PT Kamino Saberdart - Intentional Clue or Fortuitous Breadcrumb

This came up in another thread and I never thought of it before.

Was shooting Zam Wessel with the Kamino Saberdart an intentional part of Darth Sidious' plan for the Jedi to discover the Clone Army?

I thought Jango and Zam really intended to kill Padme and get out alive. However Obi-Wan does go to Kamino right on cue because of the dart. But if it is on purpose - that means part of the plan is for Jango to kill Zam. I just don't get that feeling.

Darth Sidious seems to roll pretty well with any situation to get the most out of it with minimal manipulation. In other words he knows when to take action and more importantly knows when to stop and let actions take care of themselves. I wonder if he had a plan requiring more direct action on his part to reveal the clone army that he abandoned when the dart could be traced.

Afteral, the Jedi were unknowingly keeping Sidious up to date on their investigation and he know they had discovered the planet.

What do you guys this? Happy accident or very elaborate part of the plan.

 

The entire plan is the Jedi discovering the clone army, so yes, it was an intentional clue.

 

Yep. Part of the plan.

 

The plan is for Zam to assassinate Padme and help clear the pathway in the Senate to create an army. Zam really did try to kill Padme. But, Jango was going to kill her regardless if she was successful or not so the kyber dart was going to be found one way or the other.

 

Note that while Zam did really try to kill Padme, there was never any real danger, as her living was also a part of Palpatine's plan to corrupt Anakin. And I've never heard Jango was going to kill Zam either way (not that it matters), where is this from?

 

I don't think Palpatine cares if Padme survives or not. Palpatine would be happy to see her perish because he knows that would further unhinge Anakin, who is in an already feeble state over his mother.

He just wants her out of the way so he can get an army to counter the separatists and their droid armies.

As for Zam being killed, Jango warns her before she sends the Kohouns into Padme's suite that she better not fail him again.

Zam is the fall guy.

 

Here's the thing, if Jango wanted Amidala dead, he would have done the job himself. Zam was kept in the dark, and ultimately got betrayed at the last minute.

Just like in the Phantom Menace, it would have made little difference in Sidious' grand scheme if Padme actually died; Zam believed she actually was trying to kill her. If Zam actually succeeded, it seems the Sith would have just found another way to bring the Jedi to Kamino.

 

Padme is nothing but a memory to Anakin at this time. Palpatine doesn't only know she would survive, but is absolutely counting on it. Anakin is the key to victory for either side and Palpatine knows it. This is why he himself suggests Anakin to protect Padme. He knows they will fall in love, and Palpatine knows this is how he can break Anakin. Also, had the first attempt been successful the trail to Kamino wouldn't exist.

As for the dart, Jango wasn't always going to kill Zam. I doubt he is sloppy enough to leave a trace, it was unexpected. If he meant to leave it why would he be surprised to see Obi-Wan on Kamino and try to kill him? And again before landing on Geonosis? If he was in on it he would have just led Obi-Wan to Geonosis. There was no guarantee he would have gotten an opportunity to use the dart on Coruscant anyway. That situation could have played out any number of ways. The only answer is Palpatine could forsee or sense what would happen.

 

I thought the reason to kill Padme was so she couldn't prevent the Senate voting to create an army but more importantly to get the Trade Federation to join the Separatists. Nute Gunray wanted revenge for what happened on Naboo before he'd sign on. He wanted Padme's head I think he says.

I really thought they actually wanted to kill her and when that didn't happen Palpatine turned it to his advantage. However - the first thing Palpatine does is recommend Obi-Wan and Anakin protect Padme. The botched assassination directly leads to the Jedi's involvement.

It also makes sense why Jango Fett didn't carry out the attacks himself. I never thought of Zam failing being part of the plan. If that is the case, the Jedi were doomed from very start of the Clone Wars. The trap is sprung and their fate is sealed in the second scene of Attack of the Clones. Actually the idea that the Jedi would catch Zam isn't much of a stretch. She seems in over her head. And Jango sticking around to kill her with a dart is very believable. Also why he didn't fire Obi-Wan and Anakin instead.

This concept that everything in Attack of Clones is part of Darth Sidious' plan is new to me. Jango is one cold dude if he knew Zam would die from the start. Is that possible?

 

The voting for a Republic army is nearly meaningless. It serves little purpose other than to get the people thinking along the lines of war. It also makes Padme a target for assassination. Palpatine has already created both armies. You are right about the Jedi, they were doomed. It's called Attack of the Clones because the clones attack on Geonosis is the emperor's first real use of power against the interests of the Republic, even though it appears they are there to save the day. It's a playful title many don't understand. Palpatine has created both armies and is playing them against one another. Even the Jedi, with their every victory, are sealing their own doom. Palpatine plays them all.

Jango killed Zam because she failed her mission and was about to give away his name. He was minimizing his losses. He didn't think anyone would find Kamino because he was probably told that was impossible. Luckily Obi-Wan has a friend who can help him, the odds of which occurring are slim to none. Jango was unlucky.

 

No. The Sith knew the Jedi had no records of Kamino, so any investigation would lead to a dead end. Unless people are assuming that the Sith knew Obi-Wan had a friend with knowledge about Kamino and that he would go to him, to which I say that's a far-fetched concept.

 

I think you are underestimating the investigative powers of the Jedi. Obi Wan seems fairly certain he will get to the bottom of this quickly.

 

And he would, had nobody deleted anything from the archives.

 

He did regardless of the archives. Top Jedi are not the local PD.

 

The Clones were integral to Sidious' plan and the Jedi aren't going to trust Palpatine if he one day rolls up and tells them ''Here you go, Yoda old buddy, an army of genetically modified conscripts with no identities or rights. Right, let's go warring.'' There had to be a crisis of some kind that would have lead to the big reveal and Kamino and from there the war. My own personal theory is that Padme was actually supposed to die in the beginning of AOTC and her death would have been the crisis point, with Palpatine 'arranging' Kamino's discovery if Obi-Wan hadn't managed to work it out himself. But as with many things... Palpatine's cunning was not in working out exactly how things would go, it was in having a plan that changed depending on how things go.

 

That's seem like an absurdly overcomplicated plan.... and now I have to believe that Jango wasn't actually trying to kill obi-wan in the asteroid field?

Meh... can't really buy it

 

Agreed, I've followed debates on this and there is no logical way either accidental discovery of the Clone army or being led there works without plotholes.

 

The plan the way I see it is:

- Dooku asks Jango Fett to put out a hit on Padme, knowing the Jedi will likely track down the assassin.
- Once they do, Kamino is found since he knows Jango lives there.
- If it is not found Sidious can just implement another similar scheme until it is.

From there it can go lots of ways. If it doesn't play out like in the movie, the Seps can carry out an attack on some planet forcing the Republic to use the Clone Army. The focal point is for the Jedi to find the army. The Seps are ready in either case to play their role.

Whether Jango survives, is killed or captured, or whether he manages to kill Obi Wan, are details Sidious can easily work around. We know he wouldn't mind Obi Wan dying at all.

 

As with events of TPM Sidious got the desired results but not exactly the way he planned them but he constantly adapted.

He knew of Anakin's fascination with Padme but couldn't know they would fall in love and get married. That was all bonus which he used.

The existence of the Clones was going to be revealed one way or another to the Republic at some point. It would be easy enough to manufacture that in any number of ways but Obi-Wan ended up saving him the trouble.

 

That sounds much more reasonable to me

 

Then just go with potholes then. After some of those, everything makes sense.

 

I've seen people argue that Palpatine had the following plan;

Order Dooku to kill Padme, via Jango and Zam is the fall person.
He knew that the first attempt would fail so then he would order Anakin and Obi-Wan to guard her. The second attempt he knew would also fail and Jango was ordered to kill Zam with the Kamino dart in sight of the Jedi.
He knew that while all info of Kamino had been purged, Obi-Wan knew Dex and Palpatine knew that Dex could id the dart and he knew that Obi-Wan would go to him.
Going further the plan was for Obi-Wan to go to Kamino and meet Jango, try to capture him but Jango would get away but Obi-Wan would track him to Geonosis. On Geonosis Obi-Wan was supposed to overhear Dooku's plan and contact the republic and inform them about Dooku's plan. The senate would panic, give Palpatine extra powers and the war would start.

To me, this is very improbable and the plan is filled with excessive micromanaging and things that Palpatine could not possibly know would happen unless he had read the script.

So I don't buy it for one second.

Also this plan could backfire badly on Palpatine. Say that Jango gets captured and talks. Then the Jedi would know that Dooku was the one who ordered him to be the clone template. And Palpatine does NOT want that.

As was said above, Palpatine thinks on his feet and adapts his plan to serve the current situation.

The original plan was for Padme to die in the first attempt. This would make the army bill pass and get the TF onboard with Dooku. Once the army bill had passed, the army can be "found" with ease. The Kamino people would eventually contact the senate about the army and Palpatine can just say "An odd thing happened, it seems that a Jedi ordered an army ten years ago and now it is ready." Then Dooku makes a big threat or attacks one republic world and makes a demand "Bow to us or die!!" The war starts and the Jedi have no choice but to fight.

At least this makes better sense to me. Also this way, the Jedi would not know that Jango was the clone army template, which should make the army easier to accept for them. Also they wouldn't know the date issue, that Sifo-Dyas died before the order was placed. Which another question mark that the jedi wouldn't know.
All of this works better for Palpatine. It doesn't serve his end goal to have the Jedi know a lot of the fishy things around the clone army. It makes better sense that the army seems legit.

You still have the question as to why Jango used the dart instead of a blaster, which wouldn't be traceable.
The simplest solution is that Jango's hand held blasters didn't have that much accuracy at long range so he used the dart instead. He did know that all info on Kamino had been purged so he figured that it was safe.
Palpatine improvised and ordered Padme off planet to get her out of the way of the vote.
Once Obi-Wan's message reached the senate, he improvised again and set up the emergence vote.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

If Padme died in the original attack Anakin remains a Jedi and Palpatine loses. Palpatine might think on his feet but we also see he is a master at long term strategy. Typho was tipped off to danger because Palpatine knew Padme's M.O. He knew she would use a decoy if there were danger, and survive. Another thing no one wants to acknowledge is Palpatine's gift of foresight. He can see the future, knows how certain events will play out if initiated in a certain way. This is how he knew Luke would come before him in RotJ. If the Jedi received the clone army they would obviously still find out about Sifo-dyas etc. A big reason for the way things happened the way they did, was to get the emergency vote to get more power. If Padme was killed they would have made a Republic Army and Palpatine would still be a mere chancellor.

Everything in AotC went according to Palpatine's plans. He got exactly what he wanted. It's his finest hour.

 

Jango wasn't in on the plan. You can see that in the film.