Is it time to legalise prostitution?

Just watching Dollhouse. It really is just a whole big show about the ultimate fantasy brothel. It used to be the only role the prostitute played in TV and movies was to be murdered. Nowadays though we live in a different world with Pretty Woman and Belle Du Jour considered mainstream entertainment. One of my favourite characters in 'My Name is Earl' is Patty the daytime hooker. When Raj and Leonard want to cheer Howard up during a trip to Vegas on The Big Bang Theory they hire a hooker to give him the 'Jewish girlfriend experience'. According to the FBI the internet has created an explosion of prostitution amongst American schoolgirls and female college students, women who would never dream of working the streets are quite happy to turn tricks behind the safety and anonymity of web-escort work. Regulated prostitution is legal in Holland, New Zealand and Australia and the world didn't end. You can't turn on the TV without seeing a documentary about the legal bordellos in Nevada. Lingerie models admit to charging $15,000 a night for sex and it doesn't cause a ripple in their careers (I think that's very much a male thing, I could never imagine a woman being prepared to pay that much to sleep with a man no matter how handsome). 10 year old girls queue up to get autographs from Hugh Hefner and his Girls of the Playboy Mansion. The list of women who've appeared naked in Playboy reads like a who's who of TV, movies and fashion (Shannon Elizabeth, Drew Barrymore, Mercedes McNab, Kim Basinger, Melanie Griffith, Tia Carrere, Carmen Electra, Kristy Swanson, Pamela Anderson, Uma Thurman, Danni Minnogue, Jenny McCarthy, Cindy Crawford, Jamie Pressly, Elle MacPherson, Shannon Doherty, Charisma Carpenter, Tricia Helfer, Rachel Hunter, Melinda Clarke, Mimi Rogers, Naomi Campbell)

So, should we bite the bullet and just accept the way of the world or are we still puritans at heart?

 

It should be legalized and carefully regulated. The state can collect tax revenue and help minimize the spread of sexually transmitted disease. By legalizing prostitution, law enforcement can focus on the more egregious concerns like underage prostitutes and sex slavery.

 

It's legalized and regulated in Australia and has been for decades. Is it nor legalized in the United States? Anywhere?

 

It was legal in Rhode Island for a few decades, but we just banned it again the other week, out of national embarassment or something.

 

It's legal in Nevada.

 

It's legal in Holland.

Hmmm... I might not be telling anybody anything new here

 

Is that why Las Vegas is such a popular destination?

 

I'd agree in theory, but in practice, it also turns law enforcement into enforcers of the state monopoly.

It's the one issue that I think "legalization proponents" (no matter what the topic) seem to gloss over. In areas where prostitution is legal but regulated, law enforcement isn't free just to go after underage sex slavers and serious crimes, they still end up devoting a large percentage of their time engaging in enforcement against the unregulated segment.

New South Wales is set up this way, where prostitution and the physical brothel location are regulated by zoning ordinances. When enforcing prostitution, NSW police actually spends a large portion of their time issuing fines to those who don't get a zoning permit to run a brothel, and the end result it about the same. If a legitimate brothel has to pay $1000 a year for a zoning license, costs are higher than the unlicensed brothel that doesn't apply for a permit. Police suddenly aren't freed to go after the serious crimes, they just end up enforcing the state license requirements.

In other words, legalization practices may be good for economic concerns, but they have nothing really to do with switching the criminal focus to "more serious" crimes according to what is being regulated.

 

44, nobody said anything about that yet... There may be other benefits to legalizing prostitution. Also, you'd need to show some hefty proof to make that case.


What I found puzzling in the original post is this:

Not sure how that relates to prostitution.

 

Mr 44, actually, in New South Wales (where I live) it is the responsibility of the local Council as the relevant planning authority to enforce the rules that apply to brothels and not the NSW Police. Council compliance officers monitor brothels and will issue fines if the brothels fail to comply. The NSW Police only get involved if a crime appears to have been committed.

We had an interesting case recently in my local Council where a compliance officer submitted 'receipts' for sexual services for reimbursement as he was claiming those costs as part of his responsibility to identify unapproved brothels. His methodology was simple - he's go to brothels which were not approved and engage the services of one of the girls. He'd then issue a fine and provide his receipt as proof that the brothel was offering sexual services without develppment approval. His request was refused and his wife was apparaently also unimpressed.

 

44, nobody said anything about that yet.

Um Watto, Jabba did, right here:

By legalizing prostitution, law enforcement can focus on the more egregious concerns like underage prostitutes and sex slavery.

It's not a right or wrong issue, it's just that requiring a license on it's own doesn't have anything to do with the larger crime issue per se, beyond enforcing whatever the specific requirements for the licenses are.

For example, in Illinois, the IL State Police has a rather large cigarette tax task force, because tobacco taxes are so much higher in IL than in neighboring Indiana. There is nothing physically different between a cigarette sold in IL than one sold in IN, except for the tax stamp.

The Police cigarette enforcement group actually has one of the highest search warrant execution rates in the state, and seizes literally tons of illegal cigarettes each year. But again, the only reason why the cigarettes are illegal is because IL regulates them that way. In every other respect, the cigarettes are just ordinary, legal smokes that wouldn't be illegal in any other situation.

The business side of prostitution is similar. Again, as an example, the NSW police isn't able to devote their time to going after the serious side of sex crimes simply because of the zoning regulations, the majority is still spent enforcing the unregulated segment. The benefit is realized by the consumer, who has a choice of paying more but going to a regulated service, or taking the risk and spending less for an unregulated one.

All I am saying is that crime as a whole really isn't impacted by legalizing something, it just shifts the focus and economic principle which has it's own positives and negatives.

EDIT:

Council compliance officers monitor brothels and will issue fines if the brothels fail to comply. The NSW Police only get involved if a crime appears to have been committed.

LOH, that's the zoning aspect. I was under the impression that if a compliance fine was issued and the person ignores it, it falls to the NSW police to go enforce the order? Even if most cases are handled by a "compliance officer" (which are similar to parking officers and such, correct?) it's still the same concept.

 

Mr44, the NSW Police do not spend a single minute enforcing planning laws relating to unapproved brothels. The local Councils do that as the relevant planning authority. Your information is incorrect.

 

We crossed posted, but I added in an edit just above your last post:

LOH, that's the zoning aspect. I was under the impression that if a compliance fine was issued and the person ignores it, it falls to the NSW police to go enforce the order? Even if most cases are handled by a "compliance officer" (which are similar to parking officers and such, correct?) it's still the same concept.

 

Sorry 44, my bad. I don't think I disagree with the statement that legalizing something doesn't diminish crime as a whole, it doesn't bring down the number of active criminals. I guess that's true.

So - since that's neither a positive or a negative for legalizing anything - what are the real pros and cons are for legalising prostitution?

 

No, the Environmental Planning & Assesment Act 1974 which is the state legislation which governs planning and planning non-compliance in New South Wales provides that the local Council may issue fines and may prosecute for any non-compliance. The NSW Police do not get involved in any way unless a crime is actually committed in a brothel, such as an assault etc.

 

Step lightly, 44.... sounds like this is rrrreaallly Hoth's turf.

 

Actually, I used to have a client who ran a few brothels and I did most of the property work. Biggest slimebag I ever met. I felt the need to shower after speaking to him on the phone. I think he's in jail now.

 

Yeah, the people who run the places in the Red Light district aren't the cleanest business types either.

A new law was introduced here last year - goes by the cringeworthy name of 'the bibob law' - that suddenly makes it possible to close down the biggest sex businesses - of whom many appear to have been doing some dodgy book-keeping. There may be a chance we'll have a Red Light district without Red Lights. I wouldn't mind; it reeks of urine.

Are there any examples of clean legal prostitution?

 

No, the Environmental Planning & Assesment Act 1974 which is the state legislation which governs planning and planning non-compliance in New South Wales provides that the local Council may issue fines and may prosecute for any non-compliance. The NSW Police do not get involved in any way unless a crime is actually committed in a brothel, such as an assault etc.

LOH, I think we're saying the same thing. Who acts as the agent of prosecution for non-compliance? Isn't it the NSW police? I'm not suggesting that police officers in Australia are driving around looking for unlicensed brothels, especially if its not their jurisdiction, but the license itself becomes a criminal matter on its own if its disregarded.

It would go like this, correct?

1-Unlicensed brothel is discovered
2-Compliance officer issues fine
3-Brothel ignores order
4-NSW police go serve summons.

I'm going off a general discussion on the differences from a while ago, so I certainly could be confusing the enforcement actions of the council officer with the authority of the NSW police. But you certainly know more than I do, and I don't want to split hairs on the difference if I'm mistaken. But even if the council officer had authority under the law, the position would be the same, which is my point here. It's the enforcement of the regulation, not the agency doing the enforcing.

My point was more along the lines of that the act of licensing/regulation doesn't in itself open up the ability to go after larger..more serious crimes in difference to the specific license. It's more of an economic control.

 

I was making the point that people's attitude to nudity, sex and prostitution had changed entirely. Nowadays porn stars are household names and write bestselling autobiographies. Folks like Traci Lords have crossed over into mainstream acting. Instead of aerobics women go to pole-dancing classes. You can't be an actress in Hollywood these days with at very least stripping off to your undies in FHM and Maxim (oh, i should add Sharon Stone and Madonna to the Playboy list). Ultimately much of the stigma surrounding the sex industry has disappeared, hence my point that it might be time to just go the whole hog and legalise it totally

 

Okay, say for instance that prostitution were legalized in a number of states, what would be the most likely problems?

STD's: same problems whether it's legal or not. It might even require clients to exercise protection.

Crime rates: I can imagine there would be the issue of legal prostitution and rape generating more conflict than already exists. False allegations or genuine ones could be reduced, but could be escalated if not set up properly.

Youth exposure to sex: Obviously legal prostitution would increase this figure.

Underage prostitution/Sex slaves: it would seem to me that these would be reduced if there were regulations that would make off-the-book prostitution illegal. Otherwise, it might create a barrier to prevent such activities. Women who practice it would have to be a certain age and do it of their free will, or it wouldn't work.

Employment: If women/men would be willing to do it, then it would at least make the option open to them. If it's legal, it would also make it possible for the activity to be taxed.

US image: I can't imagine we in the US really care what other nations think of us anymore. This wouldn't really matter.

 

No, usually the local Council will engage private process servers to serve summonses as the offences are civil and not criminal. Like I said, the NSW Police only get involved if they are investigating an actual crime. Non compliance with planning law is not a crime, but the penalties are hefty. If unpaid, then they become a debt to the state, like unpaid parking fines etc.

The local Council also has powers to enter premises, issue search warrants, conduct investigations an inspections.

The NSW Police are specifically excluded from the regulation of brothels for the very reasons you have set out, namely, the NSW Police force do not want to divert valuable resources away from its real work.

I'm sure there are, but the prostitution industry, like the porn industry, just seems to attract a certain type of person. Prostitution is going to happen anyway so you might as well regulate it and then at least you are able to set certain standards.

edit:

With legalization brings regulation. Normally, regulation entails strict rules concerning the use of condoms, certifying regularly the health status of sex workers and strict rules around the provision of services to minors and intoxicated people. Most if not all legal brothels reserve the right to rufuse services to anyone and sex workers are registered and their terms of conditions of employment are filed with the department. The same workplace laws will apply, so brothels have occupational health & safety obligations, obligations to pay wages, etc etc.

It's still a sleazy industry but at least with regulation there are certain standards which have to be upheld, where there wouldn't be otherwise.

 

Ultimately much of the stigma surrounding the sex industry has disappeared, hence my point that it might be time to just go the whole hog and legalise it totally

Except in the US, it's already a state matter. There's no blanket prohibition on prostitution, and yet, it's not legal anywhere besides counties in NV. I think most people probably have a NIMBY attitude with regard to prostitution.

I can think of another parallel to this that just took place in IL again. Not too long ago, with much fanfare, the Governor of IL signed a state law that legalized video poker as a way to help shore up the state budget shortfall. Except so far, I can't think of a specific county in the state that has signed onto the authorization, and in fact, most communities passed laws that opted out of the state law.

While it was being debated, it had its detractors, but most people thought it would be a good way to generate revenue, until it came time to actually authorize it in their local bar or tavern. It's an interesting aspect of human nature.

EDIT:

thanks, LOH. I thought I remembered the authority, I just inaccurately lumped the agencies together:

The local Council also has powers to enter premises, issue search warrants, conduct investigations an inspections.

Then just go back and every time I said "NSW police," just replace it with "authority of council investigators," and we're on the same sheet of music...

 

When you regulate an industry which was previously illegal, then it certainly adds to the burden of local government in terms of enforcing the regulations. You need to hire more people and create extra bureacracy. Normally, the revenue gained by regulating the industry pays for this added burden though.

 

No, I'd say that people's attitudes toward sex are exactly what they used to be. Also, there's a distinction between porn stars who make a lot of money and prostitutes who don't. I watched this one documentary on the porn industry where this one porn star lives a surprisingly normal life with a husband and kid. She does not strike me as someone who would want to have sex with 20 men a night for lousy pay. My point being that in a porn film, you can be reasonably assured that the act is consensual. Prostitution adds in the factor of poverty and destitution that drives people to resort to it, and I doubt it's something that anybody would want to do if they can help it.