Kyp Durron - NJO and onwards - how was his character handled?

Amongst one of NJO's failings for me was its handling of Kyp, it was too simplistic and crude. That Kyp would favour strong action against the Vong? Correct, he certainly would. That he would do so to the extent of saying nothing was off-limit in that fight? That I don't buy. That notion I see as coming more from the writers intent to have a rogue Jedi and Kyp got chucked into the box, but it is just for this.

Remember that Kyp was possessed by Kun (no, there isn't a debate about this, text is in COTF) - in the course of that experience he saw to the fullest measure exactly where a no limits approach leads - stars destroyed, systems annihilated, billions dead. Following that, in the story Simple Tricks (collected in Tales of the New Republic) we have a Kyp who is uncertain and guilt-ridden, even suicidal. He slowly regains a sense of confidence. He and Dorsk 81 later uncover Daala's plans in Darksaber and Kyp then tends to drift into EU limbo.

Now maybe it could be said that due to 15 years of success as a Jedi Kyp has come to see himself as being much better than his earlier self, so much so that he thinks he can avoid the same mistakes he made when younger. While this has some plausibility to it, I still think the sheer immersion in the dark side that he underwent would have seared itself into his mind to such a degree that he'll never walk that road again.

And the Kyp-Luke resolution in DW? I can appreciate that WJW had a 'fix it' job on his hands, that DW was a clearing up of the mess accrued from various books but the resolution felt wrong to me. It was not as simple as Kyp was right and Luke was wrong.

My view is that Kyp was aware of the dangers in the action he was proposing, but that he'd steer clear of them too. The weakness is that the Vong were invading in such numbers that even if every Jedi followed Kyp's lead it still wouldn't be enough. Kyp's plan was short-term, with nothing in the long-term, which is where Luke's thinking was looking to. Of course such a reconciliation of Luke and Kyp's plans would diminish the 'dramatic conflict' element - which seems to be the guide for how Kyp acts.

So has Kyp been handled badly? Do you see the NJO handling and onwards to be in character for him? How did LOTF use or not use the character? Is Kyp a character with more potential than has been tapped?

 

I think Kyp was handled well. He became arrogant after years of being a Jedi. The thing is, he only saw the Vong as evil and who could blame him? All he saw them do was kill and kill. He felt pretty much the same way about Daala in JAT (now theres a reaction I'd like to see in FOTJ). He thought that he could use whatever means necessary to get rid of the Vong because he knew he wouldn't fall to the dark side again. However, what he didn't realise was the example he was setting to other Jedi-like Daeshara'cor who fell dangerously close to the dark side.

 

There's a very amusing scene in Destiny's Way at the first Council meeting where Kyp loses his temper, fumes at how first he thought Luke was wrong and then went around telling people that Luke was right and finally says that he just wants to punch him in the nose. A lot of Kyp's character is revealed in that scene, even if he DID come across most of the time as an arrogant jerk.

And I wondered about him and Jaina...

 

Hm, I remember reading that short story, with how he was such a humble character. And how in Darksaber, he was one of the first official new Jedi Knights, and how he had a pretty good friendship with Dorsk 81, up until they defended the Yavin academy and Dorsk died of course.

Then the NJO hits, and Kyp's sorta a... hm, I think my impression of him was a very aggressive hotheaded Jedi. I didn't like how he deceived Jaina at one point about that in development worldship, but at the same time, while I don't remember every single thing he did, I don't think he ever really got anywhere near the darkside. Though considering how insane the Vong War was, just fighting them aggressively still didn't really do enough.

I was just rereading Destiny's Way recently, and it was funny how, after a dozen or so books, now Luke's ok with attacking Vong, instead of just constantly fighting a defensive war. Although that eventually led to the problems in the DNT, but still, I like how Kyp was always... honest. Many of the new Jedi are very proper, and extremely respectful of Luke Skywalker (perhaps too much so at times), but Kyp's usually pretty blunt and honest at least.

And I remember Dark Journey somewhat clearly, as it was one of my more favorite books of the NJO, simply because Jaina's eagerness actually tempered Kyp's own hotheadedness, since now Kyp had to restrain someone else, specifically someone who was essentially on a short darkside jaunt, with the potential of getting much worse. During that book, Jaina didn't really care, as she was still reeling from Anakin's death and Jacen's supposed death, but Kyp actually had some experience with that route, so he was able to contain her a bit. Although I'm not sure if its creepy or not that there was almost... something between them at one point, considering their age difference. Although considering how Kyp has mostly always respected Han deeply, throughout all the years, I'm hoping its just that he wants to look out for Han's daughter.

I expect Kyp's almost radical shift in personality probably came about for the same reason they made Jacen a whiny pacifist, for "drama, conflict!" since a united New Jedi Order or a competent, efficient New Republic would've led to a hopefully swift conclusion to the Yuuzhan Vong War... but then that wouldn't have allowed for over a dozen books. So if every Jedi just obediently listened to Luke, then that would've been boring. Would've meant far less trouble for the protagonists... but meh, novels these days are all about piling more and more problems on the good guys.

During DNT he didn't look that good, but then, just about none of the Jedi characters looked good as they fell to bickering endlessly.

During LotF, I actually liked Kyp's character. While he's still a bit of a divisive, outspoken voice, when a lot of the Jedi Council is almost coddling Luke, or too afraid to speak out about something as it might hurt Luke's feelings or his state of mind (especially after Mara's death), Kyp's still honest, brutally so. And while I didn't like him suggesting making Jacen a Master earlier on in LotF, at least he was completely loyal to Luke, and presented a united front when Omas tried throwing that suggestion in Luke's face.

I'm not sure if I see Kyp as a potential future Grandmaster, or even just being temporarily put in charge, though he probably has the power and the skills, but I don't mind someone as independent minded as Kyp has become, not to mention that I don't think he's strayed anywhere near the darkside recently. He's probably hasn't gotten that wisdom thing down yet, but he's mostly respectable. And considering how many Bantam characters are on the Council, he's one of the few that still stands out in my mind, whereas Corran barely registers anymore, unfortunately. I sometimes wish Kyp would have more focus, like if we could see that girlfriend of his.

 

From what I read of Kyp prior to NJO, he struck me as being a Jedi rather like Luke: quick to act for justice, but always conscious of his fall to the dark side and the importance of self-restraint. But the NJO quickly dropped him into the Rogue Jedi category, so that he was practically all for nuking the Vong out of existence. I accepted it for a few novels into the series, but by the time of Rebirth where he deceives Jaina and half the New Republic military for a preemptive strike against an incomplete worldship, the shoot-first-no-questions-asked Kyp was starting to wear thin, even turning to dangerous territory. He seemed to grow tamer, right up to DN and LOTF, where he's back to antagonizing the "GA-first" Jedi and pushing for Jacen to be a Master for some unexplained reason.

If they really needed a major dissident in the NJO, I figure they could have fleshed out Wurth Skidder or Ganner Rhysode into that role (the latter would've been interesting considering his transformation and noble sacrifice in Traitor). Kyp should have been more in line with Jedi like Corran and Kyle: students of Luke who had disagreed or turned away from him in the past, but survived their own trials and came back stronger on the side of the light.

 

Was being vengful so unlike Kyp though? Now as to Exar Kun possessing Kyp(which apparently isn't open to discussion), I simply don't agree that it was the actions of Exar Kun, and not Kyp, that destroyed Carida, mindwiped Xux, destroyed Daala's fleet, so on. Kun was mentoring him, fueling his anger. But it was Kyp picking the targets.

Han's words were tugging at him before Kun was gone, and he was devestated by Zeth's death, so on. Kun was only guilding him, Kyp was choosing the targets. If Kyp didn't like the idea he hesitated of his own free will. That to me is not possesion. Kyp wanted revenge for his parents, revenge for his brother.......................

"I learned how to be strong. I learned how to fight the Empire, to turn my own anger into a weapon."

Thats the same Kyp that appears in NJO. A more restrained version to be sure, but drawing on those same emotions. He's again driven to despair with the loss of his apprentice and his fighter squadren. He feels like he has to take the fight to the Vong, that there is no other way.

I'm not sure how we can sit back and suggest that Kyp's approach was completely wrong either. He wanted to push the Vong, to save lives in the galaxy, so on.

Luke certainly took the fight to the Vong when Jacen got captured in Darktide............

"We are ready to convene the council of war, right now"-Kyp

"This is not a council of war. Jedi do not go to war. We are protectors and defenders, not aggressors"-Luke

I'd suggest that Kyp had it right and Luke had it wrong Jedi can and should go to war in extreme situations. And I think it fits Kyp's character from JAT.

Of course that only works if you don't dismiss Kyp's every action, every thought from JAT as the sole actions of Exar Kun.

 

I would disagree with Kyp being right and Luke being wrong. Kyp wasn't saying let's go to war because the situation was extreme. He was hurt by the loss of his apprentice, his squadron, his failure. Luke stuck to his beliefs and when he finally realized that the Vong couldn't be reasoned with or lived in peace with, he and the Jedi took up their weapons to protect the galaxy. Kyp was too aggressive and rash which for a Jedi tends to lead to them into Darkness.

Truthfully though I could be totally wrong because it's been a long while since I've read the NJO and these are just the impressions they left on me.

 

I actually rather sympathized with Kyp during the NJO. In Vector Prime, it's pretty clear that his portrayal was a relative afterthought, but from that point forward, his actions seemed very normal for the character for me.

Frankly, I thought his decision to hit the worldship was not only in character but made a great deal of sense - both tactically and strategically. The fact that Jaina didn't approve of the strike at all tells me more about her than about Kyp. His deception made for an annoying point on that count, but frankly, the notion that they did something wrong in destroying a worldship that was not a civilian target annoys me. It was a legitimate military target, and it's not Kyp's fault if the Yuuzhan Vong refused to take care of their own civilians given the opportunity to make such a choice.

His handling in Dark Nest I didn't care for as much, but thought it at least somewhat more normal for him than Corran's behavior. And I rather liked him in LotF.

 

Kyp was right for the wrong reasons.

Luke was wrong for the right reasons.

It was one of the things that annoyed me about the NJO: the lack of Jedi response.

You can't win a war by acting 100% defensively. Vergere's Death Star example was OK, but the best example of the attack on the 2nd Death Star. The Rebellion was in no immediate danger, but they attacked (an offensive action) because it would have wound up killing billions of people. The entire Rebellion was an offensive war, attacking the establishment, and attacking/liberating the planets it controlled.

Even in 1 on 1 combat, the Jedi must act offensively. Stabbing someone with a lightsaber is an offensive action. Cutting off a limb is offensive. Even destroying a blaster is offensive.

The worst moment of the NJO in this regard was probably the Centerpoint/Fondor incident. Using Centerpoint to randomly blast VY ships/planets they controlled, you can argue. But the Vong were attacking Fondor, killing thousands, and seriously weakening the NR's future ability to defend itself. Using Centerpoint to destroy that fleet would have been defensive. But by not acting, the Hapan fleet was nearly wiped out, and Han and Leia could have both been killed.

 

I'd say the degree of possession can be - but COTF has it written in the descriptive text! In any case that ain't the only reason for it: Opening up that can of worms will only send this over very well-covered ground and I'd like this to try to cover some ground that's new.

As to the attack on the worldship MK raises, wasn't there no direct causal link in EoV but was added/changed in SBS? That aside, if it was wrong for the Jedi and NR to destroy a ship under construction because it might hurt the Vong in ways they dislike - and the Vong couldn't have evacuated the Baanu Miir? - then what of the effects of all those Imperial conveys the Rebels raided? Does that make them kiddie-killers by extension?

 

I don't know that Kyp was necessarily OOC in the NJO - although Vector Prime didn't seem to do too much for anyone's characterization; there was, at least, an explanation for why Kyp was so aggressive - he was trying to prove that he wasn't going to the dark side, IIRC.

What I see as a wasted point in LOTF (one of many, but that's getting off-topic ...) is the failure for a mammoth, vicious Kyp-versus-Caedus smackdown.

Jacen was a frequent target (albeit unvoiced) of Kyp's contempt during the NJO for his do-nothing stance. And Jacen didn't hold Kyp in much regard, either. I've viewed Kyp's arguments in pre-Sacrifice-LOTF to make Jacen a Master as an attempt to leash Jacen before he got out of hand.

It's Fury, IMHO, that things just went awry. Instead of planning the attack on Caedus, Kyp should've led it ... and it should've been a knockdown, drag-out brawl. Toss the Jedi niceties aside; get to the core of the characters; and let's see Caedus as Sith.

Instead, we get a few Jedi corpses, Katarn inexplicably defeated, and Kyp ... eh. Never does much, like most of the rest of the Masters. VERY OOC for the leader of the Dozen.

I really hope that at some point in FOTJ, Kyp confronts Daala.

 

Except how does that make sense? "I want to prove that I'm not going to the Dark Side, so I'm going to act like a Dark Sider." Kyp holding Jacen's incredibly passive viewpoint would make more sense as a front put up to prove he's firmly in the Light.

Yes.

I'm not sure Katarn's loss is that inexplicable. He's powerful, but he's not a Skywalker.

 

Excellent discussion and fun to read. Kyp is not a cardboard character. Witness how much we still discuss his motivations even as far back as the JAT series. I think that is good planning and writing and characterization if we are still having these discussions years later.

I just hope there is some development/resolution in the next series with Daala being the COS. That's something that must be addressed.

 

I guess I just don't see how one can discuss Kyp's NJO character as being off without taking into account all the works that came before, including Jedi Academy Trilogy. It's like saying: "Except for JAT Kyp never acted like that, so he's totally out of character in NJO".

JAT set the groundwork for Kyp Durron and the degree of possession is highly subjective, unless one is to argue that Exar Kun respected Han Solo and loved Zeth Durron while he was possessing Kyp.

So in answer to your first post, yes Kyp is out of character in the NJO if we have to exclude every dark aspect about him from the Jedi Academy Trilogy.

I'd love to discuss Kyp, but if we have to exclude JAT I'll respectfully move along.

 

Jedi Ben Remember that Kyp was possessed by Kun (no, there isn't a debate about this, text is in COTF)

Even if Kyp *was* possessed by Kun, the fact remains that Kyp was rather rash in the JAT. And even if he *was* possessed by Kun, Kyp felt very guilty about all of the lives that were lost because of him. That story, "Simple Tricks", was excellent. It showed a remorseful Kyp who was dedicated to spending the rest of his life serving the galaxy as a Jedi to make amends. He was definitely a changed person, no longer so rash and arrogant. He had learned humility.

So, I agree that Kyp in the NJO was out of character for that new, improved, matured Kyp of "Simple Tricks". It was like he was regressed back to before his horrible darkside experience. It does seem as though Kyp was "plugged" into the role of rogue Jedi even though he didn't belong there anymore, just as Luke was plugged into the "passive, pacifist, do-nothing role. That role should have been Jacen's at that point in time. I think both of them were out-of-character through most of the NJO.

Kyp improved a lot later in the NJO, especially by Dark Journey, as he was even able to help Jaina out of her darkside funk. However, he regressed again in DN, (as everyone did!) when he and Corran Horn kept arguing with one another. But Kyp seemed okay in LotF. I wish he would have played more of a role in that series though.

I do think that Kyp's potential has been wasted. The characterization from "Simple Tricks" was a wonderful one, and I was expecting Kyp to go around the galaxy doing good deeds for the rest of his life, helping people wherever he could to make up for what he had done with the Sun Crusher.

 

I'd like for there to be an actual book on Kyp or for someone to actually write him instead of just including him in the book. He's a character with a lot of potential that nobody really uses at all.

 

In my opinion, Kyp has been handled terribly.

I actually really liked his character.

To me, Kyp could have been to the EU, what Anakin/Vader could have been if he lived and had to atone for his actions. I thought Kyp, Luke, and Han could have had some really interesting interactions, and stories dealing with the fallout of everything Kyp did.

Sure, it was touched upon with a line here and there. Kyp was one of Lukes first students, and a very powerful force user, probably one of the most powerful. He has been pushed to the back, heck...

as much as I like Zekk, I think Kyp could have been worthy of his own book, if the character was developed.

 

(nods)

I buy a bit too much into the Cult of Katarn, I fear.

It's interesting to note that Jacen was touted as a highly-skilled duelist even before Vergere or his Force-quest; not that possessing umpteen dozen Force powers is connected to lightsaber skill, I'll be the first to agree.

Back on topic: A quote from Dark Tide I: Onslaught, pg. 32:

The closeness to the edge did not surprise Luke, for he'd seen it develop in Kyp over the years. While still an apprentice, Kyp had been influenced by the spirit of a dead Sith Lord. He'd stolen a superweapon and destroyed the planet Carida, killing billions. Kyp had worked tirelessly to atone for what he had done, but had chosen more difficult and visible campaigns as time went on, so more people could see that he was making amends. This invasion must seem to Kyp as a grand crusade through which he can win the acceptance of his most harsh critics.

- italics from Luke Skywalker's thoughts

Important things to note here - these are Luke's thoughts, and his POV. Just wanted to toss this out in the interest of discourse ...

 

I somewhat like the idea of Kyp not getting forgiven and then going on forever to be perfect and flawless. After almost fifteen years, he starts to push for more aggressive Jedi action -- nothing dark side, just pushing the Jedi to take more direct action. He's bold, willing to question Luke. He's not a simpering penitent for the entire rest of his life.

He was obviously plugged in to the "rogue Jedi" slot in VP, and as much has been admitted, and I wish his characterization had drawn more on Simple Tricks and explained things a little more, but I don't have a problem with the general portrayal.

 

It hate to risk derailing the thread, but: yeah. Kyp wasn't possessed. Influenced, yes; possessed, no.

 

It's easy to get sucked in.

Huh, I hadn't thought about it from a perspective of trying to gain the forgiveness of the galaxy as a whole. That would certainly explain taking a more aggressive tact rather than retreating for passive meditation.

 

Keaton always said, "I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him." Well, I believe in God -- and the only thing that scares me is Kyle Katarn.

 

Having not read the JAT my knowledge of Kyp prior to the NJO was incomplete, however I found his characterisation consistant with what I read in I,Jedi at least. Over the course of the series I found his character interesting and while obviously still a flawed Jedi he proved a good example of how someone can be a good Jedi without being Luke Skywalker version 95. Post NJO I like that they have continued to make him stand out, even as he matures as both a person and a Jedi. He also works well as an opposite to Corran, although I felt it was a little overdone in the DNT, bring on the Corran/Kyp buddy novel I say!

Looking to the future of his character i'd like to see him have a more active role in FotJ, especially considering his history with Daala. Also, while we still know little about him, i'm quite taken by the idea of Seff Hellin being Kyp's padawan, to my knowledge Miko Reglia is his only known apprentice currently?

 

It's nice to see Durron now a frequent background character, but I don't know the bloke from a bar of soap, not since his feature trilogy. Seeing someone talking and swinging a saber---had to specify the saber unless you had ideas about the swinging, you Litfilths---although saber swing is also indicative of---oh shut up, Ex! Anyway... I don't knbow him. What's he really like? They had him flying a "Dozen and Two Avengers" thing. Like a Marvel comic thing. Immaturity unseen since Adumar made you laugh your suppers up a decade ago.

 

Nope, Champions Of The Force has it in the descriptive - not speech or character view -text he was possessed by Kun, but what all of you are missing is the only view this rules out absolutely is that Kyp was not possessed at all - Robimus' post about Kyp influencing the targets can still work just fine with a partial degree of possession.