KOTOR2 creeps me the heck out

Just running through the KOTOR games again and man, I forgotten how genuinely creepy this game is. The stellar music certainly helps, but it's more than that. It's the dead ships, corrupted by the force itself. It's the Sith Lords, hungering for the death of the Jedi, striking from the shadowing, brutal yet cunning. It's Kreia, your greatest friend and worst enemy. It's the Jedi, arrogant and offering no protection from the world they take no responsibility for making. It's the galaxy itself, falling apart and in decay, and even the force itself, wounded and in pain.

And above all, there's a palpable sense that things can, and will, get worse instead of better. That the true enemy is yet to be fought, and it waits in the Outer Rim still...

Seriously, I know there's an upcoming Star Wars horror novel and all. But they should really explore Sion or Nihilus if they really wanted to ratchet up the terror factor.

 

KOTOR2 remains one of my favourite chapters in the EU.

You make a very good point about the sombre end note that even with Kreia defeated the true Sith still wait out there in the dark.

It's why as much as I'm not a big MMORPG junkie, I really, really hope TOR does the True Sith justice. KOTOR2 was so foreboding. The danger with a MMORPG is going to be that the good guys and the bad guys will basically be balanced evenly, so it may not accomplish that "This is the REAL threat" feeling.

In a way, it's why I'd like a novel or something about the START of the Great War. The MMORPG will be the fall, so won't be the big haunting moment, as the True Sith will have been back for a century come the game. But their first return, when they swept in and took great swathes of the Outer Rim seemingly overnight, is the period that I imagine would fully evoke the slumbering evil that KOTOR2 set up.

 

One of my favorite things about KOTOR 2 is the wonderful atmosphere it creates. You're dead on; the entire thing is so relentlessly sinister (and where it's not, it's extremely melancholy). You hit a lot of the big elements of plot and setting that contribute to it, so I'll refrain from repeating.

Keeping the villains in the shadows is a classic horror technique, and it creates a wonderful almost-Lovecraftian horror of Nameless Things out to get you. But the true villains aren't even them; it's your mentor and the hidden Jedi Master, two archetypes that have been part of Star Wars' stable of heroes since the OT, that are the main antagonists of the piece. It's a bit of paranoid thriller in there; you're at the center of a much bigger plot than you realize, and you can't trust anyone in it. There's so much dialogue in the game it's easy to miss some of the best stuff here. Even before we learn about the True Sith, there's loads of foreboding comments from people who both know merely suspect that something is going on; HK, G0-T0, Atton, Kreia, all give you hints of something very dark lurking on the edge of collective knowledge. It just adds to the sense that you have no idea what's going on, and horror is all about the unknown.

Part of why I think the atmosphere is so effectively creepy is that everything in the game is designed to keep you off-balance. You start off in the middle of a murdered colony, then a walking corpse arrives on a ghost ship, and it just gets worse from there. You're never welcome on any world, and you can't just run back to some happy sanctuary like the Academy on Dantooine. Every planet is in some state of ruin, and the familiar worlds from KOTOR are broken shells; even your ship gets breached multiple times. The music, as you mention, can get very eerie, and the locations?a lot of cold, sterile, and industrial places?aren't aimed at peace of mind. It's not so much scary as it is unnerving. The entire galaxy feels wrong.

 

[obligitory] KOTOR 2 could have been so much more if they had had time to finish it [/obligitory]

 

I just completely my 3rd time through KOTOR2 this morning. Genuinely creepy, and that's the way the Sith should be. Just being around them or a place that they've left tainted with their dark presence should give you the heebie jeebies. Unfortunately, that's not done enough IMO. Sith seem to be treated alot just as psycho berzerkers or maniacal manipulators. They should also be creepy dark wizards that do creepy things and leave you with a creeped out feeling in your gut.

Nihilus is little more than robes and a mask. He may not even actually have a body, and he basically makes people his zombies. Darth Sion pretty much is a zombie. And Kreia is a wicked old crone.

 

My thoughts exactly Hydronium. And Dwuad, after I finished my first darkside walkthrough, I never did it again. It just felt so 'wrong' to be a Sith. Almost indescribable, they simply twist and corrupt everything around them by their own presence. And not only that, they truly are their own worst enemies. Who would want to live like Nihilus or Sion? Were their lives any better for being touched by the force? No, it was a living death and agony upon them.

Another thing that is really quite unique in KOTOR2 is the discussion of the will and of the need for non-force sensitive people in the world. What is a Jedi without the force? Having used it as a crutch for centuries, the essential things that kept the Order tied to the ordinary people they were protecting were lost. Especially in the conversations with HK, you discover the keys to breaking the Jedi, defeating the Sith, and the keys in the Mandalorian and Jedi Civil War, was all in the will, not in the force. It's in the reasons why Revan allowed the Exile to return to the council, to shame them for their inaction. Moreover, the path to defeat the un-killable Sion is not with Sabers, but with words.

It wasn't just darkside, even if you were as Jedi as you could be, it was an important distinction made between being a simple Jedi or Sith zealot, and really pausing to see how both good, and evil actions affect the galaxy at large. That maybe being bound to not 'feel' what ordinary people feel, is a mistake. Jolee Bindo's council on love and Bastila's relationship with Revan reflect what Luke Skywalker later does with Darth Vader. It was a rejection of the "Jedi" idea that feelings were the path to the darkside, but in actuality the actions that often followed them were. The Exile trained, possibly, four Jedi students simultaneously simply because she had such strong empathy, and an experience of life without the force. Luke rejected the path Obi Wan and Yoda set, assassinating Vader. Luke and Anakin chose love and redemption, and that is what saved the galaxy. They likewise came to the force late in life, and thus had to rely more on their own natural skills, piloting, droids, etc and it make them more powerful in the force. Luke Skywalker was not crippled when Yalsimiri switched off his connection to the force, he simply feel back on what he knew. The common KOTOR Jedi? They would have been utterly panicked.

The rebirth of the Jedi in this era were really quite inspiring, a shame the prequel Jedi fell so far back into their old ways.

 

Agreed with everything here. KOTOR1 was great, and had a really cinematic feel to it. KOTOR2 was also great, but in a completely different way. This is where we started getting into the thick of things, and the way the post-JCW galaxy was shown was magnificent. The Sith are striking from the shadows, the Jedi are nearly extinct, the Republic is on the brink of falling apart after another brutal war. The main quest in the whole game is to find the last remaining Jedi Masters in the Order, and right at the end, right when you finally get them all together and think you finally have a chance of rebuilding the Jedi Order, Kreia kills them right in front of your eyes. Just like that. It is then that you realize that your own mentor, the person you've been seeking guidance from this whole journey and even created a Force-bond with, is the true enemy.

There are many other things in the game that are creepy. You thought Korriban was creepy in the first game? Now try walking on a truly deserted planet, through the ruins of the old Sith Academy and into caves and caverns where who-knows-what lurks. And then there's Malachor V, probably the most eerie place in the whole game, that just resonates with darkness and despair. Atris, a former Council member and staunch believer in the rules of the Order, skirts the edges of the Dark Side (as well as madness) and surrounds herself with non-Force sensitive handmaidens.

And don't get me started on Nihilus and Sion...

 

It's games like these that make me want a Matrix-like experience with them. You know what I mean? I'd actually like to feel, tangibly, the creepiness of the whole thing. It's a very eerie game. Especially early on, when you're on Peragus and when you're first getting started on Citadel Station... you feel like you have to hurry up and do just what you need to do to get the Ebon Hawk back... because those Sith Assassins are coming for you! And, to top it off, you don't know if they're already looking over your shoulder! There's no time to lounge around the cantina, or scavenge for items and credits, you could be ambushed at any second!

Oddly enough, those are the parts of the game where you're in the least danger.

It seemed like KOTOR2 got slagged alot for a while, but I actually think I like it better than KOTOR1. I felt there's more atmospheric detail in some places, particularly the Ebon Hawk interior... and I prefer the Jedi robe designs over those in the first game. Plus, there's freaking battle meditation, Force enlightenment and Force sight. Force sight is pretty cool, and I didn't get that power until this last time I played through. Guess I never talked to Visas Marr about how Miraluka see in the Force enough the last two times I played it through.

 

So. Very. True.

 

There's no "think" about it for me. KOTOR 1 is fun and entertaining, but it's a fairly popcorn experience. KOTOR 2 is one of my top three EU works; it's so much richer on almost every level.

 

Personally I like KOTOR 1 better, just enjoy the story more.

But KOTOR 2 does have the better vilians. And I completely agree that Sith should leave you with a creepy chill or a sense of fear. Vader and the Emperor do, so does Nihilus and Sion. Kriea didn't quite although I did like and enjoy her character. Just wasn't at all intimidated by the blind one armed old lady.

 

Complete agreement with every word of that. You really feel like you've woken up in a SWU where things have just gone horribly wrong (and they have), and your character is haunted by his/her past (they are), and the whole cast is brilliant. I take it you've seen the reconstructed outline of KoToR II that someone did from the files on the PC version? The alternate dialogue is interesting as are the things that obviously were meant to be there but never made it in.

The game's atmosphere is a thing of beauty though.

 

well we will see the True Sith in the 3rd KOTOR game right...

 

I agree oh so much. KOTOR2 is incredibly creepy and unbalancing. The first game was occasionally dark and intriguing, but the end killed it. KOTOR2 delivered... Kreia is a fascinating character and her philosophy lessons are one of the things that totally hooked me on Star Wars.

It's an unsettling game, because you NEVER know what is true and what isn't. 90% of NPCs unabashedly lie to you, and the fact that the Exile is in essence a mass murderer and war criminal doesn't make it better - walking through Malachor, seeing her handiwork, is incredibly chilling. Everybody around you has secrets from you, but you HAVE to trust them.

 

I completely agree. I wonder how much darker it could've been if they had time to finish this game. It's a shame Lucas forced the game on to the selves before it was finished.

The KotOR II story and characters (especially Nihlius and Sion) are probably the most underrated and under appreciated things about the EU.

I've always considered Darth Nihlius and Darth Sion the best Sith combination.

 

KOTOR 2 is hands down, one of the best story driven Star Wars games ever made. It may have been flawed but the ideas presented by it and the events it explained and showed were among the most epic and sweeping since The Empire Strikes Back. And it's cast was much more original then the first KOTOR game, which felt at times to be composed of nothing but homages.

 

Another thing that's unique is how much melee combat is played up. Hand to hand fighting is a credible technique in this game. Killing Sith Lords and soldiers with Echani martial arts is just badass. And Darth Sion's curb stomping of Kreia is the most violent scene in the game. Sure, we've seen violence in Star Wars before, but a Sith Lord man-handling another with raw physical strength? Now that's more than a little bit terrifying.

 

^Plus, it's a zombie beating the snot out of his crone master.

I mean, the lack of non-humans on the Ebon Hawk in this one is a bit of a bummer. Sure, we've got a Zabrak... but he's not of much use. There's the Miraluka, but she's just a step shy from a baseline human. However, the fact that you can be a total bad-A with empty hand fighting is pretty awesome. Only for certain characters, to a certain level, did I ever use blasters. You could completely own everyone who fired a blaster at you with a staff or a sword in very short order. All bets are off once your lightsaber is constructed and you start adding power ups to it. The empty hand fighting is made better by there being specific items for empty hand combat boosts... gloves, head gear.

And that's just the game mechanics!

The story is the best, and without creepy Sith alchemically engineered beasts like the tarentateks too! Well, there's the hsiss... but they aren't much of a challenge. Those taretateks were something to behold.

 

KOTOR 2 and me have had an interesting history. KOTOR 1 is hands down the best Star Wars game I've ever played. The characters, the story, the setting, and the twist.

In KOTOR 1 you were the last hope of the Republic, surrounded by friends and fighting the good fight against the evil, English accent, Imperial-stormtrooperesqe Sith. It was a story of a heroes rise and fall and rise again. All through the game all you hear is the greatness of Revan and the tragedy of his fall. Then to find out that you are him, that you can either fix your mistakes or fall back into Darth Revan.The Star Forge and the huge climactic battle with the climactic duel between Revan and Malak. The whole game gave you a huge feel good epic adventure. The characters were great. Bastila, Carth, Canderous, Jolee, Juhani, T3, Mission, Zaalbar, and of course HK-47. You knew you could trust them, you knew they trusted you (well maybe not Carth). They were with you until the end.

In KOTOR 2 you are an Exiled Jedi War Criminal who can't even use the force, surrounded by pyschos, spies, liers, and one decent astromech droid. You open up seeing your Millienum Falcon ripped to pieces, filled with dead bodies, drifting through space, while you are uncouncious and helpless. Then you finally wake up after hearing some creepy voice tell you awaken only to find yourself surrounded by dead miners and creepy music. You find that someone deliberately posined you to render you unconcious, then you find a dead woman who turns out not to be dead. Then you fight your way through armies of droids who have killed their masters. And you do all of this in your underwear.

Really the shear creepyness of the opening on Peragus II is just amazing. You don't know whats going on, your almost completely alone, everthing in the base is trying to kill you. Then you find out that the literal imbodiement of Death is coming for you. And all you have with you is an crazy, possibly pyschotic, old woman, a sarcastic smuggler, and an astromech droid.

I honestly think that using modern day video game graphics the scene of Darth Sion coming down the hallway with the lights flickering above him would be one of the most terrifying moments in Star Wars videogames. To just turn around and see a walking corpse with a lightsaber who's only goal in life is to kill you, walking towards you is simply unerving to say the least. Then to find out Kreia is going to take him on, your to scared to even care that she has no chance and you simply wish her luck and run.

Then when you finally get off the planet and you think you can finally get to safety and get some answers you find out the most horrifying truth. All the Jedi are dead. The Republic is near collapse. The entirety of the Sith have now devoted themselves to killing you. No place is safe, all you can do is hope you can run fast.

The planets you vist are all dead or dying. Ironcially the safest most secure place you find isn't your ship or even the Jedi Enclave. It's the Mandalorian Base on Dxun. After practically and possibly wiping out the Mandalorian species the safest place for you is in the middle of their base. The Jedi are no good because any Jedi gathering leads the Lovecraftian horror that is Nihilus to you. The Republic is no good with HK-50 droids working all through the fleet. And your ship is filled with people who are very likely to kill you or sell you out to the sith.

You've got an ex Jedi killer who is clearly unstable, a stalker esque spy for the Republic, an old woman who was once the most feared Sith Lord in the galaxy who you know have as a mentor, a bounty hunter who could probably kill you if she felt like it, and a former soldier who designed the mass shadow generator who feels he is responsible for every death that happened there, and then you have the former apprentice of Darth Nihilus who pledges herself to serve you. I don't know how the Exile slept with all those nuts on the ship. The only people you know you can trust are Mandalore becuase you(the player) kno

 

Reading that, after experiencing the Sion model in TFU, I have to say that you are right. That dude is creepy. The actual KOTOR2 graphics were limited, but Sion in TFU graphics was downright freaky, even just standing there doing nothing. In full cinematics...

 

I personally find the Star Forge battle to be the highlight of KOTOR, along with the escape from the Leviathan. Some people think the fight is an annoying slog, but with the right powers, implants, Star Forge robes and a Sith mask, your companions are almost unnecessary. I always took HK-47 and Canderous and just had them play shooting gallery while I used Revan to tear things up in melee. I agree, KOTOR was more of a traditional (but well done) epic story, and KOTOR2 is the twisted sequel were you see all the horrible fallout from your actions in the first game.

Some have said that Revan has an even better story in KOTOR2 than the first game, and I almost agree. Finding out the bits and pieces of the mystery of Revan's fall (OR WAS IT?) helped build the sense of mystery and the loss of control. Characters in KOTOR 2 have their own agenda that often times supersedes your actions. And that is very unsettling.

 

GenAntilles, I think I love you. (In a totally brotherly way)

 

Definitely agree with the good general. Out of all the Star Wars games I've played, this is the one one where you never feel safe, never feel secure. Malak coming after Dantoonie? No prob! Got lots of masters here. Holy **** HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED IS COMING! The shadow of the darkside! Devourer of worlds! Abandon all hope ye Jedi!

 

That certainly summed up my feelings the first time I went to Korriban. Encountering Sion without ever expecting it was a great moment, especially when you realised he couldn't be killed and just had to leg it out of there.

The one (or two, though they're a related idea) thing that I just wish the game had included was to have made one of the worlds you visit a planet ravaged by Nihilus. To visit a dead world, where everyone, and I mean everyone, was dead would have been truly haunting. Had one of the planets been Katarr, I feel that would have been one of the creepiest moments in the entire game.

I liked that we never really encountered him under the very end, it kept him mysterious and creepy. Visiting a planet that was dead with no explanation (other than some very ambiguous prattle from Kreia) would have been downright creepy. Just finding a ghost town with the corpses of thousands of Jedi Masters and Miraluka? Freaky. It'd have been good as a kind of murder mystery "What the KARK has happened here?!" since Kreia would hardly have said much, only spoken of "the darkness" out there, and shouted at you that you'd better quit questioning her and start listening to her.

I also wouldn't have minded narrowly escaping from a world as he devoured it. Though of the two ideas I prefer the visiting a dead world more than the narrow escape.

 

If people think Nihilus was underdeveloped, they're wrong. He's not supposed to have menacing dialog or extreme combat skills. It's what he is that's horrible, what he does. He's the perfect antithesis of the Jedi, serene, lacking all emotion, a perfect connection to the force he consumes. No anger, no rage, no fear, just... hunger... pure hunger. *shivers*