"It is such a quiet thing, to fall. But far more terrible is to admit it."

This thread is an outgrowth of some discussions we've been having over at the SOS thread on the nature of falling to the dark side and coming back from it. What makes a fall? What is simply a dalliance? Do there need to be dark acts to fall, or merely a dark mindset? Where do intentions come in? Did Luke really fall? Did Quin really fall (both times)?

I'll also throw in a bonus question: what is redemption? What is it that pushes one back into the light? Was Malak redeemed as of his death?

Note: if you don't accept the dark side's existence, go away. Seriously; this thread is dealing with big enough questions already that we don't need this to devolve into that, so we're working from the premise that a dark side does exist.

Let's also try to keep armchair philosophy restricted: I'd like to look at what SW says about it primarily; of course our own interpretations will enter into it, but we shouldn't stray too far from the source material. So if you want to say that Vader was never really redeemed, sorry.

 

I think that in general, falling to the Dark Side is the same as becoming evil in the real world. It's something that happens gradually and without much in the way of realization for many people. Jedi are the exception as they are able to feel the darkness in their souls as it comes to pass.

"Falling" must be consciously chosen even as the Dark Side's corruption causes clouded thinking but this is no different than many people in the world. It's just Jedi thought control makes the change seems much more radical when they 'lose control.'

 

I haven't got much time now, but I'll just say that Malak was not redeemed at the end, especially if you compare what happened with people like Ulic and Vader. He realises he's made mistakes, but has not done enough to show that he has rejected the dark side.

 

What's that quote from. It's familiar...like something out of a dream...

 

Kreia.

 

I do not think Luke fell.

As for Quin, I think he fell. He did many terrible acts without any remorse. Luke allowed bad things to happen, but never carried out any of those deeds himself.

Most of the time, the falling is obvious. Then every once in awhile there's people who walk the line. I do not believe Yodas "forever will it dominate your destiny" because there's proof in the films that it does not.

 

I always thought that it was a more metaphorical domination of one's destiny -- that once one dabbled in the dark side, the person would have to face that for the rest of their life. Like alcoholism, it is something that can be cast off but you're never 100% free of the aftereffects.

 

I do think that Luke fell to the Dark Side, but it was the most pathetic turning I've ever seen. Ulic too. I'm so glad that comics these days aren't as vapid and shallow as the old ones.

 

Ulic killed Satal in rage, was seduced by Aleema, and decided to join Exar Kun.

What was pathetic about it?

 

IIRC, didn't Ulic really fall offscreen before he killed Satal and stuff? Just seemed lame.

 

No, he didn't "fall, fall" until he accepted the power of the sith.

 

Havac, I don't have a lot of time, so I hope you don't mind if I just repost some of our conversation from the SOS thread:

Havac
I think it was more the idea of "forever will it dominate your destiny." Luke went to the dark side, and there will be consequences, it will be something he will have to be wary of for the rest of his life. Luke has thrown off the dark side, but he's still feeling its aftereffects.

But see, I don't believe that Luke Skywalker was truly a darksider. He certainly didn't commit the evil acts that every other darksider has ever committed. The only darkside power he used was the doppleganger, and that was done to protect Leia and Han, not for himself. Luke didn't kill or torture innocents. He didn't devastate worlds. In fact, if he hadn't been on Byss, more beings of the galaxy would have died and more worlds would have been destroyed because there would have been no one to wreck the World Devastators or to sabotage the Emperor's plans. So while I agree that Luke was very foolish to risk everything by going to Byss to learn about the darkside and defeat the Emperor from within, I don't agree that Luke was evil or did evil things. So I don't think he was ever truly a darksider. He skirted the edges, yes. Did he fall? No, I don't believe he did. He was certainly no Darth Vader or Darth Revan or Lumiya or Dooku or Darth Bane or even Kyp.

Havac
Windy: To what extent, though, is the dark side simply actions, and to what extent is it attitude and mindset? Had Anakin never killed the younglings, but simply been willing to, would he have been any less dark side?

But there's a difference: Luke not only didn't kill innocents, but he was never willing to do so either. So I see his mindset as very different from that of Anakin.

I don't think that just getting angry now and then is enough to make one a darksider. All human beings get angry from time to time and I doubt that Jedi are any different.

Again, I think Luke was FOOLISH to learn from a Sith Lord. I think he was taking an enormous risk that never should have been taken. Because of his father, he knew that the dark side was terribly dangerous. But being foolish isn't the same as being dark, in my opinion.


Havac:
Luke fell, IMHO. He didn't fall as far as most others, and he recovered from it better, but he still fell. That doesn't mean he was evil -- I don't think he was -- but he fell.

I equate the dark side with true evil. Because doesn't everyone give in to emotions now and then and get a little angry? No one is perfect all the time. But I don't consider everyone to be a darksider despite their flaws. I feel that to be a darksider, one must truly do evil deeds and do them over and over again. That's why I don't feel that Luke fell to the darkside in DE. He didn't commit horrible acts. Even though Anakin Skywalker killed women and children in AotC, he still wasn't called a darksider. And that's WAY, WAY , WAY beyond anything Luke did on Byss.

Maybe we have different opinions of what it means to truly fall to the darkside. But it seems to me that if we use your definition, you could probably say that every Jedi knight in the entire NJO has fallen to the dark side at least once.

Havac
I agree. However, to go back to Quin, Quin wanted to kill that one senator. He wanted it, he really, really wanted it. He got talked down by Mace Windu. Does that make the emotions he felt at the time any less dark?

I just don't see that dark emotions alone automatically make someone a darksider. As I said, all human beings have dark emotions from time to time. It's part of being human. Ben Kenobi had very dark emotions when he was fighting Darth Maul. He was even fighting him in hatred and anger. Does that make him a darksider?

I think that to truly fall to the darkside, it has to be a conscious choice, a conscious decision to BE a darksider, and to do evil deeds; and it has to be followed up by

 

To "fall to the Dark Side" means a subordination of your own will to that of the Dark Side's.

In general, this means being a scumbag. Getting pissed off easily, hurting others, disregarding other life, etc. The usual things people associate with being "evil".

There are varying degrees of the above. Palpatine is far more associated with the latter of the two. Malak and Maul are the former.

Part of the "fall" is internal, part of it is external. The internal half of the fall takes on many facets. Some simply start using the ends to justify their means, that sort of thing, like Jacen did. They use the Force as a tool, and seek to enhance or increase their power.

But the external part is a lot of the Devil. It's temptation to give over to the Dark Side, and when it does, it clouds the "good" part of a person and more and more brings the "evil" side of a person out.

The most believable and "realistic" falls are thus a combination of the two. Luke's "fall" in Dark Empire was entirely external. Anakin's fall was a combination of the two. He sought power to save his wife, but in doing so, lost sight of who he really was. The "Darth Vader" character takes hold of him. They're not split personalities, but they've had their mindsets changed.

This is where the Vergerian theory of "no Dark Side" comes in, that it's really just an internalized process of changing and coming to believe in some psychotic, sociopathic tendencies. Of course, it's nonsense. No one could become so depraved and polluted at heart to end up that way so quickly.

Good intentions are just that, good intentions. They don't purge you of responsibility or repercussions for your actions. Anakin Skywalker had good intentions when he fell. Jacen did too.

And then there's Palpatine, the utter heart of Darkness. He isn't an enraged war-machine like Maul, nor does he see his actions as justifiable because of his actions like Dooku. He is merely the epitome of evil, destroying anyone he pleases, seeking power for the mere sake of power, and not caring who or what he tramples getting it.

 

It's entirely one sided, and people aren't even aware of such things, and naturally wouldn't when typing it under kath deadline hounds. You see folks enter a night side place or world, and "oh, I can't handle the night and fell." But you don't see bad people infected by the light side.

I like a balanced approach. Realism.

 

I imagine its possible for a Sith to be infected by the Light Side since we see redemptions occur astoundingly easily once they actually have a person voluntarily reject the Dark Side.

 

You're talking long term. I'm talking the Squib dance.

Kreia walks on Malachor, oooh, the darkness consumed me.

Callista touches the night side a bit, ooh the darkness is flirting me.

People walk on Vjun, ooh the darkness is consuming me.

It's enough to make me laugh each time I see it. Here and there, okay, each place is different, with varying levels of threat. But you don't see people walking into a locale of bright Force light and consumed into angels.

 

Honestly, I never read Dark Empire so I do not know enough of Luke's "Fall" to make a statement there. Quin....he fell when he killed Tinte. Bottom line. He killed her not to "Complete the mission"...not to "Convince Dooku that he was on his side"...but to have revenge on the person that set up the Deaths of his parents - an Event which caused great PAIN in him twice in his life. Pain Leads to Hate...blah blah. The other time he fell? Not The Senator...No....I truly believe it was Tookarti. Tookarti screwed him over big time - yet Tookarti could have been imprisoned or dealt with in another more humane manner. The Senator? Vos thought he was actually killing a Sith Lord. I would go with "Stupid" instead of "Fallen" at that point. Tookarti? He was killing a little rat.

In my mind, Quin was Redeemed....but not untill late and oddly enough by the two women in his life, Jedi Knight Aayla Secura and "Gutter Trash" Khaleen. Standing in that room, Dooku told him how Khaleen played him at first - she didn't deny it. Tholme had used him too. He looked into Khaleen and saw love and compassion. He knew what side to fight for. Aayla helped take care of the rest reminding Vos that he was fighting the Darkside in himself. He went on and did the right things on Kashyyk and gave up his obsession with finding and killing the second Sith Lord. Kudos to Quin. He found his way back. Maybe it seemed too easy, but he was redeemed.

Malak....I'm sorry, admitting that your former Master whom you thought you had betrayed to certain Death comes back and lays the wood to you....That does not count. He did not Redeem himself, he was just BEATEN. Furthermore, he was too weak to live with this fact....he failed when he fell and failed as a failure. Instead of asking for help from Reven to come back to the light and try to help make up for his atrocities he took the easy way out - Death.

I think 90% of being of the Dark side is inside, and 10% is outward action. If you have no Dark Side Tendencies you are not likely to perform an act of evil. If you have no qualms about killing younglings, blowing up planets, etc. and would do it for personal gain/revenge/hate the dark side mindset is there. As of AoTC, Count Dooku hadn't done anything outwardly Sithly, but it's obvious he had crossed over to the dark by his planning with Sidious - his "racism" and the fact that he outright told Yoda he was using the dark side...well...

Carnage

 

Makes sense. I think along the same lines.

 

I think it's very interesting how a majority of C-Canon sources use the term "fall", whereas the films seem to prefer the use of "turn".

Is there a difference?

Could it be said, for example, that when Kreia tells us that Revan never "fell" she was merely arguing semantics, and demanding that it be recognised that he "turned" instead?

Is a turn faster than a fall?

Is one more responsible for a turn than a fall?

Or are we just talking about two words for the same thing?

Was Malak redeemed as of his death? No, I don't believe so - but "redemption" here has almost come to mean "come back from the dark side" exclusively, in which case... maybe. The "shroud of the dark side" that had been colouring his judgement was lifted, but not for the right reasons - it was lifted because he saw that it hadn't given him the power he wanted. So, an actual redemption? No. A moment of insight that pierced through the deception that is the dark side? It seems so.

I'd like to think that he went on to simply join the Force when he died, losing his identity, rather than being condemned to the mad limbo/chaos thing that dark siders are supposed to go to (is that right? I'm sure I read that somewhere).

 

I equate the dark side with falling to your animalistic instincts over more intellegent and civilized pulses. Thats why Jedi have to control their emotions. They have to rise above their primitive drive and acheive a higher plane of perception. To think not of yourself, or those you love but of the greater good of the galaxy, whatever that means. To FOLLOW the force rather than dominate it. Accept your destiny and be prepared to die for your cause.


EDIT:

As for turn vs fall.

Well I think to turn is to WILLINGLY join the dark side.

Wheras fall is more tragic and means to join the dark side by being forced or tricked into it.

 

Sorry, but after what it took to beat Malak my first time, misallocating all the RPG stats and feats, I don't want his redemption.

Still haven't gotten around to finishing the night side. I look forward to comabting him with full offensive force . . . and an elec-proof belt.

 

You could always turn him into a dancing green Twi'lek with cantina music

(use the dancedancemalak cheat..)

Dealing with KOTOR and the Dark Side, what about Sion? He tried to save the Exile in his own twisted way- he wanted to kill her rather than have her broken by Darth Traya. "You are beautiful to me, Exile..."

 

I think that's a pretty good analogy.

Any physical and psychological addition, really, coupled with egomania.We know that Yoda (and Obi-Wan) were very wrong about Anakin. Neither thought he could come back, but he did by the love of his son, which as Qui-Gon pointed out to Yoda was the answer to the dark.

Malak was unredeemed at his death, though he experienced what alcoholics call moment of clarity (reference thanks to Jules).

Luke definitely fell during his servitude to the clone Emperor, for the same reasons as Ulic (which is why we first get the story of Ulic from Bodo Baas). Falling does not require one to perform their own henious acts (though Luke most likely did), but merely to stnad by while evil is being committed, which Luke did far more of while vainly biding his time. But for the love of his sister, he would have waited in vain until he was in too deep, which was the Emperor's plan.

 

But is it really in the nature of the Light Side to permeate a place and infect those around it? That definitely sounds like something we're more likely to see out of the DS.

Admittedly, you have a point about the absurdity of DS-influenced places turning good people all on their own. I would think they could weaken someone's resolve to the LS, but the influences would be gone once they leave said DS place. It would take some DS character's presence to make good use of a DS place, if you ask me.

 

IIRC, Yun from the Jedi Knight graphic novel was influenced by the light side in a way like this.