is it justified?

In AOTC, Anakin slaughtered all of the Tusken Raiders in a fit of rage for torturing his mother to the point of death. The look he gives the camera following her death is classic. Hayden really pulled it off with that look. The novel of AOTC goes into a lot more detail about the slaughter. It even tells how Anakin used the Force to lift a huge boulder and drop it on a hut filled with scared Tusken women and children that were fleeing his raging onslaught. I know, not canon but it did add a little perspective into how far Anakin went towards the Dark Side.

Later, on Geonosis, when Anakin and Padme? were sneaking into the droid foundry, Anakin began slaughtering unarmed Geonosans that were trying to capture them. He was going through them like butter until he had to contend with a lot of moving machinery as well as sonic weaponry and flying Geonosans. How does this differ from Anakin?s slaughter of the Tusken village?

I honestly feel that Anakin was more justified in killing the Tuskens than he was in killing the Geonosans.

Our heroes were to be executed in the arena for espionage, which is totally justifiable in our society. But those doing the executing were seen as villains and the fact that Anakin ruthlessly murdered untold numbers of Geonosans is never mentioned nor condemned.

I ask, what gave Anakin the right to kill those bug like creatures and not the Tuskens?

Self defense? BLAH!!! He could have used the force to clear a path, he never thought twice about igniting his light sabre and going to town on them.

To avoid capture? Again BLAH!!! Padme? had just told him to follow her lead because she did not want to start a war. It seems to me that if she really wanted to find a ?diplomatic? solution, they would not have been sneaking into the catacombs, they would have knocked on the front door.

Any thoughts?

 

There's a big differnce... Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens out of pure rage (you said it yourself). One of the biggest rules of being a Jedi is not letting your emotions get the better of you, especially rage. Rage leads directly down the dark path.

It didn't appear that Anakin was killing the Geonosians out of rage...

Edit: this has also been discussed a lot before, and this thread will probably get the can. I suggest you read over a post such as Anakin slaughtering the Tusken Raiders - How wrong was it? . There's some more that you can find in Attack of the Clones forum - Rules / Regulations / Thread Index

 

Besides that, I imagine the Geonosians are like ants and such on Earth. I expect they have a hive mentality and are ready to sacrifice themselves for the good of the colony.

 

I think he was more justified in killing the Geonosians. They were building mass armies for the Separists, and were trying to capture them. Anakin had a duty to protect Padme, protect himself, and find and rescue Obi-Wan.

With the Tuskens, I believe he had the right to injure or even kill those responsible for Shmi, but not the women and children. The women and children may have done nothing to help Shmi, but they weren't involved in her capture or abuse. They didn't deserve to die.

 

Unarmed or not, the Geonosians were trying to capture Anakin. It was necessary to take this course of action. I would have done the same. The Tuskens were slaughtered out of pure rage, and he also went after the woman and children which probably had nothing to do with Shmi's death.

 

I think I'm more with Bewchacca on this one, guys.

Whether Anakin was raging when he killed or not has nothing to do with it. Killing is killing. In fact, since that Tatooine incident was "crime of passion" he might even get more leniency than for killing the Geonosians. People who kill calmly and without seeming angry/perturbed about something are usually considered mentally disturbed. So I guess I don't see how the "he was angry when he killed the Tuskens" thing applies. While I realize that is a problem as far as the Jedi code is concerned, last time I checked Jedi are responsible to the government for their actions to. He's not above the law, so talking about what violations of the Jedi Code their were is in some way an irrelevant discussion here, since the Jedi Code isn't our moral meterstick for good/bad.

Secondly, just because someone is ready to sacrifice themselves doesn't mean its right to kill them. For instance, the protestors of both the US Civil Rights movement, and in Ghandi's movements knew that by choosing nonviolent protest they were putting themselves in harm way, "sacrificing themselves for the greater good." But the brutalities they suffered were still horrible and inexcusable. In the same way, just because Geonosians were willing to die doesn't mean it was appropriate to kill them.

Thirdly, what does there building armies have to do with anything? No one knew that they were building armies yet, to begin with. And even supposing they had such information, no one knew what the armies were going to be used for. After all, they were only used when the Jedi sent 200+ highly trained Jedi with a second wave of thousnads of fully armed clonetroopers all just to prevent the perfectly legal execution of a spy. Just because they're "the bad guys" and just because we as the audience no certain information about their motives does not mean that Anakin knew and was appropriate in his actions. There are rules of conduct soldiers follow, even in war.

All that being said, though, it would have been permissible had the Jedi Council (with the Chancellor's approval, of course) decided on such an extraction/rescue mission. Then, since it was a militatry engagement, I could see Anakin using lethal force. However, since none of those things happened, I have to say Anakin was on pretty shaky ground.

 

The Geonosians were trying to shoot Anakin dead, you're more then justified to kill someone when they're shooting at you

Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens wasn't justified, it was an act of pure rage. I don't know if i wouldn't have done the same thing though, which is why I love the scene so much. I think/hope I'd have stopped after killing all the men, if Anakin had done that then he'd have been justified, but not the women and children

But that's off-topic, Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskens isn't comparable to him killing several Geonosians

 

I didn't really say everything I was thinking when I posted (it was 2AM ) By hive mentality, I meant that they are drones, mostly incapable of higher thought. Sort of like a single Geonosian is to the hive what a single cell is to the body. Merely a tiny part that is not truely aware, but will work for the greater good of the whole.

Of course, I neither kill ants or cells.

 

I don't think that the Geonosans shot at Anakin until he had already sliced and diced a few of them. Remember, they didn't kill Obi Wan although the droids were shooting at him in the holo-transmition, he was captured. They tried to capture Padme' too, but she resisited and fell into the large vat. Again, I state that Padme' told Anakin to follow her lead to avoid a war. Had Anakin not killed any Geonosans and been captured they may have had some kind of diplomatic immunity and been able to negotiate,albeit the negotiations probably would have failed, the demcratic process that Padme' believed in so much would have been served. Those that have watched the deleted scenes on the DVD may recall that there is on scene where Padme' is actually being lured by Dooku and when she refuses to support the seperatist, they are then tried as spies in a kangaroo court. Now think about this, what if a United States Senator where to covertly enter a foreign country in an attempt to rescue a captured operative(which Obi Wan was). And suppose that the said senator's body guard started killing the troops trying to capture them, what would that do to the credibility of said senator? What would the leaders of the foreign power do to reciprocate for the unlawful invasion of thier soverinty(sp)?
Regarless of the sociological make up of Geonosan society, Anakin felt guilt and pain following the slaughter of the Tuskens, which he described as animals, which he slaughtered like animals. Why would he not feel the same guilt at killing the geonosan animals? I am sure he was feeling some "RAGE" because he was "FEARFUL" for the safety of his mentor that was like a father to him. I fail to see the justification in the killing of the Geonosans.

 

In the long run, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme would still all be placed in the Arena, even if they hadn't attacked. They were protecting themselves and trying to find Obi-Wan, and they were fighting against Geonosians who were helping build the droid army that would be used to start a war. They were justified in attacking them.

 

Justified in "attacking them"? A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense...never for attack. They were there covertly without authorization from the Jedi council on the whim of a senator whose live was in jeapordy from by the very ones they were trying to save ObiWan from. Rationalize it all you want, Anakin murdered those Geonosans because he thought them nothing more than animals, just like the Tuskens and I do not think he should be hailed as a hero for doing so. In the PT so far, we have only see three Jedi kill sentient beings... Obi Wan killed Maul, Mace killed Jango and Anakin slaughtered many animals.
Obi Wan was perhaps justified in killing Maul, but he was in a bit of emotional distress when he did so, seeing his mentor impaled minutes prior. MAce killing Jango, I have my suspicions about Mace's true motivations. Anakin just likes to kill, plain and simple.

 

I think Anakin would get off clean, no matter what. There doesn't seem to be any laws governing the murder of hundreds of computer generated people.

Kill a hundred or so Jedi? Welllll then....you'll be branded a villian faster than you can say Death Star!

The CGI people are getting screwed, I tell you.

 

Justified in "attacking them"? A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense...never for attack

Yea and look what that idea got yoda, a little shack on the most backwater planet there is

 

Yes Anakin had ever right to fight back against the Geonosians. They helped to kill a lot of jedi and they were also tryign to kill Anakin and Padme.

Obi Wan killed Maul,
Obi-wan had ever right to do this. Maul killed his master he would have killed him, Padme, Anakin, etc.

Mace killed Jango Same with Jango.

 

The Geonosians were expendable. Even when one of them was killed by the Nexu the rest cheered.

Anakin was also attacked (from behind) when he and Padme were in the tunnel (the thing had some sort of weapon resembling a sword) and Anakin sliced him without hesitation, he had to, just as much as he had to destroy the others. The ?insects? intent was to kill, and so there was no other choice for Anakin.

However, the Tuskens (being a family unit) slaughter was wrong. It was a very un-Jedi like action by Anakin for sure. Highlighted especially when we hear the Emperor?s theme when Anakin goes through the motions with his confession.

In anycase, Ep. II is supposed to be disturbing. Questioning the actions is good discussion

 

A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense...never for attack.

And yet we see Jedi attacking a number of times... something tells me that Yoda meant that one is literally not supposed to use the Force for attack (which in itself is interesting, since we've seen Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin all use the force to push people away).

 

I think what Yoda meant was that a Jedi shouldn't "attack" first. If you'll notice in TPM and AOTC, the villians always make the first move, and the Jedi attack afterwards in defending themselves. The same holds true to Anakin "attacking" the Geonosians in the factory since the Geonosians made the first move.

 

Yea really

The jedi aren't idiotic pacifists, if attacked they'll defend themselves even if it means going on the offensive to remove a threat

 

I found that scene really odd - when they enter the Geonosian tunnel and Anakin starts slicing them up like so much cabbage.

It just doesn't add up. We've just seen Anakin confess to mass murder, it's a powerful scene. Then Padme has to talk him into going to Geonosis 'cos he's pretty depressed, doesn't know if he's a good person anymore, all that makes sense, he feels guilty about killing, he's a Jedi, he should be better than that.

But then they land on Geonosis and he's carving up these Geonosians without a second thought.
????
Eh? What happened to all the guilt?

What I expected was him to have lost his nerve, that he wouldn't be able to use his sabre for fear of going too far again and that his lack of action would get them caught.

But no - he murders them quite casually.
As for them being a hive mentality - what sort of excuse is that? They're sentient beings.
And when does he say "We're looking for our friend, we don't want to fight."?

I actually think Lucas doesn't consider the Geonosians. On the commentary he makes a joke in reference to "Clerks" about the innocent people building the DSII and how not to worry 'cos they were just Termites.
What sort of attitude is that?
I think Lucas just wanted another action scene at that point and it's okay to slice up termites 'cos they aren't people.
But that negates the guilt we've seen Anakin display over killing Tuskens.
It's sloppy writing.

I just don't see the difference between Tuskens and Geonosians, they're both sentient beings aren't they?

 

The main difference is that the Tuskens were just waiting outside having a nice time when Anakin went and shredded their town in an act of rage and vengenance for what a few of them had done to his mother. The Geonosians, on the other hand, were about to kill Anakin as well as Padme, not to mention Obi-Wan's life was also on the line. It's like saying there's no difference between a soldier who kills enemy soldiers during a heated battle and a soldier who kills an innocent village for no reason.

 

"A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense...never for attack."

We also have to remember that Yoda says this in ESB, which is over 20 years after the events in AOTC. Much of Yoda's wisdom in the original trilogy seems to be derived from events that take place in the prequels.

 

It just seems inconsistant to me, Padme' wanted to avoid a war but thier actions are precicely what precipitated it. Anakin was even told by the council not to go help Obi Wan but again Anakin succumbed to Padme' rather than following his mandate. I think the whole execution thing was staged to bring the Jedi into a conflict with the seperatist and I also believe that Padme' is in on the whole thing. Honestly, wouldn't they have searched her for things such as lock picks and such. Heck, old ladies are bing strip searched in airports when metal hips set off metal detectors.

 

Heck, old ladies are bing strip searched in airports when metal hips set off metal detectors.

Yea, and thats because they have to be "fair" as they like to call it and treat everyone equally

Equality must be enforced before common sense it seems

 

And when does he say "We're looking for our friend, we don't want to fight."?

He never had the time to do that. They wanted to kill both him and Padme.


Heck, old ladies are bing strip searched in airports when metal hips set off metal detectors.

Can we please not use anything form the real world such as 9/11 and what is know done in airports. I will not deabit when that is used. We are talking about a movie. A movie that can not happen.

 

MetalGoldKnight - The main difference is that the Tuskens were just waiting outside having a nice time when Anakin went and shredded their town in an act of rage and vengenance for what a few of them had done to his mother. The Geonosians, on the other hand, were about to kill Anakin as well as Padme, not to mention Obi-Wan's life was also on the line. It's like saying there's no difference between a soldier who kills enemy soldiers during a heated battle and a soldier who kills an innocent village for no reason

This comparison to a soldier who kills enemies in a heated battle doesn't really fit tho' - Anakin was the invader, he's the one that starts the battle, why shouldn't the Geonosians defend themselves? you say they were about to kill Anakin and Padme but the end result was that they caught them and arrested them, they could've killed them, they didn't. We don't even know that the Geonosians he killed were soldiers, they may have been factory workers.

But I think the real reason is that Lucas wanted another action scene and Termite people don't matter, slice 'em up, it's fun.
But it makes nonsense of Anakin's guilt over killing the Tuskens.

I think its just another case of Lucas not putting himself into the minds of his characters. I think his attitude is: 'The guilt scene is over now, let's back to some mayhem.'

But it's sloppy writing like that which makes it hard for me to understand these characters.

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