Jedi Teachings Flawed?

I dont know If this is in the right forum but it seems to me that the Jedi are always prospering and then come to the brink of destruction by the dark side, only to be saved by some individual or two. For instance with the stuff in KOTOR the jedi were numerous but got turned by revan, and with the films it seems to me there is a flaw in the Jedi's teachings. I mean for the Jedi to create these rules that seem to contradict human nature how do they expect there to be people who always obey. I dont know if im making much sense here but I hope you guys understand the jist of my statement.

 

I wouldn't say the Jedi were prospering in the PT. They though they were, but in actuality they had put themselves in a bad position by becoming complacent and allowin the Order as a whole to become stagnant. The Sith were able to build power slowly over time because the Jedi became overconfident that no threat could harm them. It's like putting a frog in a pan of water and slowly heating it up - he gets burned before he realizes what's going on.

But yes, the teachings were flawed. They weren't teaching the right things to always keep them on their toes. Even after Qui-Gon was attacked by a Sith they still believed that there was no possible way the Sith could pose a threat to them.

 

On this planet,
most religions tell one to forego personal attachments,
most religions tell one to put an end to their personal resentments,
most religions speak of a better place (be it in the next world; 'heaven'; or gaining 'enlightenment' and finding 'paradise' in this world, or whatever),
and most religions think that their aderents are the 'righteous' ones.

GL based the Jedi Order on a plethora of our world's religions.

Does that mean that the teachings of thousands of years of human history, upon which GL based the very Jedi, are flawed?

Perhaps you thinks so.

I think not.

The Sith are the bad guys for a reason.

 

I agree with Winston_Sith

Religion is about going against what we would normally do & trying to change & improve you?re self.

That said the Jedi have to be at their weakest in order for the Sith to take over. If the Jedi were at their zenith Palpy wouldn?t of had a chance.
They serve the government instead of being separated from the state ( if church & state aren?t separated the church ends up being bossed around by politicians).

They are arrogant & have not changed the code to keep up with the changing times.
Come on fellas! Even the Catholic Church ( a notoriously stubborn institution) had Vatican 2 which made a lot of changes i.e. mass no longer said in Latin & is done in a different manner, alter girls etcetera.

The Jedi also fell prey to their own fear & fulfilled their own prophecy.
? The boy is dangerous!?
So they treat him as a danger & not as a innocent child. Naturally he resents this treatment & it makes him easy prey for Palpy.
Putting Ani on the council but not making him a master also shows that the Jedi are less than perfect, they should of
1 not put him on council
2 put him on council & made him a master
What they did was break the scared code to suit themselves ? no wonder Ani was so peeved.

Obi?s lines about absolutes make me think that the Jedi are a bit confused about what they actually believe.

The Sith are still evil & the Jedi are still good despite being weak & somewhat corrupt.

 

Does that mean that the teachings of thousands of years of human history, upon which GL based the very Jedi, are flawed?

Perhaps you thinks so.

I think not.

The Sith are the bad guys for a reason.

Why is it so hard to believe that some of the Jedi teachings might be flawed?

 

it may be because people are unable to distinugish between attaining the wisdom and being told the wisdom. in other words: because the jedi say something, it's also immediately understood, which is the essence of lecturing.

so, their methods are flawed to a tee, while the subjects have been proven to be enduring.

 

I agree with Winston.
I don't think the Jedi teachings are flawed, but there may have been
mistakes made with Anakin himself which is why ppl are so quick to
start judging the whole Jedi way of life.
IMO that's a mistake, but opinions vary.
Anakin hid things from the Jedi and especially Obi-Wan.
You can't behave like this and expect to get the best or fairer
treatment b/c you have veiled your true self from those who should know
you best.

 

I don't think Anakin has anything to hide because the Jedi have known since the first day he came into their temple that he misses his mom and Obi-wan knew since he started training him that Anakin is in love with Padme but instead of doing something to help Anakin cope with the separation from both women, they just leave him to suffer from his emotions thinking that he could overcome them but that only made Anakin unstable to the point where he explodes at the entire Jedi Order.

 

they might simply not be able to relate to him missing his mom, though, none of them is missing their parents.

 

Again, EU material, namely the RoTS Novel goes a long way in showing that Jedi teaching can be flawed. Mr. Stover gave us this short exchange by Obi-Wan Kenobi and Padme, one of the most impressive passages in Star Wars Lit.

"But the will of the Force?isn?t that what Jedi follow?" - Padme
"Well, yes. But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth?if any truth is ever simple?is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mys­tery." - Obi-Wan

This extends very well into our world and religions. Not taking any bias here, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Siek, Shinto, whatever religion certainly has us following the will of some higher being - either telling us through a prophet what this higher being did and what he/she/it expects from us, or through this higher being telling a group of people directly what he/she/it expects from us. God (If you believe in a god or not) is a concept that is beyond any of us. We would be very arrogant indeed to believe that ourselves as an individual knows exactely what their God asks of them, what path their God would like them to follow, and why their God would want them to follow this path. All you can do is try to follow your faith as it has been told to you (Passed down by generations of people whom also could not comprehend the true will of God) and hope it brings you to the right place. The people who crashed their planes into the World Trade Center thought they were following the will of their god. Were they misguided? In response, the United States attacked Afghanistan, also killing people. Were they misguided? Who knows? In the big scheme of things, the Will of God can be the only judge of who was wrong. The Simple Truth-if any truth is simple-is that we do not truly know what the will of God may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to it's mystery. The Will of any God may be perfect as the Will of the Force probably is. No Prophet, Preacher, Devoutee of a religion, or Agnostic can possibly comprehend what the will of a higher power has in store. We all try to follow the flagposts lined up for us. Many are easy to see, some all but invisible. Miss one unintentionally, and you may stray so far from the will of God or the Will of the Force that the consequences are too large and you find yourself completely lost.

I do not wish to argue Christianity vs. Hindu vs. Islam etc. etc. I do not wish to argue the World Trade Center and who was right or wrong. I did not mean to offend anyone with this post, as talking religion or politics can be sticky, but I feel that it is a good lesson on how these inherentily Good Jedi Knights can have flawed teachings.

Carnage

 

Lucas had already proven that some of the Jedi teachings were flawed. For example, in both ESB and ROTJ, both Obi-Wan and Yoda teach Luke that once someone gives in to evil, they will forever be dominated by their inner darkness. This is something that has obviously been taught by the Jedi Order for centuries. And yet, Anakin ended up proving them wrong in ROTJ. Even in real life, there have been individuals who have turned away or risen above their inner darkness for a better life.

 

There is no question the jedi teachings are flawed, these same stagnant teachings created the situation that sidious exploited, obviously a flaw.

less in universe their teachings are also contradictory.

the passive, peaceful, never fights warrior is a contradiction all by himself.

That particular flaw is owed to the genesis of the Jedi order, lucas based it initially on samuari warriors and later tried to merge that image with a buddist monk with some success but the frayed edges show at times.

 

I don't understand the "no attachment" rule. If by attachment they mean an obssessive, needy relationship then yes, that's wrong - but that's wrong for everyone, not just Jedi. In the films it would seem attachment would encompass any relationship, even healthy, beneficial, loving relationships. The simple banning of romantic relationships would seem a testament to that - sure, romances can become unhealthy, we see that with Anakin and Padme. But not all romantic relationships are like that. What about parent-child relationships? They too, are banned? Why? Do they fear that any sort of relationship with another person would result in a temptation for the Dark Side? This can easily become true, as we see, but it doesn't make sense. Normal people have relationships without becoming corrupted. A simple temptation or wrong act or thought would be magnified within a Jedi I guess, but still, something wrong does not necessarily have to occur in the first place in any relationship. And the master-padawan relationship, and any friendships with other Jedi - isn't that in itself breaking the no attachment rule?

I just don't fully understand the definition of the attachment rule. I think that rule was definitely flawed. There was nothing wrong in itself with Anakin loving and missing his mother. He is a normal, healthy boy to love and worry about his mother. The same with Padme, originally. There is nothing wrong in itself about being attracted to someone else and worrying for their safety. Anakin's later actions based on his feelings for his mother and wife are certainly wrong, but just feeling love and concern for someone shouldn't be. It seems like the Jedi just banning this altogether instead of understanding and better explaining their philosophy contributed to Anakin's downfall. To love and be attached and in relationships is part of human nature. I think any time a part of human nature is suppressed entirely, it leads to bigger problems. I think the Jedi deliberately smothering most relationships hurt them in the end. Look at Luke for example - he loved his Aunt and Uncle, his friends, his sister and father - and it only lead to good, in the end.

 

i often lose hope on this, but seeing others think along those lines, too, allows it to rekindle.

i guess the reasoning behind the no attachments rule and why it's vastly effective for the other jedi, is that they replace the attachment to parents with an attachment to the order at a very early age. so, the kids have a place they belong and people they belong to (the masters) but nothing outside of that.

so, the conclusion is that the rule is hypocritical as it just doesn't allow anything *outside* of the order but by themselves, the jedi are by definition attached (and it shows as well).

 

I can understand the Jedi not being allowed to marry & have kids but ?no attachment? is a bit off to me. How can you stop people being attached? Obviously with Anakin they didn?t.

 

what you can do is allow relationships to mature and to develop into mutual respect etc etc.

but it's downright psychotic to ask someone to not long for their family etc. especially since he was a single boy to a single mom. how much closer can you get?

the jedi were out of touch with the world or else made their world to fit their own purposes. goes to show how important it is that luke managed to be in the world again and to see it for what it is. the jedi were deadly afraid of taking risks and allowing people who they are.

 

Yet Anakin's mum was ok with it. In fact, she told Anakin to do exactly what the Jedi preach - let go. Accept change.

Was she wrong too?

 

no, why would she be wrong.

we all have to accept it. it just doesn't go anywhere to force it on people and claim you have their benefit in mind.

what the jedi do is choose a cenvenient way of getting out of the conundrum that we all love our parents. so they pose as the parents. simple a that. and how would anyone complain about something they would never get to miss in the first place?

and is it wrong to keep kids from seeing their parents? sure, i think so. it's a bond, it's not some throwaway inconvenient thing you can get rid off in the long run. hopefully it'll always exist so we can be properly in the world and be part of a family.

 

Then they should quit their lives as a Jedi and go find their parents.

But that would be a very selfish thing considering the Jedi have a life of selfless service to the greater food.

And my point is that you keep slagging off the Jedi for 'taking kids' and not letting them have attachments - yet the mother of one of these children suggested it as well!

Do you see the pattern?!

Why you make the jedi out to be the bad guys I do not know. If I lived in a galaxy where a group of Sith were trying to take over and spread evil, i'd be more than happy to have the Jedi Order do what they do.

Its their duty.

 

You're just being facetious. It wouldn't have mattered if the Jedi went out and found their parents once they were grown. It's the nuturing bond between a caring parent and a growing child that the Jedi are missing. If the Jedi went out and found their parents it would not be the same because their formative years would be over, besides a caring parent that had the means to take care of a child in a loving environment would not allow the Jedi to take their child.

There is no greater good in a society that allows their children to be taken by a military entity.

Let us not forget that Anakin was born into bondage. Remember if he even tried to escape his little body would explode. Shmi's life is one of desperation. Of course she is going to surrender her only child to someone that is willing to take him away from his life of bondage. At least he would have been allowed to leave the Jedi Order if he wanted unlike his situation as that of a slave for the rest of his life.

No I don't. You're comparing apples to oranges.

No one here is saying they're the bad guys. What we are saying is that they're lost. However, don't take my word for it, take the word of some of the people of the Republic:

FINDING POTENTIAL JEDI
In the Republic era, it was considered to be dangerous for potential Jedi to begin training during adolescence as their established character traits could lead them to the dark side of the Force. Recruiters narrowed their search to newborns and infants with high midi-chlorian counts. Many families considered it an honor to have a child adopted, but some refused to give up their children, and regarded the Jedi as baby snatchers. ---STAR WARS: THE ULTIMATE VISUAL GUIDE, page 18

The Sith did nothing to the galaxy but nurture the indifference and evil that was already rooted deep withing the Republic. Was there not an entire planet consumed with corruption in The Phantom Menace. The Sith had nothing to do with that. The Trade Federation wanted to invade Naboo all the Sith did was point them in the right direction, but they seemed very happy when the planets belonged to them after the invasion. It was almost as if they had done it before, maybe that's why "our volunteers will be no match for a battle hardened Federation Army." The people invited the Sith, the people through free elections chose the Sith as their leader. Did they not?
What kind of society is this? A society that allows their leader to stay in an executive office long after his term has expired? A society that allows a corporate entity a seat on their Senate? A society that grows people to fight their battles for them? A society that gives their infants away to a military entity that claims to stand for peace and justice but turns its back on an entire planet that is ruled by gangsters?

Perhaps you should try opening your eyes instead of listening to the so called good guys. Then you will understand why we see them not as the bad guys but as lost, however, the Jedi Order will find its way back to the light. Luke Skywalker is the light. Luke Skywalker is the redemption of the old Jedi Order. The old Jedi Order could not make the change on their own, they were too far gone. The

 

i don't see a pattern. the only pattern i can detect when i make the effort is that you seem unable to grasp the idea behind my post.

the jedi did indeed allow an attachment - ONE only, that to the order.

so your case is non-existant.

letting go of our fears and our anxieties will always be part of our learning. it's a matter of the method. and the jedi didn't even have a method. they weren't even attempting it. they just enforced dependance on the order.

or maybe your want to reread ironclad's post again.

just because shmi would rather see her son leave that backwater planet and have a greater life doesn't mean that a 10yo would not miss his mom. which i guess is meaningless since being a jedi somehow miraculously makes you exempt from all these confusing human emotions.

 

Allowing no attachments worked for SOOOOOO many Jedi and they were willing to only train children young enough to not have formed attachments. It also kept the number of Jedi low because of the strict age regulations. How many potential Jedi were discovered at too old of an age? Enter Anakin Skywalker. Most likely the Chosen One and he.........is 10 years old. He is attached to his mother. Problem is, nobody else can understand him.......at least not too many. Neeja Halcyon may not have been the only one secretly wed. The Jedi, knowing that the Sith returned, knowing that they most likely had the Chosen one in their camp, and knowing that the Dark Side was clouding everything should have considered changing....allowing attachments....letting Anakin write letters to his mother once in awhile, maybe even a visit. Encourage Anakin to talk about his attachments. Instead he was forced from day one to hide his feelings. Sidious preyed upon this huge gap between Anakin and the Jedi.

The Jedi Knights were supposed to be trusted by The Jedi Council and their peers to do the right thing at all times. Not all fell to the Dark Side because of attachment (Dooku feel due to arrogance and desire to make people follow HIS vision, Reven/Malak out of thirst for war and power, etc....) Almost every mission that a Jedi Knight went on allowed him/her to experience temptations.....taking control of a planet, attracting legions of servants, using their powers to amass vast wealth, having fun cheating and manipulating people, spice addicts having a blast, taking a public freighter to a planet full of smugglers and scum with their own personalized sleek new starships, seeing the simple pleasure someone took in a pet (Even a rancor!). These are just a few random things that could sway a Jedi to the Dark Side. I believe that jealously and greed are instincts, not learned behavior. I think that being jealous of people that had families could be as harmful as allowing Jedi to have families.

The other part I don't like is this part of the Code basically tells Jedi that they are not mentally strong enough to have attachments. This forbidden apple was one that the Jedi were not considered strong enough to pick. Still, Obi-Wan was admittedly attached to Anakin. He did his duty. Anakin's attachment took a different path. Love isn't the face of the dark side, but deception is. Love didn't cause Anakin to drift away from the jedi, having to lie about it did. Love didn't keep Anakin from telling him about the relationship, Fear of what the Jedi Council would do did it. Deceit, not love, on the part of Anakin and the Council led to Anakin's anger with the council. Qui-Gon announced in the Novel that "Love is the answer to the Darkness." Yoda and Obi-Wan believed, and it came true.

Carnage

 

I see the points made here about religion and it all comes back to one line, "good is a point of view." I'm not necessarily talking about "good" here, because judging whether the Jedi or the Sith were "good" is another topic, I guess, but what I'm trying to say here is that religion certainly is a point of view. Growing up with your parents being Christian (I'm just using an example) and going to church and celebrating Christmas is something that will most likely stay with you for a lifetime, but to an outsider, sure they can "understand" someone else's religion and some even accept certian beliefs when they are older but something as strong as a having no attachments (the Jedi's "religion") is something that you most definitely (judging from the films) need to grow up with.

I guess the thing that gets to me the most is not the rule of no attchment (which I have no problem with) but the fact that the Jedi were made to look like idiots when they didn't acknowledge Anakin's difference, his "special circumstance." Perhaps they thought he would just "get over" his mother, and I guess they were proved completely wrong. Sure, you can say they had no idea how it felt like to have a mother, therefore they didn't know how much love and devotion came with it, but are they complete strangers to this particular relationship? Have they not witnessed - ever - a scene with a mother and a child together? Do they not know that the child itself comes from the mother? I doubt that very much, and that's how my little problem occurs. I guess it's really all about Anakin, the problem, not so much about the Code, but how they dealt with the Chosen One.

 

I think the Jedi are brought up in a caring and loving way. Far more reliable than the average parent these days. The children will be more than happy.

And what babies ever make their own choices? Its down to the parent to decide whats best for them. If they say they should become a Jedi, then so be it. If the kids grows up with a problem about this then they can leave and do what they need to. But its the only way. Most of these kids turn out into great selfless people who remain loyal to the Order and do what is right.

Really? Then how come there are **** loads of Jedi? Are you suggesting all those parents were bad? I dont. I think they just saw that there is no greater life than that of a Jedi. There are no greater people. And they wanted that for their child. And the environment They grow up in is caring and loving.

A 'military entity'? Not really. Keepers of peace. And Jedi dont fight until they are of age and ready.

And what of her advice to let go? Of accepting change?

At the end of the day, Shmi agreed with the Jedi and Anakin being in bondage is beside the point. She said herself he was born to be a Jedi.

No. Im giving the only example we have of a child being taken on to become a jedi - which was the wishes of the parent.

So just because some families didnt want to give up their children or were too selfish themselves to let go, that makes the Jedi lost? Uh...no.

The Jedi have a duty to protect the republic. To do this they have to take on kids so that the dark side doesnt spread amongst the order. Its their duty. And despite being a hard life, its a good rewarding one. And any person with a good heart would want to serve the greater good. Those that reject it and being selfish.

As instructed by Sidious...

Yes they did. There was corruption for sure. But the Sith increased it and manipulated it. They were behind ever

 

They werent 'attached' to the order. Once the order was destroyed, Yoda and Kenobi remained. They didnt react badly to the loss of the Order. They just got on with their jobs. They loved what the Order stood for, like they loved the Republic. But they werent attached to it. They werent 'unable to let go'.

And being a Jedi doesnt make you devoid of emotions. It just teaches you discipline. Control and the ability to let go. You need to be detached from things so you dont fear losing them. But you still love and care. Lucas said this time and time again. Your problem is that you misinterpret what is meant by 'attachments.

And Shmi showed what being a good parent is - wanting the best for your children. Seeing that being a Jedi is a great life then I would say that all parents who let their children become Jedi are doing what is right for them and are showing a love, compassion and selflessness above all else.