn't or couldn't do - turn his back on the Dark Side, and throw away his weapon.

 

I really don't think we can judge Vader by the lightsaber fights in the OT. One its obvious (At least to me) that he's just toying with Luke in the first fight, like he's not even putting any effort into it.

And on another level at the time the OT was made they really didn't have great choreographed fight scenes like they do now

 

Vader sucked in the old films because the fight choreographers they hired then were just not up to par with today's professionals. That's all there is to it. No story reason.

 

SLightly off-topic but it was mentioned earlier in the thread: Maul beat himself, Obi-Wan didn't defeat him. Maul could have EASILY finished Obi-Wan off, instead he chose to gloat...THAT was his undoing, NOT Kenobis' skill with the lightsaber. Let's be honest here...Maul WAS the man in TPM, he just got overconfident(funny how Sith tend to do that..).

As for Vader, I think he was a VERY skilled swordsman. Obi-Wan is reputedly an excellent swordsman, yet Dooku beats him easily. Anakin puts up a good, albeit apparently short, fight with Dooku. I am thinking that we will see some impressive swordsmanship from Anakin/Vader in EpIII. As for the OT, Vader is..uneven in his saber-ship...although I still always assumed he was good with the blade.

 

Wouldn't it be good if he fought Dooku then won, then when he goes to the darkside, he also fights Mace and wins, before finally Obi-wan fights back and wins.

It kind of also enforces that Obi-wan is a very powerful saberfighter, if he can beat Vader if Vader kills the Count and Master Mace.

Don't you think?

Although I really want to see what the hell happens to Yoda to make him want to live in a swamp, eat soup and steal outlanders' torches.
Hehehe, what a transition!

=Kranal=

 

Kranal there is no way Anakin is beating Dooku, beating Mace, then losing to OBI-Wan, who would get beaten by both men anakin just beat....................Anakin beating Dooku is one thing, Anakin beating Mace might be stretching it,

 

From what we know, Vader plays a "key" role in the destruction of the Jedi. Which means most likely he's responsible for the death of a fair number of Jedi masters. Now how could he do all that without being "one" of the, if not "the" best with a lightsabre?

 

All I have to say "WHOS THE LAST MAN STANDING" not obi wan ,not mace not even yoda Anakin is the last of the originals. And I think old palps was next

 

well we don't know if Anakin kills or Dooku or Mace but he probably offs one or the other..

It would show his power..

 

I completely agree about the lamentation that Vader's lightsaber skills don't seem as good as his reputation. And I don't care for all the explanations that assert he is powerful without being a competent swordsman.

Yes, there are many forms of having power (charisma, threats, coercion, rank, political position, money), but for a character like Anakin/Vader, he needs to be one of the most powerful swordsmen in the universe.

And yes, he should surpass even Yoda in skill. Every fencing/sword instructor has to honestly admit that no matter how good they once were, there will come a time when the skill and vigor of younger fencers will technically overcome the techniques and skill of the older swordsman simply because the body cannot take the physical punishment a younger swordsman is capable of employing.

Vader should kick every Jedi's butt in EP 3 with the exception of Obi-Wan. The focus and intensity of the swordsman is unbroken in the most talented and powerful of fencers, but when emotion enters the picture, an entirely new dynamic is created. I would predict that it is Anakin's attachment for his former master that causes him to loose the battle against Obi-Wan.

In ANH, Obi-Wan sacrificed himself for the others. He would have lost to Vader anyway if he had continued the duel. Obi-Wan took control and allowed Vader to "kill" him.

Yeap, Anakin should do some Jedi whoopin' in EP 3.

 

isnt anakin suposed to be a great hero of the clone wars?

but he can't be a hero if he defeats jedi master mace windu could he?(unless windu is a sith or sumthin)

so i would say anakin defeats dukoo in ep3