Jedi,Sith and immortality.

"The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only through the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness."
-Qui-Gon

I could never understand this qoute, how can the Sith never achieve immortality, when we have seen quite clearly that they are able to achieve through various means, yes some say that sith spirits are bound to a single location, but both Freedon Nadd and Palpatine did not appare to bound, also some seem to have achieved physical immortality like the Sith Emperor which does not seem to age and Palpatine which could theoretically swicth bodies indefinatly.
Also it seems that Sith sipirits are far more capable to effect the material world,like Freedon Nadd physically attacking Jedi as a spirit.
So it would seem that the Sith can achieve immortality, so why does Qui-Gon claim that they can't?

 

What does it mean to be immortal? Yes, both Palpatine & Freedon Nadd were capable of vastly extending the time they continued to exist on the material plane, but both were vulnerable to eventual destruction, and were thus, not truly immortal. Only a Jedi can exist forever as a being one with The Force.

I think that one of the biggest mistakes of the EU was Timothy Zahn's decision to not allow Luke Skywalker to commune with Obi-Wan Kenobi any longer. I understand that it was inadvertant, but the idea that a Jedi who has become one with The Force cannot maintain the ability to commune with a living Jedi seems to not jive with the intentions of the films. I hope that someday in the future, someone rights a novel and has Obi-Wan appear again to Luke, and explain to him that he stopped appearing to Luke so that Luke could gain the experience he needed on his own, not because he was somehow incapable. It wouldn't be the first time Kenobi lied to Luke "for his own good".

 

Precisely. Sith aren't ever truly "immortal". They're just cheating death. Casper was never immortal: he was a ghost. Sith spirits can still be destroyed. Jedi who become one with the Force, on the other hand, are spiritually immortal. If they don't reappear or actively interact, it's because they know better than to meddle in world of the living. They get to be immortal because they've embraced death, not because they can't let go of life.

Obi-Wan just understood when it was time for him to let Luke make his own mistakes, just as Qui-Gon had never provided him with a crutch either. We've seen a more direct example of this recently with Mara's ghost choosing not to talk to Ben: it was for Ben to discover the truth, she only gave him what she needed to. Luke has done just fine without Obi-Wan. Pain and mistakes are part of being alive: the Force clearly recognises this, so ghosts don't keep coming back to ensure everything is wonderland, as that defeats the purpose of living. They generally only appear to come back when the alternative would risk the dark side truly becoming ascendant.

You have to separate the idea of "living forever" with "immortality". Sith might be able to keep on living, but that isn't true immortality, because they can still get hit by a bus and end up in Chaos--which by some descriptions implies complete spiritual obliteration, which is the total antithesis of Jedi existing beyond the netherworld. Normal people die and "rejoin the Force" or go to the "netherworld" or whatever. Chaos means Hell: something any "immortal" Sith is forever running away from. That's far from the immortality Jedi enjoy.

 

Qui-Gon Jinn is speaking with the same bias that a Christian here on Earth uses to define immortality, the good go to Heaven & live forever, the evil burn in Hell in eternal torment. It's the same kind of bias that a Satanist will use to convince someone in the opposite of Christian dogma.

Usually in the sci-fi community, removed from the religious community, immortality does mean "to live forever" as in: never dying(Manji or Blade of the Immortal, manga star), or dying & returning back to life in your own body & mind(Mr. Immortal of the Great Lakes Avengers, mutant), or slowed aging process(Wolverine, mutants with healing factor), or transfering your consciousness/soul into another body(Apocalypse, immortal mutant of X-Men fame).

None of those examples of sci-fi immortality define what the Jedi call immortality. They die, come back as ghosts that give advice to the living & then dissappear to who knows where never to be seen or heard from again so that no one can prove or disprove that they still exist in some shape or form. The fallacy of Jedi immortality is that they do not want to hang around forever to help the living or to continue to live themselves, they want to go off to some Jedi "Heaven" & do whatever it is people do there, OOU we don't know what that is & neither do the IU characters. The Sith are the only ones in the GFFA that desire immortality, they want to live forever. They imbue pieces of their spirits into their holocrons & effect living beings in the living world through them, they jump from clone bodies to transcend time, they send their spirits into weak minded individuals to twist that person into doing their bidding.

The path to immortality is to bend the will of the force to your needs, it's something the Sith do so well.

 

Since the Sith's 'control' of the force tends to be ephemeral, it's pretty useless as a way to achieve immortality.

They have plenty of ways that have the potential to offer immortality but have no manner to defeat entropy in practice.

 

I think Obi-Wan's disappearance into the Force isn't permanent, but I can see how it would be necessary to avoid latching onto Luke every time he needed guidance on rebuilding the Jedi Order. For one thing, Luke has to develop on his own, being the "first of the new" generation of Jedi Knights. Secondly, Luke has the potential to correct the mistakes of the past, and while Obi-Wan's insight may be greater now that he is one with the Force, having his spirit around all the time might have influenced Luke to try and copy the format of the Old Order instead of laying his own foundations.

And after all, it's not impossible for Obi-Wan or others to come back. If the spirit of Vodo-Siosk Baas can reemerge after 4,000 years to help the New Jedi Order defeat the spirit of his former pupil Exar Kun, then it might be possible for most recent Jedi like Obi-Wan or Yoda (and on a personal note, I thought that we could have had a dialogue between Luke and Anakin's ghost at some point, just so Luke might have one good conversation with his father without the latter being Vader or close to dying).

 

Im a big Sith fan especially of the Rule of 2 Bane's Sith...

but unfortunately the issue with the Old Sith especially in pursuit of immortality is faux pas to me.

Sidious said Plagueis held the key but does he really? Sidious died in the end, forever trapped in the darkness that consumes him.

This is the Sith undoing. They strive to 'break free from the chains' only to know that at the end of the tunnel they will find no peace. period.


except for the "good" Sith I suppose. Ajunta Pall, Revan, Vectivus & Anakin. They went bad yes but they did it for a "good" reason.

Corrupted no, misled yes.

 

I think it's interesting to think of the point that Qui Gon Jinn is also discounting what the Sith seek as well. The Sith do not want Jedi immortality. They do not want to sit around in Jedi Heaven playing Jedi games. If they did, they wouldn't be Sith then they'd be Jedi. The difference between Jedi immortality and death is really very minor when you think about it.

Tim Lahaye's Rapture was always touted to me as the good avoiding death. My response was "They ascend to Heaven and lose their bodies, but for all intents and purposes are no different from anyone else who dies."

The Sith want immortality of a VERY different kind.

 

I think Charles is on the right track here.

The Sith want physical immortality and the power to influence the physical world. Unfortunately, this isn't truly possible. How powerless, really, was Andeddu when he tied his spirit to his holocron? He couldn't do anything until he got back to his corpse...and then he was a zombie that ultimately couldn't defeat Wyyrlok. Palpatine continually transferred to clone bodies who deteriorated at increasing rates throughout the DE storyline. Freedon Nadd was hanging around a bunch of musty amulets and what not, and his power was only manifest in tempting other people to use the dark side. So he sorta got that vicarious pleasure of having turned someone into his disciple, but he still desired a new body and that's what he recruited Exar Kun for. Kun hung around for a long time, but he was basically powerless too... for 4,000 years. Marka Ragnos was stuck in his tomb until what's her face came along and let him possess her body... and once that was gone, so was he.

Everything that any Sith has done to prolong his/her life ultimately is not the sort of immortality that they are truly seeking... because things get destroyed. There's only one way to attain true immortality... and that lay in spiritual permanence. Which lay in surrendering to the Force and becoming completely subsistent in the Force. I've said my piece on this a ton, debated it back and forth. What I think it comes down to, and this is the thin line of difference between being a Force spirit and just simply being dead and in the netherworld, is that a Jedi's(or other Force-user in the case of the shamans of the Whills) identity becomes not identified with the physical form or the individual preferences and desires of "Obi-Wan Kenobi" but with the very Force itself. That is true surrender to the Force. "I am not, the Force is."

 

I think Trip is right when he says is that Jedi and Sith get the same thing - but the Jedi accept and embrace it, yet the Sith fight against it and hence suffer eternal torment.

 

like I said in my above post. Sith Lords find no peace at the end of the tunnel. Only eternal darkness.

 

My view is that the Jedi afterlife is no different from any other good person.

It's just that Force Ghosts can still visit and affect the material world to a certain extent.

 

*Groan* Did you have to mention that hack? He's the only author I know who can make Armageddon a boring anti-climax.

In any case, the Sith are very much afraid of death if they don't have the power to meet it on their own terms. Palpatine had no wish to enter the madness of the darkside, and Exar Kun's immortality stuck in stone technique didn't work too well either.

 

I don't think there's any indication in the canon of a "heaven" and "hell". Rather, it's a more eastern view of the afterlife. Those who die return to the Force; a select few, those who embrace the release of self, can remain in interaction with the material plane. Bodhisattvas would be an apt comparison to Force ghosts, I think. Sith spirits, meanwhile, just cling on a little longer to a material existence (and it seems without fail, they're anchored to something physical).

 

The trouble is there is still "Chaos" to account for.

Though, arguably, I suppose one could see Chaos as just a metaphorical statement from a Sith's POV of "I don't want to rejoin the Force! I want to live forever!", basically making them equate rejoining the Force as their personal idea of hell.

Personally I still prefer the idea of Chaos as analogous with a complete obliteration of the spirit, such that Sith cease to exist--either in the material world or as part of the Force. Though, having just considered the idea of them equating the netherworld with hell, I actually suddenly rather like that... as it demonstrates the double edged sword of "oneness" in their eyes.

 

Yeah, I like that idea. QuentinGeorge mentioned it above, too. To the Sith, the obliteration of self is the worst thing; to the Jedi, it's part of life.

EDIT: By "that idea" I mean that the Jedi and Sith have the same fate.

 

Metaphysical immortality...the Jedi live forever in peace with the force. The Sith live forever in torment in a place called Chaos. Technically, both sects have still achieved immortality, the living forever part, right? Then is the difference that the Jedi are telling the Sith that their "immortality" is better than yours & vice versa? Too bad there's no scientific proof that can say whether either sect is right, cause the dead never tell this tale...

 

There's been indications of a very Western Afterlife in the Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina book and inside the Marvel comic books. Frankly, I don't think there's been any indication of an Eastern afterlife outside of fan speculation. I think it's a huge disservice to move the Force from a synchronous religion to a straight pastiche of Buddhism.

Frankly, without reincarnation, there's not much similarity to Buddhism anyway. If there's no reincarnation, then everyone goes to the same place anyway except those who go to Chaos which is more similiar to Western thought anyway.

 

I agree. Though, there's obviously not a direct one-to-one correlation with Abrahamic eschatology either. But you're right, without reincarnation then everyone achieves nirvana, essentially and just goes back to the void. Force ghosting is then less impressive than simply dying. Of course, the Boddhisattva comparison for Jedi spirits isn't very precise either... Boddhisattvas reincarnate until their vow is fulfilled... the liberation of all beings.

Of course, it's also kind of funny how everything assumes a Buddhist fetish for the Jedi Order when in many ways the Jedi, the Force etc probably have a better correlation in religious Taoism and Taoist sorcery. Even what we have regarding eschatology and immortality. Which is why I usually kind of see the whole Force ghosting thing to be a syncretic sort of thing. The direct expression of the ultimate "how" you do this in ROTS is standard mystical union stuff. Obviously involves lots of meditation. I also wonder if there isn't some element of internal alchemy such as you might find in pranayama, kundalini yoga and Taoist qi gong and nei dan(internal alchemy) practices that enable the Force-user to transmute the matter of his body into pure Force energy.

If we have that combination of mystical union and internal alchemical transmutation, that might actually lend a very good insight into the difference between a Jedi spirit and a Sith ghost. Especially since we did see Palpatine's body disappear to and a dark energy thing try to enter Anakin Solo. Perhaps the Sith have a line on the transmutation of the body into Forc energy, but they just can't do the mystical union part that actually makes this immortality immortality. Just by virtue of their egoistic philosophy.

 

YODA: Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force.

The OOU reason, in my opinion? Because Lucas thinks they can't.

 

And what religion is that?

The Qur'an says "inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji-oon" "We are God's and to Him we shall return."

There's nothing to return to or transform into in Buddhism, nothing higher. You could maybe see that in the various Hindu religions, specifically the Vedas with the individuated soul(atman) and the Universal Soul/Absolute Reality(Brahman)... but you're still missing the key concept of reincarnation here and how the realization of Union with Brahman is the highest spiritual attainment.

I wouldn't say that's a specifically "Eastern" expression that Yoda's making, it just "sounds" like it in some sort of cursory kind of way. Primarily because it's different from what you usually hear in Western religious circles. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a slightly different version saying we return to God when we die.

 

It says nothing about heaven/hell. Western religion's concept of heaven/hell is not supported by the saga in general. The Eastern influence is not merely "fan speculation"; rather, the speculation is in writing Western religion's afterlife
( complete with preservation of identity ) into the story.

Not necessarily.

On the contrary, that is not missed.

 

you're Muslim, mate?

 

Dude, without reincarnation every person in the Star Wars universe attains the realization of union between atman and Brahman.

Besides, we've got plenty of EU material... considered canon... that supports elements of the afterlife of the Western world. Stang, the heaven/hell dichtomy isn't even strictly speaking explicitly Western. There are heavens and hells in both Buddhism and Hinduism AND religious Taoism, for that matter. In both Hinduism and Buddhism reincarnation isn't simply limited to this plane of existence and Yama, King of the Underworld, judges souls upon death and they are reincarnated according to his judgement. That can be in one of many hells, one of many paradisal heavens, as an animal on this plane or a human etc. That's part of the cycle. So even if we included reincarnation in Star Wars, that wouldn't negate Chaos as a hellish place or experience in the netherworld.

The saga is, actually, pretty silent on matters of the afterlife excepting the case of "transform into the Force" which could mean just about anything... and Force ghosting.

Stang, I'm not even arguing that there's a specifically Abrahamic cosmology involved in the Star Wars afterlife/afterdeath. Just that it's not strictly speaking "Eastern" in character and remains a composite, mostly of Eastern and Western esoteric doctrines... and it's within esoterism that the exoteric distinctions really start to lose meaning and both begin to merge anyways.

 

Which is a learned skill and not the Western "heaven", as evidenced by the fact that dead Jedi don't appear
( regardless of their degree of personal saintliness ) if they haven't learned it. We are also told that without this the dead "lose all identity".