Is Jag Fel a Fascist? also the Empire still evil? *Kyp/Jaina/Jag debators welcome*

Curious question here.

Jagged Fel has grown up in the shadow of the Chiss people who are a totalitarian communistic people with a highly racist society though not to the level of the Empire's more extreme anti-alien prejudices (the extermination campaign of Boba Fett: Agent of Doom, Slavery, ect).

He furthermore has been raised by Baron Soonitor Fel who is a man who believes so strongly in order and the necessity of military rule that he was willing to work for the Imperial government despite once being ordered to butcher 19.5 billion (according to WEG) humans, humanoids, and aliens of other races on the Smuggler's Moon of Nar Shaada.

An order he was quite willing to carry out even if he "didn't like it"

Finally he has been raised in the Shadow of Grand Admiral Thrawn aka Mitty aka Old Red Eyes a man who cloned an army of warriors to take over the galaxy because he believed the freedom-loving rebellion was inefficent to deal with the extra-galactic threat...especially since he made no attempt to warn them of it.

Now it's obvious that Jag Fel is an intelligent, well mannered, concerned, and extremely capable young pilot whose service to the military has thus far (presumably) been entirely free of the atrocities which so characterized the reign of the Emperor and Grand Admiral Thrawn (extreminating a species, enslaving another, Dark Jedi master usage)

But is it truly possible for Jag to escape the propaganda that has been levelled down his throat from his birth? Much ado has been made about the Imperial Remnant and Chiss/Empire being different but can such government's truly escape their pasts?

Even the Imperial Remants most "noble" leader after Moff Saareti (whose nobility is questionable til we get a look at his record) Admiral Pelleon gladly joined up with the Reborn Emperor and the Dark Side Theocracy of Byss. A man who also made his career as a military officer distinguished by being willing to run Wookie slaves from Kashkyyk

Don't get me wrong, from all intents and purposes the Galactic Empire has seemingly changed for the better considerably with the loss of slavery and no longer being able to take worlds under their iron fist without their permission but is a weasal that better than a rapid one?

Though people in France still long for the days of Napoleon, Pinochet still a hero in his homeland, and many in Argentina the Peron era....the atrocities should not be forgotten.

 

Charlemagne19, do you not think that people can change? Sure Pellaeon served the Emperor Reborn or helped enslave Wookiees, but Vader's record was a hundred times worse and he was "redeemed". Kyp Durron destroyed an entire planetary system and was forgiven. Why not give Pellaeon some slack.

 

Im not crazy about Jag, but I dont think that Id call him a Fascist.

 

Communism is ultra-liberalism; everyone should unite for the good of everyone, and everything should be done to increase the well being for everyone. Fascism is ultra-conservatism; everyone of us should unite against them, and we should try to increase our well being even at the expense of their well being. The Empire was fascist, the Chiss are communist.

While systems are totalitarian and so appear alike at first glance, preferring order and safety to freedom and supposed danger, there are subtle differences in their ideals. A communist system welcomes anyone willing to live by their ideals (hence humans like Soontir Fel and Jag Fel have positions of honor among the Chiss) while a fascist system only welcomes those who are like them (so aliens have a greatly reduced stature in the Imperial fleet).

Given that Jag Fel grew up among the Chiss, he?d probably be pro-Communist and pro-Totalitarian, be he is probably not Fascist. The Empire is currently a Totalitarian state that is neither communist nor fascist, though it remains a dictatorship.

 

Actually several sources say that chiss for the most part detest outsiders, and have the largest amount of racial bigotry(thrawn on the other hand had some bigotry himself according to gamer 5), and do not want to get involved with them.(applies to the main chiss empire.)

But thrawn's phalanx the offshoot government on the other hand is far more open to people who want to live in there ideals.

But the thing to remember when talking about the chiss there are actually 2 different chiss governments. Each with varying degrees and beliefs.

 

Thrawn's bigotry is very subtle I think but it is pretty prevalent through all his appearences. The simple idea seems to be that Thrawn appreciates species other than the Chiss only so much as they are willing to tow the line towards his ideals and prove of use to their society.

1 His causal manipulation of the Noghri nad numerous other races for enslavement

2 His assumption that every species is defined by it's art (presumably taking note of varying cultures and time period)

3 His causal murder of the forces sent after the smugglers in order to escape his exiled world

Whenever I read the scene where Thrawn rewards one Lieutenant in Heir to the Empire then murders another one I come to the conclusion that Thrawn looks at the humans around him much like Palov does mice.

Pelleon I'm not sure was a confident and may have been the exception to the rule but he seemed there more for companionship rather than honest tactical evaluation.

In effect he was Grand Admiral Thrawn's dog.

I may be overstating Grand Admiral Thrawn's bigotry by a great deal but looking at the sort of things we see them do I'm not precisely sure we should be so quick to dismiss their darker sides.

And this is the guy who ran the "Official Thrawn is Alive" fanfic which was a 200 page love fest for the Blue guy.

As for regarding Pelleon and redemption something to be considered is the fact that Kyp Duroun and Darth Vader did indeed repent of their crimes. I'm very glad Tales of the New Republic placed a story about Kyp facing judgement for his murdering of so many millions of inhabitants (I'm still curious how many Caridans existed and whether the population was over the 10 million listed in WEG's JA sourcebook) and his obvious remorse and desire to transform.

Also coupled with the fact Kyp was a child.

Perhaps I'm asking too much but it remains that Grand Admiral Pelleon (a appropriate title I think now) doesn't really regret his war against the Galactic Republic or in the words of Doctor Zeus on the Nazis "We're sorry, not sorry they started the war, but sorry we lost it!"

In Spectre of the Past Admiral Pelleon was in fact preparing for a reknewed offensive against the galactic Republic provided the cloaking device firing mechanism was able to work.

While comments against the Emperor and other dead leaders are obviously tolerated in the new Empire as ofSpectre my curiousity abounds whether the Admiral would still be waving the Banner of the New Order had the Reborn Emperor proved victorious

So the question I suppose comes down to it, is present behavior (I believe the Empire still to be a totaltarian, authoritarian dictatorship with political persecution if "He may be a ******* but he's our *******" as the USA has been known to put it for the Vong war.

 

Leave the chiss out of this, what did they do to you?

No really, the chiss government is basically a higher based clan oriented system comprised of houses which deal with different stuff, they are not comunist because they do not uphold ideals of marxism.

Seretti is a good man, he has much to learn but he is worthy. Pellaeon is old, and will serve the dominent military, he stuck with the Empire, he has his reasons for hating the Republic, but the Empire is his.

Flennic is greedy, and would like no better to control the council of Moffs and the Empire.

Moff Crowal is your commen female Imperial, a bi***. She sees the Vong as no threat and works for her own power.

 

Well, considering Jag is now renegade and working for the NR...

*shrug*

He's flying with Jaina the semi-darksider and Kyp the butcherer of worlds. That certainly makes him look like a good person.

Might I stress that, uh, despite his possibly facist leanings, he's a mentally healthy and sharp minded guy with heroic tendencies who's only two concerns are 1) saving the galaxy and 2) getting into Jaina's pants. Very harmless, if you think aobut it.

 

Jag is losing his political afiliation he is a rogue, a traitor, too much like his father. H ehas no ties to the glory of the Empire, so just becuase he is romantically linked with Jaina will mean nothing in the Empires terms.

 

Fel is a rogue, he supports the house of Thrawn, whch in chiss standerds is rogue.

He is a traitor to the galaxy, because his father is one, and since Im in abad mood he is.

Pellaeon desarves GA, simply because he has the longest leg of service and he is tactically smart.

 

At present voting power of the Galactic Empire belongs to the Council Moffs given that centralized authority through Emperor Palpatine, Lord Vader, the Imperial Ruling Council, and even Grand Moff Hissa's short lived Mofference are a memory

hence they ARE the Emperor for all that it's worth

 

I have long legs and I'm smart. Can I be a Grand Admiral, too?

 

Yeah chissdude...when I'm in a bad mood...you should see what happens to the whole lot of them!

The Chiss government is pretty fascist. The Hand of Thrawn is xenophobic. But Jag isnt flying with them so much any more as with the NR, so if he does hate working with aliens, he's hiding it well.

 

Other way around, the Chiss on Csilla are xenophobic, at least alot more then Thrawn Phelenxe.

 

No, I do not believe that Jagged Fel is a fascist.

 

no for me too

 

The thought of Jag Fel being a fascist brings to mind the Volksstrum during WWII. In the last days of Hitler's Germany, mainly during the defense of Koningsburg and Berlin, Hitler had the german army press into its ranks thousands of children to fight against the soviets. Were these childern automatically fascists? No. They were given no other option. Just as Jag Fel was forced into the Chiss Military to keep Soontir Fel from betraying the Chiss.

 

In the last days of Hitler's Germany, mainly during the defense of Koningsburg and Berlin, Hitler had the german army press into its ranks thousands of children to fight againsts soviets. Were these childern automatically fascists? No. They were given no other option. Just as Jag Fel was forced into the Chiss Military to keep Soontir Fel from betraying the Chiss. - Andy17

In DJ, Jag said he saw himself as a Chiss and he expressed strong concerns about the Chiss gov. and in Red Flame, Blue Sky, he cursed the NR for "once again, [reducing] a corner of his ordered world to chaos." Also, it was Jag himself who approached his father about a commission to the Chiss Academy. And, he has expressed his own admiration for Thrawn, even considering him a hero. It sounds to me that he is more than a reluctant soldier, compelled to serve in order to keep his father faithful. Yet, I don't know if he is really a facist. I'm curious about where his real loyaties lie. Right now of course, the order of the day is survival and that means fighting the Vong. But what about later? What would Jag Fel choose if the Chiss objective after or even during the War against the Vong were in opposition to the people he now serves with? I would like to see that area explored a little more.

 

Despite his government affiliation...

I think most important to him are his family, his friends, and the safety of the galaxy. Not in the same order. But he is fully willing to sacrifice his life for those tangible reasons.

As long as he's a good person, with good ethics, I'm not complaining.

 

After rereading Red Sky, Blue Flame tonight I fully understand your point Lianna. That part about Jag being a hostage of the chiss stood out in my mind. However in the broader range of things it is still true that just because you fight for something does not mean that you fully support it, which was the main point I was trying to make.

 

No Jag is not a fascist. The Empire is not really evil anymore.

 

Grrrrr....You people just don't seem to understand, do you?

Jag is not affiliated in any way with the ggovernment of Csilla!!! He has no affiliation with the CEDF, or any houses besids Thrawn for that matter.

 

I'm not sure the Imperial Remnant is any better personally.

* Do they still arrest people for political affiliation?

Most likely

* Does the average citazen still have no say whatsoever in their government?

From what I can tell yes

* Do they still keep an enormous network of spies, informers, and torture droids ready for their own citaznry

undoubtably

It may no longer be able to practice wholesale genocide and conquest but I'm certain that abuses are still incredible through every government level