Jedi Pilots vs NonJedi Pilots

I was thinking of this after remembering the introduction of Wedge Antilles daughter in LotF. Before you know her real name and she talks about her father he comes across as almost anti-jedi with his comments about how they use the Force as a crutch.
This made me wonder, who is truely a better pilot, people like Soontir Fel, Han Solo and Wedge Antilles who rely only on skill and experience or Jacen Solo who can use the Force?

I lean towards people like Wedge being better...I chose to compare them to Jacen because Jacen was never an outstanding pilot until he went supernova Sith with the fancy Force powers.

 

But what about the pilots who were apparently outstanding without knowingly relying on the Force? Luke, Jaina, Corran? Shouldn't you compare the non-Jedi elite with the Jedi elite?

 

Nobody but Luke could make the DS1 reactor-core shot. Not even a pilot who was flying around during the Clone Wars (Red Leader) had the skill necessary.

Some pilots are amazingly good, but the vast majority aren't that great, and none of them can measure up to a Jedi who likes to fly.

 

Well, at least a Skywalker that likes to fly. But I have to give the real piloting kudos to Wedge, Han or any Fel. To those who are so good without magic.

 

Doesn't prevent them from going down in flames against the galaxy's best pilot.

 

Well, in most situations I would assume that even at his piloting peak, Jacen could have been shot down by Wedge, Fel, or Han with ease, simply because while the Force lends quite a bit, Jacen's actual piloting skills paled in comparison to virtuosos such as those three. Likewise, the reason Anakin and Luke are the best pilots in the galaxy (EVARRRRR!!!!?) is that they were tremendous pilots in addition to their Force talents.

 

This really seems to be a philosophical question -- does having a boost someone else doesn't have undermine your right to claim betterness? Ultimately, I don't think so.

Performance is performance. Luke flies better than Tycho. Period. Would he fly better than Tycho if he didn't have the Force? We don't know. Luke just has an advantage that makes him perform better -- to be better at flying. Tycho likewise has an advantage over, say, Lujayne Forge -- he just has a sharper mind, better instincts, quicker reflexes. Does that mean Tycho's not really better than Lujayne? I wouldn't make the claim. Corran Horn has the Force, he has that edge, but even so he's not better than Tycho. So we can say that being Jedi doesn't automatically make you better -- it just enhances what you have. But when Luke has that edge, and is better, there's no way to quantify where he'd be if he didn't have that edge.

Tycho has quicker reflexes than most people. He can predict an opponent's moves far better than most people.

Luke has quicker reflexes than most people. He can predict an opponent's moves far better than most people.

Ultimately, the only difference is that one was born with them, and the other was born with them and with some midichlorians to blame them on. I don't like trying to separate the two, as if the Force is some kind of cheat, while every other biological or natural advantage isn't. If we can say Jedi don't really count because they have an advantage they're born with, then do people with high IQs not count because they have an advantage they're born with? I just don't think creating the divide really serves anything.

 

The question doesn't seem to be so much as whether or not someone would be better if *some Jedi* didn't have the Force as whether the Force automatically makes a pilot better. For example, Jacen's a Force-assisted pilot, but even with the Force, is he automatically better than someone who is experienced and a very good pilot, even without the Force?

I'm going to cop out and say I have no idea where Jacen's piloting background is.

 

Darklighter pretty much stole the words right out of my mouth. Barring the abilities in Jedi starfighter, the only real advantage the jedi have over normal pilots is faster reflexes and the ability to pick things up quickly...something that normal people already have in different qualities.

Additionally, piloting is a learned skill, so it isn't like they don't train for it.

Besides, i remember at least one comic where some jdei pilots were doing embarrassingly badly...

About the force as a crutch-on one hand I remember a story where Luke was so used to using the force he couldn't catch a cup without it...on the other hand, I remember reading on holonet about a jedi martial artist, who said he didn't use the force while fighting.

 

Of course the Force makes you a better pilot. Heck, look at Anakin at nine with no training at all; he can compete with aliens who have better reflexes than humans.

Now, of course a Jedi with limited time in the Force and employing it in a dogfight, like a Padawan, is probably not going to be that much better than a normal person. But a Jedi who spends alot of time in the cockpit and has been using the Force for a good while is probably going to fly rings around any normal pilot.

 

Which is stupid, because it's stated that all life forms are part of the Force, the Force fuels all life (through midi-chlorians), and all sentient life draws on the Force in order to live and act. Yes, even the Yuuzhan Vong -- that was the whole point of the concept of the "unifying Force" in the first place.

So a Force-sensitive *doesn't have* anything anyone else doesn't have. He just has more of it.

It's all well and good for ordinary folks who have no understanding of the Force to fail to grasp this, and to think of the stuff the Jedi do as "magic" or "sorcery".

However, the whole magic-vs-science attitude that's being peddled as absolute fact in the later EU books flies in the face of the whole point of the philosophy of the Force in the first place. There is no "magic-vs-science", no dividing line between "mystical power" and "ordinary training". The one is merely a heightened version of the other. The Force is all.

All pilots call on the Force when they fly. Hell, they call on the Force in order to breathe, in order to talk, in order to think thoughts and feel emotions. They just don't do it to a high enough degree to be aware of it. To say that Luke's greater tie to the Living Force making him a better pilot than Biggs is "cheating" is to say that Biggs' greater tie to the Living Force making him a better pilot than a corpse is cheating. Being Force-sensitive means you're "more alive" than someone else; it means no more and no less than that. (Remember that the midi-chlorians exist in *all* life and that *all* life is sustained by the energy that comes from them. Ignoring this fact is the main reason people say midi-chlorians "demystify" the Force.)

 

Darklighter pretty much stole the words out of my mouth - it's like kids at school bitter because they have to study more to earn the same grade as smarter kids. How is it cheating if it's something that you can't change that you're born with?

And using the Force as a crutch - if you had a natural advantage, would you negate it just so that it appears you aren't 'cheating'? How ridiculous would that be? You want to fly your best in a dogfight to keep you and others alive. It takes the fun out of flying if you have to metaphorically dumb yourself down a notch to a metaphorical level.

Sorry if that got off topic a bit,

~Jaina

 

You guys kidding me?

As of LOTF Jacen is the second best pilot in the galaxy. He is portrayed as superior to Jaina in piloting and even gives Luke a run for his money a few times. In fact in Fury Luke gets very frustrated because he can't take Jacen down in his stealth-x.

 

The muggles are the better. Hell, can't believe I just said it. Magical manipulation of technology is no substitute for innate talent. Like writing with a pen; you gotta know how to do it.

 

I still remember in Vector Prime when Han and Chewie were making that run in Lando's asteroid fun park. Jaina, Jacen and Anakin agreed that without the Force, Han would have no chance but Luke knew better than to doubt Han.

 

There is no difference between the Force and "innate talent". All talent comes from the Force in the first place anyway.

 

That's like saying all fantasy comes from Tolkien and sci fi from Asimov. Pfft. Pfft!

Your innate talent is to trade like merchants or fly like starpilots. That detified mumbo has nothing to do with talent.

 

The Force is the innate talent that allows people to breathe, move and think. Without it everyone would *die*, much less not be able to fly spaceships.

 

So why wasn't the Exile dead? Or people who come into contact with Ysalimiri?

 

How can you prove that?

Take those like Qel-Droma and Jacen, who have been utterly cut off from the force at some point. They lived just fine. Ysalamari live just fine.

 

The Exile's PTSD cut her off from being able to consciously use or control the Force. Ysalamiri do the same thing; they don't cause the Force to un-exist, they just act as a damping field, countering any conscious use of the Force with their own opposing use of the Force.

The biggest example of "People who seem to have no Force at all" is the Yuuzhan Vong, and the whole point of the Vergere arc was to show Jacen that this is a matter of perception. This is what the whole "living Force"/"unifying Force" thing is about; everyone exists in the Force, the Force controls everything, it's just that some people have the ability to observe and control it (be "sensitive" to it) to a greater degree than others.

Seriously, from an OOU standpoint, the idea that the Force is just another kind of magic force field that some people happen to be able to generate runs directly counter to the films and throws out all the stuff from the films that made the idea interesting or worthwhile in the first place.

Again, as Qui-Gon says, all living things contain midi-chlorians (i.e. mitochondria, which in real life are universal to all eukaryotic life). All living things require midi-chlorians to survive. The only distinction between a Force-sensitive and non-Force-sensitive is having *more* midi-chlorians.

 

The point of Kreia and Vergere's rants was that being "cut off from the Force" isn't as clear-cut as arrogant Jedi sometimes think it is. Jacen *wasn't* cut off from the Force, he was just cut off from the Force *as he saw it*, which was what was needed to allow him to tap into the Force as the Vong saw it and used it.

Ysalamiri obviously aren't cut off from the Force, because they constantly use the Force to negate other beings' use of it. It's like saying that because a shield blocks energy weapons it must use no energy.

 

I don't recall any reference saying the salamanders actually use the force to push it back...

 

I'm sure there are a lot of examples of non-awesome Jedi pilots. Is K'Kruhk a good pilot? What about Barriss Offee? We don't know.

 

Anakin's aptitude for all things mechanical was a talent that was not Force enhanced. He was just very good with mechanical stuff. The Force and his power to manipulate it was kind of thrust apon him. Dang midichlorines might have made him blond too. Doesn't mean being blond is a talent.

I suppose you could call control of the Force a talent for the Force embued. But Wedge is still pound for pound a better pilot than any Jedi stripped of the Force, save Luke.