Is Tyranus known to the Jedi?

Movie only:

After AotC, do the Jedi know that Dooku became a Sith? How? If not, how does Palpatine know it in RotS?

 

Yeah the Jedi do know based on ep III.
Not only Palpatine saying it in ROTS and therefore the Jedi must have known too but Obi Wan says to Padme that after the death of Dooku Anakin became the new apprentice.

 

So, this discovery was off-screen?

 

Yeah it must have been, in fact he's only called Tyrannus by Sidious personally, and Fett mentions he was hired by a man by Tyranus. If the Jedi knew of his Sith name it makes Jango look even more suspicious than he already does being the clone template and fighting with the CIS. Therefore, I assume the Jedi know he's a sith, but not his sith name.

One issue with Dooku being created so late in the process I assume.

 

But when do the Jedi know that? Only after Palpatine tells them? Or ever since the end of AotC?

 

I'm not up to date on CW EU, save the shows themselves. But Dooku being a Sith can't be too big a secret, he told Hondo in Dooku Captured.
Yoda mentions he joined the darkside in AOTC, but darkside doesn't mean Sith Lord. I assume they either intercepted transmissions naming him as a Sith or had spies or information received from prisoners. I'll have a look on the Wook as I'm interested.

 

The Jedi are a little dense. They know about Sidious, Tyranus, and Dooku, but they simply can't make the stretch to connect them. It isn't hard.

Dooku left the Jedi and the Republic circa 32 BBY.
The clone army was ordered circa 32 BBY. Sifo-Dyas died shortly thereafter in that same year
Darth Maul died in 32 BBY, requiring Sidious to find a new apprentice.
Dooku says that the Senate is under the control of Darth Sidious.
Jango Fett says that a man named Tyranus contracted him for the cloning job circa 32 BBY.

Now, if Jango was hired by a man named Tyranus to be the source for a clone project started by Sifo-Dyas, there are two conclusions the Jedi could make:
1.) That "Tyranus" was a pseudonym that Sifo-Dyas took. It is unlikely he would choose such a sinister moniker, being a Jedi, so this is unlikely.
2.) That they are separate people.
corollary 1: Tyranus was an associate of Sifo-Dyas's
corollary 2: Tyranus usurped the project.
Corollary 2, scenario 2 would be more likely, as Tyranus surfaces to recruit Jango around the time Sifo-Dyas dies. This therefore calls into question Jango's true allegiance, as well as Tyranus's. The Jedi never state what kind of personality Sifo-Dyas had, but if he was comfortable enough to use his true name when ordering millions of clones, I think its fair to say he wouldn't be adverse to doing so when finding the source.

Now, there are three more points that the Jedi should have considered:
3.) Jango is working for the Confederacy, specifically as Dooku's enforcer.
4.) Dooku reveals himself to know both the identity of the Sith Master, as well as his own personal knowledge of Sith power. This is arcane and shadowy knowledge that almost no one knows. Obi-Wan didn't even know Darth Maul's name and he was the one who defeated him. Dooku throws around Sidious's name, and Obi-Wan just let's it slide.
5.) Dooku left just around the time Darth Maul died.

Therefore, it's fairly easy to see that Dooku is Sidious's Sith apprentice. Moreover, Jango's allegiance to Dooku makes it very likely that Dooku and Tyranus are one and the same. Therefore, Sidious order Dooku as Tyranus to contract Jango to be the clone template. Dooku had previously left the Jedi, and killed Sifo-Dyas or a least usurped his project after his death. Meanwhile, Sidious recruited him after Obi-Wan killed his apprentice. Therefore, Jango is truly loyal to the CIS, which, being led by Sidious's new apprentice, is also loyal to the Sith. The Sith, apparently, control the Senate. The army is for the Republic, but if the Senate is controlled by the Sith, the army is really for the Sith.

Therefore, the Jedi are far too dumb to live. Twenty minutes of analysis. This is all from information Obi-Wan was told or knew during Episode II. It is circumstantial, but the timing, all of which was mentioned to Obi-Wan, is perfect. He really should be have been more on the ball. Worst. detective. ever.

 

Okay, this is not about EU or judging any character. I'm only asking (movies only) if the Jedi are supposed to know that Dooku is a Sith, and if yes, when did this happen.

 

Yeah, but Obi-Wan and Padme were sworn off-screen to secrecy when it came to the identity of Mal and that he was a Sith, so clearly Obi-Wan did know Maul's name. Also, just because Dooku knew Sidious' name doesn't nessecarilly mean he is the Sith apprentice. Two reason's I think of as to why it would actually mean he is the apprentice are 1) Obi-Wan believes he's lying until it is discovered at a later time he is not and 2) Dooku is a leader of the CIS and is learning things from spies because he needs to know things from a strategic standpoint. so knwing somethig like that a Sith Lord is in control of some senators or his name could simply be nothing more than gathered intelligence by a former Jedi.

 

Well movies only yes the Jedi do find out he is a Sith Lord, but not his name.
As to when it's either between films or they just think he's joined the Sith based on the events of AOTC.

 

I wasn't using any EU. These are all little bits of information from AOTC itself. And your two scenarios are far too complex to turn to without further evidence. The chance that Dooku, knowing by name an individual who few know, is the Sith apprentice is much more likely. Why would he lie? What could he possibly gain from it? As for this "a spy heard it" idea, again, no evidence supports this needlessly complex theory. The evidence is circumstantial, but it supports that Dooku is the Sith apprentice. It is the most parsimonious explanation.

 

But in the context of the scene a spy is just as likely as Dooku being the Sith apprentice himself, even if it is overly complex. Later on then yeah, certain actions such as Force Lightning make being the aprentice more likely.

 

But then again, use the dark side doesn't mean Sith.

 

Obi-Wan was hanging out with Yoda and Mace in the Council chambers immediately after that happened, yet it took them three years to piece together an obvious truth from evidence Obi-Wan collected over the course of a couple weeks. Neither of them asked "Hey Obi-Wan, how's that investigation going?" even though they are actively searching for the Sith and have known of their existence for more than a decade.

And it's actually not as likely, because with the same evidence, the Dooku is the sith apprentice theory is more parsimonius, as so:

Dooku tells Obi-Wan Sidious controls the Senate --> Dooku knows Sidious's identity --> Dooku knows Sidious's identity because Dooku is Sidious's apprentice.

vs.

Dooku tells Obi-Wan Sidious controls the Senate --> Dooku knows a spy --> The spy has information --> That information comes from a source --> That source knows Sidious's alter ego --> ??? --> Sidious is Palpatine.

Even without the ???, pathway two is more complex, even with the same amount of information.

And yes, use of the Dark Side does not necessarily mean Sith, but combine use of arcane dark side knowledge, plus knowledge of the Sith Lord, not to mention his knowledge of said Sith Lord's infiltration of the Senate, and one can safely conclude, without it being said outright, that Dooku is the Sith apprentice.

 

Or because Gunray told him everything, as he stated on that scene.

 

Yeah scenario one is based on, let's face it baseless accusations. Yeah, in the context with EU it makes more sense, but without that context they can't just assume Dooku is a Sith apprentice based on the fact that he knows Sidious is Palpatine. And as Alexrd said, and as Dooku even said striaght to Obi-Wan, Gunray told him about Sidious.

 

The both of you are selectively using evidence only from that conversation. When Obi-Wan is in a position to report his findings to the Jedi Council, he knows two things:

1.) Dooku knows about Sidious at a very intimate level, enough to know that he has personally infiltrated the ranks of the Republic government.
2.) He has knowledge of dark side powers.

Why is it such a hard leap to make and simply assume, for the time being, that Dooku is in fact the Sith apprentice? It's very easy to make this connection. Accusations and arrests are made on circumstantial evidence all the time. The two of you are looking for Dooku to walk into the Temple and start screaming to Yoda "I AM A SITH LORD!" over and over and for Yoda to say "Duhh, understand finally, I do. DOOKU is a SITH apprentice!"

 

Arrests are made on circumstantial evidence, yes, and they also rarely lead to an indictment, let alone a conviction. We aren't looking for Dooku to come right out and say, "I'm the Sith Apprentce," but we (and the Jedi for that matter) can't just say well Well we have 2 and we have 4, so the missing number must be 2, when in fact it could be 1 and 1.

 

Based on what Gunray told him.

And yes, he has dark side powers, but all the Jedi know is that he fell, not that he's a Sith Lord.

 

Actually, most convictions are built on circumstantial evidence. Don't believe everything you see on CSI. Not every city has a crime lab that can process dried bodily fluids from a hooker's corpse in twenty minutes.

Obi-Wan, if he were to accuse Dooku of being the Sith Lord, would have an ironclad case immediately after returning from Geonosis. Oh, and the only other individual capable of hurling lightning? Yeah, he was a Sith Lord. Movie information; no EU.

Now, consider the fact that the Jedi know what constitutes Sith power; they, upon hearing Obi-Wan's account of the battle, should have immediately picked up on the fact that Dooku was a Sith. The Jedi had plenty to go on. They were just being lazy old buffoons.

 

Actually I was studying to be a lawyer at one point, plus I had to study detective skills as a result, so I know what it takes to convict someone.

As for the Force Lightning thing, where in the movie, chronologically speaking, did any Jedi see a Sith use Force Lightning? Maul is the only Sith they had dealt with before Dooku(and he was unconfirmed) and he did not use Force Lightning. It wasn't until after Dooku died that Palpatine used Force Lightning.

All they can safely assume from the Obi-Wan/Yoda/Anakin vs Dooku battle was Dooku had fallen to the Darkside, not that he was a Sith.

 

Movie only knowledge. The idea that Dark siders in general can use Force lightning is never presented within the films. The only individuals to use force lightning are both sith lords. Therefore, one cannot conclude that dark jedi can use Force lightning when they have never done so, and the idea is never presented as such.

Moreover, the fact that he fell to the Dark Side, was talking about Sith Lords, was associated with people who knew the Sith Lord, and knew powers commonly used by Sith, should have really given them a clue that Dooku really was a guy they should have been pursuing more actively. Moreover, Gunray didn't know half there was to know about Sidious. Sidious only promised him that the Republic would not interfere on Naboo. He made no mention of his position within the Senate, or the amount of direct control he had over its actions. For all Gunray knew, Sidious was a shadowy underworld type figure and Sidious kept it that way. He did not mention how many senators are under his direct control, nor did he even suggest he had a supermajority, as Dooku suggests to Obi-Wan. There is no way Dooku got that information from Gunray. And Obi-Wan really should be savvier than that. Would Darth Sidious, mastermind extraordinaire, really trust such vital information to a group that dirty cowards to a man? I think not, and Obi-Wan should have realized this as well.

As for the Tyranus issue. Obi-Wan knew a man named Tyranus was the one who recruited Jango Fett. But Jango Fett has been a Confederate enforcer. He tried to kill a senator, tried to kill a Jedi Knight, and is at Dooku's right hand. Why Obi-Wan didn't add up that, if Tyranus and Dooku are different individuals, they are connected by the fact that all three are associated to the Separatists, via Jango. This should have at least alerted Obi-Wan to the fact that the clones were not all that they seemed.

Let me map it out. We start out with Sifo-Dyas.

Sifo-Dyas:
1. is last seen c. 32 BBY
2. orders a clone army on Kamino around this time; confirmed by the clones, the oldest of whom are ten, grown at 2x aging.
-- Does not use a pseudonym when doing this, in direct violation of Republic law
3. "Tyranus" knows about the clones and recruits Jango Fett c. 32 BBY. This has to be the case because, until Jango was recruited, the clones could not be grown.
-- He could be Sifo-Dyas.
-- Not likely. If he didn't assume a false name when contracting the army, contracting the prime clone would not have necessitated one either.
4. it is known by the Jedi that Sifo-Dyas dies shortly thereafter, whether at "Tyranus's" hand or not is unknown to Obi-Wan.

The story then shifts to Count Dooku
5. leaves the Jedi c. 32 BBY, after the death of Qui-Gon, his apprentice. Reclaims title of Count.
-- Sifo-Dyas dies around this time.
-- "Tyranus" recruits Jango
6. became a political enemy of the Republic in the next ten years.
7. Jango Fett is under his employ.
8. Nute Gunray is revealed to be under his employ
-- Jango Fett is revealed to have accepted a contract for Gunray, making his connection to the CIS stronger
9. Dooku reveals his knowledge of the Sith Lord in the Senate.
-- Gunray could have given him this information, but this story's veracity is suspect, considering he had every reason to betray Sidious when he was being indicted by the Galactic Courts three times and refused to betray the Sith Lord.
10. Reveals his deep knowledge of the Dark Side.
-- He could just

 

Alright, yes, in the movies only Sith use Lightning, but can you name one Sith that the Jedi see before Dooku, again movie knowledge only, that uses Lightning. They never fought with Sidious, or even seen him in person until ROTS. So they would have no actual knowledge that only Sith, again movie knowledge, use Force Lightning. You are looking at that as a viewer of the movie and not as a partaker of the events that does not have the perspective of the movie watcher. Yes, the idea that a non-Sith Darksider in general can use Force Lightning is never presented in the films, but it's never presented that they couldn't.

Yes, Dooku was associated with with people that knew te Sith Lord, and knew Darkside powers, but that wouldn't neccesarily mean he was directly associated as a Sith. Let me put it to you like this, I live in New York, I knew someone who was related to Joe Torre, so by the logic you use, I was a New York Yankee when he managed the New York Yankees, and was a Los Angeles Dodger when he managaed there. Obviously I wasn't, but just because I knew people who were associated with him and that I knew how to play baseball does not mean that I knew him nor played for any of his teams. Replace me with Dooku, my friend with Gunray, and Torre with Palpatine and you have the same basic structure, have you not?

As for getting info from Gunray, we don't really know exactly what he knew, but take this into account, how confidnet he was that he was going to take Naboo. Sidious had him so reassured that he(gunray) had his bases covered that he seemingly felt he had no possible chance of losing, or losing as big as he did. Sidious had to do/tell him something to get him to feel that way. Again, we don't really know that something, and to base it on pure movie knowledge we probbly never will, but he had to have known a great deal of knowledge to be so confident and then to feel so betrayed afterwards to go crying to Dooku and spilling his secrets. Maybe he didn't say anything at the trial because he thought Sidious would always protect him due to his influence. Then when he(Sidious) didn't, gunray told Dooku everything. You may say why not tell the Senate? Why would he? Why would they believe him? He just waged an attack against the Republic, now he wantwed to take down with him whoever he could. That may be the way Gunray felt they would see it and just went striaght to Dooku.

As for seeing Dooku with Fett and that leading to then assuming it meant Tyranus/Dooku are the same, remembr Fett is a freelance mercenary/bounty hunter. His loyalty is to the highest bidder. for all the Jedi know, Tyranus contracted Fett to be the clone template. This also incorporated training the clones a bit, but for the most part this was a do nothing job, or at least some real easy credits. The work load was most likely not a whole lot. Back to the point though, Tyranus contracts Fett to be th template, he does that and now Dooku comes along and wants an Enforcer. The event could be unrelated and based on the order of the jobs, you can't say one is directly linked based on how Fett worked for one guy first, then another after so the first and second guy must be the same.

As for the use of the clones, that has little to do with the topic.

 

The timing is far too convenient for it to likely have been coincidental. The fact that ths laundry list of key events all took place in one year should be extremely suspicious. In fact, Tyranus really isn't that big a piece in the whole thing. What really should have tipped Obi-Wan off to how suspicious the whole affair was was the fact that the template for the clone army was working for a guy who left the Jedi and went rogue around the same time the guy who originally commissioned the project bit it.

EDIT: Just to preempt you, yes I know there's nothing theoretically stopping it from being a coincidence, but that shouldn't stop the Jedi from seriously considering the fact that Dooku is a Sith Lord. All possibilities should be considered, and they obviously weren't.

 

I'm not saying the whole, the clone template just happens to be working for the leader of the enemy at the time we discover we even have the option of clones is not the the bigesst and brightest red flag ever, even I can't deny that, but that fact of whether or not Tyranus and Dooku are the same person isn't neccesarily as obvivious as that. As for Sifo-Dyas dying at the time Dooku left, we don't know if any Jedi died around the same time other than Qui-Gon who died within the same relative time span. But given how dangerous the life of a Jedi is, an untimely death of a Jedi is probably a fairly "common" event.(not including the Clone Wars because obviously they are going to die in a war)