PT Jedi Council vs. Darth Sidious

In an alternate reality: what do you think the Jedi Council should've done or handled differently to take care of the Sith Uprising by Sidious?

My thoughts:
I realized a War was going on that was overwhelming the Republic/Jedi, but still feel the Council should've met and plan a more strategic and definite method of handling the Sith Lord (Palpatine) by teaming up with any of the Order 66 survivors.

Example: Go after Sidious with a 30 Jedi "Platoon" so to speak. Just a thought since the other option of desperation by surprise failed.

Any thoughts friends?


Stay safe my amigos...

 

Well if they throw morals out the window, they can hold Padme hostage and force Anakin to look for an opportunity to backstab Sidious while Yoda fights Sidious head on. They're obviously not going to do this though. I can't think of any feasible options after Order 66 has already happened.

 

Depends on when we are in the films.
Just after TPM;
1. Question Nute Gunray very closely. He was working with the sith so find out all they can.
2. If Maul's ship is still on Naboo, search it and find out as much as they can. Also try to find Maul's body and try to get an ID.
3. Anakin is the most important Jedi alive, make sure he gets the best training, don't give him to the total rookie that has never trained anyone before.

After AotC,
1. Look into the clone army mystery, lots to do here.
2. Reach out to senators they feel they can trust, build up an alliance.

During RotS,
1. After Anakin told Mace about Palpatine. Warn the other Jedi, talk to the council and make a plan beyond, "Run in there, sword drawn."
2. After Order 66. To use some D&D advice, "don't split the party." Go after Anakin first, both together and take him out. If Sidious shows up, then good, he is away from the capitol and most of his troops, so take him out.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

the problem is not how the jedi handled it. the problem is that palpatine is a genious at adaptation. he could adapt to almost any situation and change his plans accordingly.
i honestly see no way they could have won, no matter what idea me or anyone else may have, he would still find out and change his plan. he is that damn good. you could say he is the ultimate tactician. people like him dont need the force to win, thats just an added plus.

 

There were multiple opportunities to at least thwart his plans temporarily. Ultimately the only way to stop him is really to contain him, IMO. They did not know that Palpatine was a Sith, but they did know that Palpatine was doing questionable things and didn’t do anything to stop it. Had the heroes always done the right thing, they could have halted Palpatine’s rise.

In TPM, Palpatine wants Padme caught so she can be forced to sign a treaty to create a crisis to expose the weakness of Valorum’s government and get sympathy. The Jedi help Padme escape, but when they take her to Coruscant to plead her case to the Senate, she betrays her strongest supporter on Palpatine’s encouragement. Palpatine turns a loss into a win.

In AOTC, Palpatine/Dooku want Padme dead because she’s a hurdle to the creation of the clone army. Zam fails. Palpatine is able to get her out of the picture though. When Obi-Wan is captured, there is still a segment of the Senate that is anti-war. But Palpatine and Mas start talking as though if Padme were there she’d vote to give Palpatine emergency powers, and then Jar Jar ends up advancing Palpatine’s ploy. He failed to have Padme killed, but he was able to manipulate Jar Jar to misrepresent her and advance his plot.

In ROTS, Anakin tells Mace that Palpatine is a Sith with the intention of seeing him arrested. Mace goes to arrest him. Anakin does not trust Mace that he won’t kill him. Palpatine provokes Mace into changing his mind about arresting him.

Had both Mace and Anakin been on the same page about arresting or killing him (doesn’t matter which) then Palpatine likely could have been thwarted. But by driving a wedge between them with neither Anakin or Mace willing to budge, Palpatine won.

And when Yoda and Obi-Wan decided to destroy the Sith, at that point I don’t think Vader was any immediate threat. Yoda and Obi-Wan should have gone after Palpatine. If he died, it’s all over. Vader isn’t going to be rallying any politicians or clones.

He’d be a powerful individual, but completely lack any power structure to be a threat to the Republic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

They need to check his prints on their Sith database.

 

I can agree that Palpatine is quick on his feet and can adapt his plans.
But that does not absolve the Jedi of how badly they handled just about everything.
In the end, Palpatine did not win because he was clever, he won because everyone else were dimwits.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

i read your previous post, most of it wont work because palpatine put the fear of god on all those he interacted with/payed-off politician and judges, had eyes and ears on both sides at all times and can adapt to any problem he might face (and probably did during the time skips between the movies).

the only reason he lost is because vader picked him up while he wasnt looking. if it wasnt for that mistake, he would probably rule the galaxy to his death.

 

The Jedi didn't have a very good spy / intelligence network. They could have at least hired a few investigative journalists to follow the Chancellor and his senior aides, 24/7, and everyone they had regular contact with. At some point, a lead would have turned up, leading to Dooku, thus exposing their relationship.

 

Exactly . Get Woodward and Bernstein on the case.

 

Or perhaps what happened was the will of the Force . . . or George Lucas. And we should leave it at that. Perhaps the Jedi had to pay the consequences of their mistakes. They were not perfect. And I have never expected them to be since I first saw "The Empire Strikes Back".

 

No doubt Palpatine could have adapted to nearly anything the Jedi did and made the best out of it.
The question then is what is the "best case scenario" for the Jedi?

If Yoda and Obi-Wan had been on Coruscant at the time they may have been able to hold Anakin back.
Maybe Yoda together with Mace could have won the Office duel with no other casualties.
But there is the moral dilemma of what to do with Palpatine if he is defeated? As Mace pointed out, Palpatine is in charge of the Senate and the Courts, and even without his lightsaber he is hardly defenseless. Even if they decide to execute him, Palpatine could escape, call the Jedi traitors anyways and Execute Order 66. I would be shocked if he didn't have a backup plan in case Anakin didn't arrive.

The Jedi taking control of the Senate still leaves the GAR under control of Palpatine, and with the droid armies still active the Republic has no other defense besides the Jedi who are hopelessly outnumbered. Palpatine might declare the CIS his new Empire, and while the Jedi Purge might not me as complete as it is in the canon timeline it would still happen.

 

Bernstein? I thought it was BernSTAIN. Damn Greedo effect.

 

This is in no way official, but I know Dave Filoni had put forth his theory (in a ForceCast episode done back when TCW was on TV) that had Mace killed Palpatine, he would have surrendered himself to the Senate.

The Jedi were talking about taking over the Senate to force Palpatine out and ensure a peaceful transition of government. Had Mace (or Yoda) killed Palpatine, I can see them plausibly turning themselves in to face imprisonment, be executed, or pardoned. At any rate that would be the right thing to do, given that they serve the Senate.

By turning themselves in they can sacrifice themselves to protect the Republic (even if the government doesn’t recognize their sacrifice). Alternatively, they don’t turn themselves in, still try to take control of the Senate, and then the Jedi Order as a whole would look like a tyrannical body.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

While Sidious has had moments of arrogance and stupidity, he held most of the cards during the prequels and after.
Good luck defeating him with 30 Jedi. He'd likely have Vader to help, as well as Royal Guards and troopers. If he completely refused to use the Force at all, I suppose 30 Jedi could cut through Vader and the Emperor's guards/troops and kill him. But I don't think Sidious would keep the charade up that long. He would start using the force if it looked like his protectors were losing.
Remember that droids killed about 200 Jedi in one battle. Almost none of them killed were the cream of the crop, but it's something.
Yoda (if he wouldn't have been on Kashyyyk) and Mace could've beat him and subdued him during Episode III. That would be a better team than Mace and the three others.

 

This is a difficult question because no matter where you make a change, like other users mentioned, Sidious would adapt. He can see the future more clearly than anyone at that stage in the game. He can’t take on more than a few Jedi directly if he’s alone, so if the Jedi Council had decided to bring more, he would’ve made sure he wasn’t alone. And whatever the Jedi tried to do since discovering that the Sith still lived, I’m sure he did all he could to stop them from discovering or doing anything to really stop him early on.

I think part of what makes the prequels a tragic story is that there’s so much going on that is seemingly inevitable. The Senate is almost hopelessly corrupted by the Sith already, as are the various commercial entities with power over the Republic. The Force is unbalanced and the Jedi are unable to use their abilities of perception as they once were. They make the best of the situation, but honestly there may not have been anything they could’ve done, or would have been willing to do as Jedi, to escape the revenge of the Sith. They could’ve been more aggressive or more cowardly, but they are Jedi, and that’s not something they would do. In the end, their fate did rest in the hands of Anakin, because being so powerful, he was Sidious’s ultimate temptation, the one for whom the Sith were made vulnerable so that they could claim him. Anakin could have killed Sidious, but he chose not to. The Jedi served the Force, the Force gave them Anakin, but his choice to abandon his destiny that day is what sealed their fate. For the time being, at least, as we know.

 

As an aside, personally this is one of the prequels’ biggest flaws. I don’t think Lucas made it really clear what could have been done and he sends mixed messages. Palpatine’s plan didn’t go his way in TPM, but he salvaged it by manipulating Padme and convincing her the Chancellor was weak and that the bureaucracy was too slow.

Sooo what can be done? Had Padme stood by Valorum, she could have thwarted Palpatine’s plan, but… Palpatine was correct, so thwarting Palpatine would have come at the cost of letting her people die. Plus we later find out that Mas Amedda was in cohoots with Palpatine. So we have the Trade Federation in league was Sidious objecting to the accusations, and we have Mas Amedda whispering in Valorum’s ear leading him to concede to the idea of appointing a commission.

So what exactly could the Jedi have done? I don’t think they could do anything in TPM, it really came down to Padme.

Usually in these kinds of movies the problem is solved in the climactic battles. Does Luke stop the Empire, or does he fail? Does Thanos win or do the heroes? But here, regardless of what happens on Naboo, Palpatine wins. I don’t think that makes for engaging story telling.

The climax of AOTC was the battle between the clone army and separatists, but by that point the villains have won. The victor is decided before the battle. Turning the battles into eye candy with no stakes. Again, it came down to a vote on whether or not an army would be created escalating potentially into war. Padme was outspoken against the army, but she was sent away by Palpatine due to the attempt on her life. What could the Jedi have done? Nothing, they’re not politicians. Padme and Bail could have done something.

So we see a Republic become an Empire. And the Republic is sometimes treated like the good guys, and sometimes they are treated just as the less crummy of two crummy options. Early on in AOTC Obi-Wan is telling Anakin that politicians’ loyalty is to whoever funds their campaigns and that they will dismiss democracy to pursue their agendas. When Anakin says that Palpatine isn’t corrupt, Obi-Wan replies that he’s observed that Palpatine is skilled at manipulating people’s prejudices to get what he wants.

So here you have a good guy complaining about the political body he serves and treating it as a corrupt body of greedy individuals, not exactly painting the Republic and Senate in a good light.

Then we get to ROTS and see that this army has a trigger built into their minds to kill all Jedi. There are really only two moments in this movie where Palpatine could be stopped. If Mace and Anakin could work together, or if Yoda could kill Palpatine.

Three movies and only the climax of the third actually feels like something more than eye candy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Had these movies been written better, Palpatine would have been victorious DESPITE the heroes doing everything right. And it would actually feel tragic, retroactively, because you'd see all the pieces fit together.

What we actually got was a Jedi Order that does some outright idiotic stuff just so GL's plot can work, which is probably why the first two films fall flat for you. What you essentially watched was two and a half films of our heroes being REACTIVE instead of PROACTIVE for 90% of the time... only to finally start attempting to make decisions and stop the evil Sith Lord's for the climax of ROTS.

 

The Jedi were blinded by more than the war. Their opulent and decadent temple was built over a a dark side shrine, and one they had not exercised, nor seem able to. The clouds of the dark side were therefore at their home base as much as when in presence of Lord Sidious, which is why feeling the dark side as Yoda mentions in Attack of the Clones has become so strong that the Jedi cannot see into the Force. This actually made it so the Jedi would not suspect Palpatine, the presence of the dark side already pulsating around them due to the shrine in their temple.

 

Let's see, maybe something to look into is when Mace says, "The Darkside surrounds the Chancellor". Hmmmmmm, maybe there is a reason for that. You know, like maybe Palps is a Sith lord.......Maybe Palps isn't as innocent in all of this as he's trying to lead on.......Maybe the Jedi are not completely inept dolts who miss EVERY obvious clue!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Historically I don’t think they needed one, the Jedi could use the Force to see the things a good spy / intelligence network would report. But the Jedi didn’t know the Sith we’re hiding things from them in the Force until close to the onset of the Clone Wars.

The Jedi underestimated Darth Sidious. The Jedi thought a posse who could apprehend Dooku or Maul would be a match for Chancellor Palpatine. Maybe Sidious was beaten by Mace or maybe he was feigning weakness. Either way Palpatine won after quickly dispatching three Jedi.

 

Maybe they did and no lead exposing this was found. Doesn’t mean they were unskilled spies, just that the Sith covered all the tracks which could be seen from the spies point of view.

 

What struck me so much about Revenge of the Sith was seeing how far back Palpatine’s plan went and the pieces began coming together. It may have been too late for the Jedi before The Phantom Menace. So while accepting the use of a Clone Army with mysterious origins is a massive red flag that might push the limits of plausibility as written, realistically the Jedi at that point had no choice but to rely on the clones because war had started.

 

I agree with you. For the Sith to hide for over 1,000 years means they were invisible lots of different ways.

I hold that the Force in a way works as another sense the Jedi have that none of us do. We can’t really understand what tapping into the Force is like because the insight that extra sense creates gives the Jedi as much extra information about the world compared to a person with 5 senses as a seeing person has compared to someone who is blind. On the Flip side there are skills a blind person develops to navigate the world that a seeing person would never have or need.

 

I see a lot of people mentioning spies and Yoda. There are difficulties with both.

Spies:
Apparently it's treason to spy on the Chancellor. If they get caught spying, they would be in trouble.

Yoda:
So basically the Jedi need to outscheme Sidious. When they receive news that the separatists are attacking the Wookiees, they need to think, "Hm, Yoda has good relations with them, so the most obvious choice is for Yoda to go there. How many people know this? Is it possible that the separatists know this and are trying to use this to their advantage? Do the separatists need to get Yoda out of Coruscant for something?"
And then they need to think of a counter strategy. Simply having Yoda stay put in Coruscant isn't enough. Sidious isn't going to reveal Grievous's location and his own identity to Anakin (thereby bringing the war to a closure) when Yoda is still there, he's going to wait for an opportunity. It would just be a stalemate until one side figures out another strategy.