ST It’s just… mind-boggling there was no plan

The fact that Disney bought one of the most sacred film franchises in history and rushed into a trilogy with no overall plan is just crazy to me. One of the fundamental parts of story telling is knowing where the story is going to end. Making things up as you go along almost never goes well.

Yes, there is one exception to the rule, and that’s Vader being Luke’s father. This was a brilliant retcon that actually made sense upon further rewatch of ANH. The other retcon was Leia being Luke’s sister, and I think most fans can agree this was a sloppy tacked-on plot point, and generally the weakest point of the original trilogy.

The Prequels from the very beginning knew where they were going, and that’s what makes them so satisfying as a trilogy to me, and imo a big reason so many fans look at them more favorably.

Now with 7-9 of a story with six films in the book, the last thing you should do is not plan ahead. But we know for a fact that JJ Abrams had no plan when writing TFA, throwing out lazy mystery boxes with no plans of answering them and not being sure about major parts of the characters’ backstory. Which is a little more unforgivable in 2015 compared to 1977, when Star Wars wasn’t even sure it’d have a sequel.

Come TLJ, Rian Johnson basically threw everything out the window and just said nothing mattered, and that everything TFA “set-up” (I use this very loosely) had no answer. By the end of the film, there was no where to go with the story.

By the time TROS had to be written, JJ Abrams seemed to have given up, hastily writing in Darth Sidious as a last-ditch, non-foreshadowed effort to salvage what was left of the trilogy. He also haphazardly made Rey a Palpatine and basically undid most of the stuff that Rian Johnson did in 8, making it seem like a tug-of-war between two directors instead of an actual cohesive vision.

I don’t know, but I’m legitimately curious to see the consensus about this, because I think it’s pretty obvious this is the most glaring problem with these movies as a trilogy.

 

The ST is a result of 3 factors IMO:

1) Development. Without doubt the biggest, and most fundamental issue with the ST is that they weren't developed nearly half as well as they should of been... which is a direct consequence of them being rushed to market by Disney to recoup their investment. That's Disney. It's all about the bottom line.

2) The lack of George Lucas. They didn't go with Lucas' treatments. From what we know and from what we've read, Lucas' vision for the sequels was much more consistent and connected to his previous 6 films. It had an arc. DLF should have worked with Lucas directly to get those treatments to screen. Instead, they used some of the Lucas hate to fuel hype for the ST... "real sets" etc. This was short-term tactics, to maximise BO for a single film, rather than the strategic planning required to tell an original and satisfying new story... which could open up the SW galaxy.

3) JJ Abrams. JJ Abrams is probably the worst possible choice (other than Michael Bay perhaps) for giving creative control to kick start a new era of SW. He's way to corporate, he has very limited creative intelligence, he's a very unsophisticated storyteller/filmmaker, he blatantly had little interest in the narrative of Lucas' films (or developing it) and he hasn't any interest in progressing cinema, as an art form, or 'Star Wars' as a cinematic concept. All in my opinion of course.

 

I don't know why it's such a suprise, there wasn't really a concrete plan for the originals or prequels either.

 

The hubris of it is just unbelievable.

I'll quote a comment I made recently.

Even worse than the lack of planning was just the lack of thought and care put into it while they were making it. Sometimes awareness, thought and reflection, drafting, revision, editing and oversight, can make up for a lack of planning. They had none. They were clearly completely unaware of what they were really doing and the consequences that their ill-considered decisions would have, and they had no idea how much trouble they were in until well after the second movie was made.

They had to know the tremendous responsibility they had, they had to feel the weight of it. Didn't they? Nah. Never underestimate the lack of humility in people in these positions.

 

That's not accurate. Lucas had been developing his films for quite some time before they went into production. If you mean by 'concrete plan' a shooting script, then yes they were not developed to that extent.

 

Truth. Read some of the meeting notes about the OT and the PT. It's astonishing how much wasn't planned out. The thing that separates the PT/OT from the ST is that you had Lucas overseeing it all...even if he didn't have everything specifically mapped out.

 

There's a big difference here. Lucas had vision. Somethings were planned and some obviously not. But in the end, it all adhered to a larger vision that he had. And he worked towards that vision making sense.

The ST writers thought they could do better than the PT. They wanted some OT magic. They thought they could do the same 'make it up as you go' and found out how that only works if you have a larger vision. And it's quite obvious that they did not.

 

They paid the price for their lack of vision...

Lucas may not have had it all worked out, but he had the vision.

The other problem is they thought they could do it better than Lucas, more efficiently than Lucas, etc. Except there's no soul there and that is the real problem. It's all burnished edges and Marvel style jokes.

 

Right. Lucas not planning everything out was because SW was untested. No one thought it would go beyond the first movie.

The creators of the ST knew they were making 3 movies. They knew the story had to be 3 movies. There is absolutely no excuse for not planning that out to some degree, with some over arching vision.

 

The OT and PT are as planned out as film trilogies go (unless direct adaptations of books). I can't really think of another trilogy/film series that got planned out in that much detail prior to production of the first film, because the studio system usually accommodate that kind of 'budgeted' extensive development. Lucas planned for it to be 9 films, but ultimately condensed into 6. The basic bones were always there, but ultimately the detail came in as part of the pre-production activity... but fortunately for Lucas he was never on the stopwatch as far as that initial development was concerned.

 

I think they succeeded

 

At what? Having more vision than the OT?

I'm not sure how anyone could make that statement since the ST is nothing more than a lazy hack job of the OT. The ST has no vision, that it doesn't swipe from the OT.

 

The ST definitely rehashes the OT, but it gets even that wrong. It comes from a flawed viewpoint of what the writers think made the OT great instead of what actually did.

The writers seemed to take criticism of the prequels- a perceived lack of practical effects and humor, and shoved both in our face from the outset of TFA. Lucas used effects to further the story- whether practical or special. And the humor from the Lucas films, particularly the OT, came from the in-universe interactions between the characters. It flowed naturally, and therefore was appropriate for the story. The humor in the ST is extremely meta and used at inappropriate times. When Rey knows about the Kessel Run for some reason because the audience knows, it makes it feel like the characters are coming at the story from an out-of-universe perspective- because we the audience know about the Kessel Run line from ANH, the main character who really should have absolutely zero knowledge brings it up for a cheap laugh. It’s so meta, and one of the worst aspects in writing in several long running franchises.

 

I'll jump in here to say - succeeded in telling a fun, thematically interesting story that rounds off the narrative of the first six movies in a satisfying way

Frankly, I've never really cared about the fact that there wasn't a day 1 plan (or more accurately based on what I've read, that any existing plans that were made weren't followed up on)

I don't think Abrams is the best director around, but I think he's a good ideas guy. With TFA, I think Kasdan helped him lay some strong groundwork, and while I don't know how much of TROS's story is him or Terrio, my inference is that the general direction of the story was Abrams's idea with plot points fleshed out by Terrio

I also disagree with the assertion that he clashed with or undid Rian Johnson's efforts (and so does Johnson himself, if I recall)

 

The original point was that the ST lacked vision, even before it lacked planning. I thought TFA had fun moments. That still doesn't mean I think it's a great SW movie.

And it doesn't round off the narrative of the first 6 movies. It simply regurgitates them. The ST ends in the same narrative spot as EP6. Nothing has progressed at all. Except the Skywalkers are all dead now.

 

I disagree with that assessment

In terms of worldbuilding, it's true that IX puts us in the same place as VI - the threat to freedom is rendered inert for the time, there's one known living Jedi who could go on to restore the Jedi, and Palpatine is dead again. I don't necessarily consider this to be a bad thing. Perhaps unimaginative, but also sadly realistic

In terms of thematic relevance, however, I frankly couldn't be more satisfied with how things went. The entire first third of the saga is about how a Skywalker makes selfish and wrong decisions out of a delusion that doing so would give him the power to save someone he cares for, and in the process, he instigates decades of authoritarian regimes, genocide, and mass destruction, because he just couldn't accept death. The middle third shows us that same man being able to accept his own death to save the life of another loved one and undo his mistake

With the final third, we get sort of a metaphorical redo. Ben Solo's character arc spends two and a half movies focusing on his commitment to the dark side being hindered by his inability to accept the death of those he loves (IE, his parents) until he can accept what's happened, forgive himself and make the choice to do what's right, and ultimately help Rey to destroy Palpatine forever and, like Anakin, sacrifice his own life to give Rey's back to her

It's a tonal and thematic continuity that I very much enjoy

 

There shouldn't have been an attempt to redo Anakin's story at all.

 

There is a certain poignancy in Anakin losing Padme by selfishly trying to keep her alive for himself, then Ben brings Rey back to life by turning back… selflessly letting go and sacrificing his life to give Rey back to the galaxy with no benefit to himself.

 

I feel the same.

Additionally, the PT is clearly more cohesive as a trilogy/over arching story. Yet, I generally prefer the ST films individually compared to the PT films.

Some fans would argue that there should have been a better attempt at telling Darth Vader's backstory.

 

I'm sorry, what? "accept the death of those he loves" - you mean the deaths/murder HE CAUSED?

Also, it's not "Ben Solo" 's character arc we're supposed to be following, he's not the protagonist, Rey is!

Besides, Palpatine was already destroyed forever in Return of the Jedi and, while I have not read Dark Empire, I think the idea was stupid beyond belief and resurrecting it for a movie was even more ridiculous.

What benefit is Rey to the galaxy again? Because we're going to find out in movie 10 that Palpatine is still alive somehow, I'm sure.

What the ST does is turn the Skywalkers into a blight on the galaxy and it's insane Rey would even want to call herself one (not even getting into whether it's a good idea from a story perspective).

 

I don't think that's poignant, I think it's a disservice to Anakin's story and character. It makes it seem like Kylo's story is somehow an improvement, like he succeeded where Anakin failed, like he's "Anakin done right". Just like Rey is made to be the "better Luke". Both were bad choices.

 

It may sound ironic but I don’t think DLF would be dumb enough to bring Palpatine back again.

On Rey’s benefit to the galaxy, Rey is a Jedi, take it or leave it she is the Order’s future.

Anakin’s selfishness destroyed the order when he joined Sidious, then the last Skywalker rejecting darkness and a Palpatine turning out good brings it back.

I do wish Luke was still the one to do it. Besides Luke and Leia there are indeed not any positives for the family thanks to the ST.

 

Glad you enjoy.

That's wasn't the point I was arguing. Which again was about planning and vision. I disagree that there is world-building (neither JJ or RJ cared about such things) nor any thematic originality in the ST. It's just aping the OT. Some parts better than others. Some parts more obvious than others. And even before Ep 9, the ST was sending us in the same exact direction as the OT because the entire premise of the ST is predicated on JJ's love for ANH, and setting the stage of a galaxy that's supposed to be 30 years down the road, as being back to ANH all over again. It's great to point out that 'history repeats itself'. Yes. It does. In reality. That theme, that idea, still doesn't make a story automatically great. Repeating every single damn plot point is not history repeating itself because no one learned the lessons of the previous trilogy.