Leia: A scene by scene analysis of her memories of Padme (& Luke)

yes, i know its been discussed to death...

how does Leia seem to remember Padme, when Luke has no memory of his mother?

I also know the real world explanation is that originally Padme was to have travelled with Leia to Alderaan after Anakin turned and died some years after (but how could this have ever worked in the context of the PT - to have such a major character die off screen?)

this thread, i hope will be a little different.

by analysing the 2 pivotal scenes in this discussion, the ROTJ conversation between Luke & Leia and the birth of the twin s in ROTS, i am hoping to see if we can shed any in-universe light on the subject and come up with any answers


here are the scenes:


EXTERIOR: EWOK VILLAGE - NIGHT

The walkway is deserted now. The windows of the little huts glow
and flicker from the fires inside. The sounds of the forest fill
the soft night air. Luke has wandered away from the Chief's hut
and stands staring up at the Death Star. Leia finds him like
that.

LEIA: Luke, what's wrong?

Luke turns and looks at her a long moment.

LUKE: Leia... do you remember your mother? Your
real mother?
LEIA: Just a little bit. She died when I was very
young.
LUKE: What do you remember?

LEIA: Just...images, really. Feelings.

LUKE: Tell me.

LEIA: (a little surprised at his insistence) She
was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad. (looks up)
Why are you asking me all this?

He looks away.

LUKE: I have no memory of my mother. I never knew
her.
LEIA: Luke, tell me. What's troubling you?

LUKE: Vader is here...now, on this moon.

LEIA: (alarmed) How do you know?

LUKE: I felt his presence. He's come for me. He can
feel when I'm near. That's why I have to go. (facing
her) As long as I stay, I'm endangering the group and
our mission here. (beat) I have to face him.

Leia is distraught, confused.

LEIA: Why?

Luke moves close and his manner is gentle. And very calm.

LUKE: He's my father.

LEIA: Your father?

LUKE: There's more. It won't be easy for you to
hear it, but you must. If I don't make it back,
you're the only hope for the Alliance.

Leia is very disturbed by this. She moves away, as if to deny it.

LEIA: Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power
I--I don't understand and could never have.

LUKE: You're wrong, Leia. You have that power too.
In time you'll learn to use it as I have. The Force
is strong in my family. My father has it...I have
it...and...my sister has it.

Leia stares into his eyes. What she sees there frightens her. But
she doesn't draw away. She begins to understand.

LUKE: Yes. It's you Leia.

LEIA: I know. Somehow...I've always known.

LUKE: Then you know why I have to face him.

LEIA: No! Luke, run away, far away. If he can feel
your presence, then leave this place. I wish I could
go with you.

LUKE: No, you don't. You've always been strong.

LEIA: But, why must you confront him?

LUKE: Because...there is good in him. I've felt it.
He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I can save him.
I can turn him back to the good side. I have to try.

They hold each other close and look at each other, brother and
sister.

 

228 INT. POLIS MASSA-MEDICAL CENTER-NIGHT

The TWINS are being delivered as BAIL ORGANA, YODA, ARTOO, and THREEPIO watch. OBI-WAN is in the operating theater with PADME. He takes her hand.

OBI-WAN: Don't give up, Padme.

PADME winces from the pain. The MEDICAL DROID is holding the BABY.

MEDICAL DROID: It's a boy.

PADME: Luke . . .

PADME can only offer up a faint smile. She struggles to touch the baby on the forehead.

MEDICAL DROID: ... and a girl.

PADME: . . . Leia.

R2-D2, THREEPIO and BAIL ORGANA watch from an adjoining space.

230 INT. POLIS MASSA-MEDICAL CENTER-NIGHT

OBI WAN leans over PADME and softly speaks to her.

OBI-WAN: You have twins, Padme They need you . . . hang on.

PADME: I can't . . .

PADME winces again and takes OBI-WAN's hand. She is holding Anakin's japor snippet.

OBI-WAN: Save your energy.

PADME: Obi-Wan . . . there . . . is good in him. I know there is ... still . . .
A last gasp, and she dies. Obi-Wan studies the necklace.

 

Firstly, I would like to say I was greatly disapointed with the whole birth of the twins scene in ROTS. It would have been much easier for Lucas to have shown us Padme holding up Leia and perhaps dying before she could see Luke...however he didn't.

I have found 2 references in official Star Wars literature regarding this debate.

In the making of ROTS book, in an earlier version of the script it says Padme offers a faint smile "the smile Leia will recall in Episode VI"

In the junior novelisation of ROTS, it claims whilst Luke was born with his eyes shut, Leia was born with her eyes open "as if she wanted to memorise Padme's face"

Now, the birth scene in ROTS doesnt make this clear, BUT the end scenes of the babies being delivered to their respective guardians makes the point known..Leia has her brown eyes open, Luke's eyes are firmly closed...This will not have been an accident on Lucas' part.


Suppose Leia was born with her "eyes open" and was taking in (perhpas through the force) what was going on around her in that birthing room. She will have seen Padme, who was certainly sad and certianly beautiful, but what was this memory of kindness?

its here we have to stretch our imaginations but the only kind thing Padme does in this scene is say she believes there is still good in Anakin...

Fast forward to ROTJ: Luke is revealing the truth of all this to Padme, who is stirred by a vision of this moment in the back of her mind. Luke cant recall his mother, he never saw her. Leia tells Luke to run away, Luke says no because HE BELIEVES THERE IS GOOD IN ANAKIN STILL.

All of a sudden leia doesnt implore luke to run. she can remember this sentiment. she realises luke is right, it was pame who has passed this sentiment onto luke in fact, without him even realising.

 

Luke speaks the exact same phrase

"there is good in him"

This is the key that connects these scenes and maybe, just maybe, Lucas is being cleverer than i originally gave him credit for.


Other things i thought about during the birth scene:

1. Obi-wan holds Luke but not Leia - this not only signifies the bond they will later share, but also Luke's path will be a jedi path.

2. Leia is held by a medical droid - perhaps signifying she will be treated to a more technologically advanced way of life than luke, in the centre of the galaxy, but will also perhaps be less emotional and more calculating.

3. as leia is born, we cut to yoda, bail & the droids...obviously bail & the droids have an interest in Leia, but we are drawn to the fact yoda is there - he realises both twins are a hope for the future.Perhaps obi1 has a more narrow-minded, Luke only view of hope as he is holding Luke, not even looking at Leia.

(that boy was our last hope, no...there is another )

lastly, general observations

Luke is clearly more connected to his father (they can sense each other etc) while acts like his mother (compassionate)

Leia is connected to Padme, but has a lot of Anakins traits (temper etc)


Luke also has visions (Dagobah - like a dream) but its not really questioned by fans why he has visions of his future...why do fans question why Leia should have visions of her past?

I hope this has made some sense & I hope others feel compelled to add to the analysis, although not just baltantly shoot the theories down.

It's bed time.

 

You've said all that needs to be said! I agree





The Force - it gives you visions
/Flames

 

Luke is clearly more connected to his father (they can sense each other etc) while acts like his mother (compassionate)

Leia is connected to Padme, but has a lot of Anakins traits (temper etc)

Nice! Oh and same sentiments of Flames

 

Wonderful post(s), Darth Wolvo. Indeed, however, many of those observations that you bring up have been explored in previous boards. The debate as to why Leia remembers her mother but Luke doesn't, for example, has been often discussed, though without much headway. It has also been observed in the past that Luke is more like his mother's, whereas Leia is more like her father.

Let's not forget that Luke has more in common with his father, and Leia has more in common with her mother. But, of course, we already know that.

What makes Luke and Leia different from their father and mother respectively is the gift they receive from their alternate parent. While Luke has his father's strength of spirit and burden of responsibility, it is tempered by his mother's compassion and understanding. And while Leia has her mother's diplomacy and love for peace, it is backed by her father's passion and will to fight for what she believes in.

 

thanks for the comments guys

i agree with the above and for this reason i think its quite appropriate that Leia can remember how her mother looked, when externally she resembles her

however, without realising it, Luke can remember how his mother felt and internally he resembles her.

 

For any normal fan who just watches the movies 1-6 now it is real simple:

Episode III: Padme, mother of newborns Luke & Leia dies at childbirth

Episode VI: Leia talking to Luke about how she remembers her mother, and he doesn't, "I remember her just a little. She died when I was very young."

Every new viewer when really thinking about what is exactly said will think this doesn't make sense at all.

Plot hole, plain & simple. Lucas sacrificed what he originally wrote and put on screen in 1983 to capture a dramatic death scene for a main character in Episode III.

 

If it was anamorphic that would mean it would be altered from the original version.

You asked for the unaltered version of the OT and you got it.

We shall defend George Lucas, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the message boards, we shall fight on the blogs, we shall fight in the chatrooms and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.

 

^^^ because thats what fans do.
Why should we be expected to criticize and belittle the man who gave us these wonderful stories? Being cynical & snarky doesn?t make you smarter it just makes you a jerk.

As for ? when I was very young?? how do we know that Leia?s fake birth certificate wasn?t backdated to have her born a month or two earlier than she was? It would be a bit suspicious to have a baby girl born on the exact same day Padme died.
I think she remembered the image of her mother and Luke remembered her words.

 

Indeed

And as I state above, why won't fans have equal problems with Luke finding Dagobah familiar (or even Yoda familiar for that matter)

If Anakin can have visions and Luke can have visions, I see no reason why Leia can't also have Force-induced visions.

 

Thanks, I may change my signature now!


Also, it is funny Darthironclad, you were quick to argue with my signature, which has zero to do with this thread, but you failed to argue with one point I made about how it is a plot hole. But then again, you probably don't care cause it doesn't matter if anything makes sense anymore when comparing the saga, as long as their enjoyable!

Then again, you are a Lucas defender, so I guess I should stop arguing now.

 

This thread took quite a lot of putting together by me so if you could stop turning it into a personal Lucas bashing/gushing thread i'd appreciate it.

 

Because Leia says she died while I was very young, that is the sticking point. If Lucas never put that line in there, I probably wouldn't have a problem with her memories of her mother.

Everyone knows that dying very young and dying at childbirth are two totally different things.

Back in 1983, in the Annotated Screenplays, Lucas talks about this scene, but never got too specific with the dialogue. But he talks in the book how Anakins wife takes Leia in exile, and Luke is given to Owen & Beru. That is why he has Leia say she died while very young, not at childbirth, cause Lucas changed the story when writing the PT.

If you want the exact wording from the Annotated Screenplays, I still have the book, and I would gladly take the time to write out what Lucas says in it.

Thanks

 

In future, before posting, try to read the whole thread

Said by me, first post, first paragraph:

"I also know the real world explanation is that originally Padme was to have travelled with Leia to Alderaan after Anakin turned and died some years after

This thread is not for discussing the fact that Lucas changed his original intention

It is for discussing the the way in which the 2 scenes I have quoted above try to link Leia's memories.

 

Sorry Darth Wolvo.


As to the memories of Padme.
You know my take on it. There is a higher power guiding these characters to their destinies. The characters have free will but they're also being guided by a higher power, just like what Forest Gump believes.

"I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floatin' around accidental-like on a breeze. But I, I think maybe it's both, maybe both happening at the same time."

The Jedi and others just call this higher power the Force while others call it gods. Both are right but neither truly understands "the great mystery" as Palpatine clearly calls it, because they're just mortals and that's how it is with mortals.

This higher power gave Leia visions of her mother. As to the reason why it chose to give Leia visions of Padme. So Leia would calm down and understand that Luke has to finish what he was predetermined by a higher power to do. Luke was never born to kill Palpatine, he was born to bring Anakin back. Just like Padme was predetermined to die so Vader would live.

However, anyone can see from the ROTJ novel that Leia spent time with Padme on Alderaan. Lucas made it up as he went along, but so what. It's still a great story if you open your heart to it.

 

"This higher power gave Leia visions of her mother. As to the reason why it chose to give Leia visions of Padme. So Leia would calm down and understand that Luke has to finish what he was predetermined by a higher power to do. Luke was never born to kill Palpatine, he was born to bring Anakin back. Just like Padme was predetermined to die so Vader would live."

Great Post.

 

>>>> Because Leia says she died while I was very young, that is the sticking point. If Lucas never put that line in there, I probably wouldn't have a problem with her memories of her mother.

Everyone knows that dying very young and dying at childbirth are two totally different things.

Do we?
Everyone?

Well, I don't, CJedi.

I just don't understand why "VERY young" cannot mean the age that Leia has her memories....


Great posts BTW, Wolvo.


-JR

 

Cheers

there is a similar narrative thread relating to the issue of Force Ghosts:

ROTS:

YODA: An old friend has learned the path to immortality.

OBI-WAN: Who?

YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force to train me . . . your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn

TESB:

YODA: Concentrate...feel the Force flow. Yes. Good. Calm, yes. Through
the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past.
Old friends long gone.


Not only does this link the 2 scenes, and give us an indication Yoda has indeed been in contact with Qui-gon over the past 2 decades, he also states through the Force it is possible to see the future...and the past.

Now clearly, Luke has visions of the future (Dagobah, Bespin etc)

Why is it unreasonable to think Leia had visions of the past (Padme), as has been suggested above?

 

>>>> Why is it unreasonable to think Leia had visions of the past (Padme), as has been suggested above?

I don't believe it to be unreasonable at all, Wolvo.
It has always been my stance on this topic in other threads.
Yoda's comments to Luke are a perfect explanation of Leia's memories.

As far as Luke not having the same memories, I have always pointed out that Luke has the connection to his father through the Force, whilst Leia is given the connection to her mother.


-JR

 

Exactly.

Does anyone else buy into my theory about Luke being held by Obi-wan but Leia only being held by the medical droid

It rather points to their repective futures (Leia more mechanicistic, technically advanced, expensive - Alderaan, Luke - organic, caring, human - Tatooine).

 

It's hard to say. Certainly there is some symbolic connection when Obi-Wan is holding Luke in the birth scene. I don't really know what Leia being held by a "mid-wife" droid really symbolizes. Certainly her character is very emotionally guarded, but I would hardly regard her character as machine-like.