Lit KOTOR and TOR: Canon or Not? (Spoilers)

Before I get started, yes, I am aware that KOTOR and TOR have been officially classified as Legends material. However, while perusing the new canon works, I've noticed several things that may hint to that series of games, comics, and books, or at least some of the events within, being canon.

#1: Clan Viszla and the Darksaber
In TCW, Pre Viszla mentions to Obi-Wan that the Darksaber was recovered by his forebears in Clan Viszla during an attack on the Jedi Temple during the days of the Old Republic. While the new canon has yet to describe in much detail the time of the Old Republic, we can assume at least some events might still remain canon based on the way the new canon had been straight up pulling from the old. In TOR, we know that the only time the Mandalorians were on Coruscant was during the sacking of the Jedi Temple. Indeed, it was Shae Vizla (different spelling, but same clan symbol) who led the Mandalorian attack, penetrating the temple with Darth Malgus. As Mandalorians are big on trophy-taking, we can assume Shae grabbed some kind of memento from the battle- probably a lightsaber from a fallen enemy. Who's to say said lightsaber wasn't the Darksaber used by Viszla during TCW?

#2: Lando and the Sith Empire
In the most recent issue of Lando, a helmet is seen sitting on a crate with glowing red eyes. On the wall behind it, a faded symbol of the Sith Empire appears. This symbol is the same as the one in TOR.

#3: Revan and The Mandalorians
Also in TCW, there are 2 references to events in KOTOR. Pre Viszla frequently brings up his desire to abolish the New Mandalorian govt. and return to Mandalore's "warrior past" which we know from context existed at some point. One callback to KOTOR is a mural seen in Sundari while Sidious and Maul are dueling, depicting ancient Mandalorian warriors battling Jedi. Again, this could be just any occasion in the Republic's past, but such an organized conflict seems like a callback to the Mandalorian Wars. Additionally, Darths Revan and Bane were slated to appear during the Mortis Saga, even going so far as receiving character models, but were eventually written out. Now, this was back when there was just one canon, so that may be a bit of a reach, but it's worth noting that the writers were fans of the EU enough to consider adding two major characters. Finally, Malachor is also mentioned by Col. Gascon in Season 5:
"But there's no way in Malachor that I'm going to lead this pitiful squad on an assault of that landing zone."
Again, this may be a one-off, but the writers felt it worth mentioning, and it's still part of official canon, though without context.

Now, I may be grasping at straws and none of this may turn out to mean anything, but the fact remains that TOR is the only Legends material still being published, probably more for financial resons and popularity rather than story content. These were just my thoughts, and I'd be interested in seeing what other people think.

 

Some things from KOTOR and TOR are Canon here are a few
Maanan
Korriban/Moraband
Taris
Pazaak
Sith Logo

But most things still are not Canon nor will it ever fully be Canon. some characters will be brought back like Revan

But in it of itself no it is not Canon nor will it ever be.

 

I think in this case, we can't say it never will be, nor can we say it will be. It's just that TOR is in a weird position by being the only continuing story from legends. I feel that it's complicated by the fact that the story for the new expansion was shown to the story group and received their approval, which implies some oversight. To me this means there's a chance, however small itay be, thay TOR could be brought back into canon.

 

Thanks, I forgot about some of those.

It won't bother me if it's not canon, as I can still enjoy both Legends and the new stuff, but it's a a unique position that bringing it back wouldn't throw a wrench in Disney's canon.

 

Yet Storygroup's 'oversight' also had FFG's Force and Destiny rulebook declare that TOR/KOTOR was a literal 'legend' (meaning that even within the context of a game that isn't canon to the NEU they dictated that TOR/KOTOR isn't canon).

Of course, other material has already stated that it was canon within the FFG material (the adventure within the same book involves a derelict spaceship from the KOTOR era), so it's puzzling why Storygroup went to the effort to begin with.

 

I agree completely. Whether or not it's canonized is irrelavent to me. I'm able to enjoy it regardles; it has some pretty good stories.

That's why I say we can't say if it will be brought into canon or not. TOR is in a unique position, and has been handled in seemingly contradictory ways. I'm not sure if the story group even really knows what to do with TOR outside of allowing it to continue. I wouldn't be surprised if they left it non canon, but made everything starting with the new expansion canon. They seem to care whether or not it fits with canon which is not what I'd expect from a legends game. So they could be considering the idea, or the may just want it to feel like it could be canon to make it more appealing.

 

I think it'll be brought into canon to the precise extent that other material feels like referencing it but never in its totality--or in other words, the same as the rest of the EU.

 

The Clone Wars show clearly used a lot of stuff from KOTOR and TOR:

KOTOR:
-Selkath
-Malachor reference
-Plans to have Revan appear

TOR:
-As mentioned, the pretty obvious reference to the Mandalorian sacking of the Jedi Temple
-Jedi training ship based on the TOR cruiser design
-TOR Jedi logo use
-The concept art of the tomb on Moraband was explicitly based off the design of the Sith Academy from TOR

When you combine it with stuff like the Galaxies reference (of all things) in that one Naboo commemoration episode, or Delta Squad's appearance, or even the fact that the show's use of Nightsisters originated from the show's own spinoff game which struck a chord with Lucas, a pretty big chunk of the show's EU usage came from games.

 

That's interesting. I never made the connection between TCW's use of the EU and it being mostly from video games. Could it be that they thought those would be the most recognizable and popular?

 

Along with the Crucible being inspired by the Defender-class Corvette, Huyang seems to have taken some inspiration from TOR-era protocol droids:

Also this:

 

I think they will pick and choose what things work from The Old Republic Era just like they have been doing for almost all of the EU.

I hope sometime down the lines (Be it TV Show, Movies, or Books) they flesh out the era. I love me some Sith Empire (Less backstabbing this time though)

 

Might also be worth adding that Darth Revan's spirit very nearly appeared in the Mortis Trilogy (though we were probably better off without it, really).

 

As one of the highlights of the old EU, it's going to make it back in in broad strokes eventually. It's just one of those odd stories that's just out of focus to the current canon. In many ways, like what Boba Fett used to be before he got popular.

 

Most things from the TOR timeline works with Canon as of now other then Lightsabers and Darksabers

Everthing works for now

I won't be surprised if we get a Revan Reference soon in some book.

We know the most about the Sith and the Mandalorians for that time in Canon

 

Sure but TCW actually fits into Legends. Just barely. In New Canon they're avoiding TCW and the era surrounding it completely. They definitely, most likely, plan on rewriting some things in that time period. Same as with the pre-Episode 1 timeline, going up to the Rakatans and such. I doubt they'd avoid possibility of putting their own stuff in there. They're doing it for everything else, like OT-era EU, so why not the past as well?

 

TCW has been referenced too much in comics/novels and rebels for it to be rewritten

 

That is completely false. TCW is canon. And New Canon is actually making direct references to TCW and even pulling characters like Asoka and Rex.

Disney is not re-writing OT or any of the eras that are covered by canon material. They ma be adding to it like Rogue One is filling in story right before ANH. And Rebels is showing the formation of the Rebel Alliance between ROTS and ANH. But none of that is re-writing canon. It's filling in gaps in the story.

 

They're not. It's as simple as that. Mentioning bits and pieces does not recanonize the entire work. It's like that until LFL decides otherwise. Revan is not canon, the Mandalorian Wars are not canon, every piece of fluff is vague enough to never mention names or events. "Almost appearing" or it's "conceivable that this could have happened" is not an argument as long as LFL has those guidelines.

 

I wish.

 

Never say never, EU/Legends material is in a kind of canonical purgatory at the moment. If the powers that be want to use it and bring it into the new canon, they will. Story pending of course.

I believe Old Republic material (well that which does not connect with the old post-RotJ EU) should be relatively easy to weave into the new canon. Even some post-RotJ material could still work, such as Kyle Katarn (pre-Mysteries of the Sith).

At the end of the day, Disney is more concerned with the new and less on all the intricate details/connections which shape the tapestry that is the SW universe (which for me truly gives the franchise it's richness and depth). However if there's money to be made and there is a public hunger, I can see old favourites returning. I point to Revan has one of the biggest possibilities. If the rumours of a remastered KotOR being developed are true, this will make it even more likely.

 

Well, to add something positive to this debate, here's a bombshell from SW #9 (out today):

Spoiler

"Once we were brothers in the Force. But from the Hundred-Year Darkness were born the Sith."

 

Spoiler

I really hope they don't keep the timeline placement of it from the old EU. Having the Jedi and Sith come into being at the same time fits the thematics much better, IMO.

 

Spoiler

True, refraining from setting any kind of time scale, means a lot of potential lore could be added without having to fix everything into place.

Spoiler: Lando #4 spoilers

I bought this at the same time and it has a definite Sith corruption/possession aspect. I'm not sure if it's a spirit doing it, but one of the cat fighters gets yellow eyes and starts using a Sith lightsaber. A double-bladed one. At the end of the issue, both cats are corrupted and wielding sabers.

 

This. It's been referenced in every Adult novel and in a lot of Comics

It would pretty much screw over the New Canon in terms of continuity.

 

The Story Group already confirmed at Celebration that SWTOR is non-canon.

As far as anything else, just because they reference stuff that came from or was used in the games does not mean the games are canon. They've stated they're treating Legends as a sort of "writers resource".

Nope. The timelines don't match up. THe SWTOR Cinematic takes place around 4000 BBY, while the "Fall of the Old Republic" in canon takes place around 1000 BBY.

There's no doubt that they're using species, concepts, story ideas, locations, etc in the new canon, but KoTOR and SWTOR do not line up with the way the new canon is going.