Lightsaber Choreography:How can be found.

Cheers to all you Star wars fans.I have kind of a problem...u see Iam trying to make some Lightsaber duels with my fellas,but obviously we need a choreography.Any ideas where can I get some(video or text)? I have downloaded some videos from the NewYorkJedi with the basic steps of fighting...but they are too....basic!!!

I believe it would be cool to invent one or two on our own,but I dont think we r the proper men for the task...So please HELP!!!!

 

Watch other movies that have fight scenes in them that you enjoy. Emulate. That's a pretty good way to start. Read the 'ART OF FIGHT CHOREOGRAPHY' thread that's a few pages back, too.

 

Have you tried re-enacting some of the fight sequences from the films? While putting these re-enactments in your final movie would look pretty bad, there is so much you can learn from performing them instead of just watching them.

 

Have you tried coming up with artistic spins and twirls that actually can be used in a fight?

 

Think basic. One hit goes to the left, one hit goes to the right. Aim for the body, not the weapon.

Using fight choreography from movies as a start couldn't hurt, either. It'll help you get a feel for it. There is actually a bit in my very first fight that I got from the TPM choreography video. I've noticed I'm not the only one to practice w/ that, either.

We went so far as to leave it in for the final version of my movie, but it's all of 5-10 seconds long so it'd prolly not too big a deal. Those who recognize it will either think "Ha, nice" or "Thief". Time will tell, I guess.
I've probably got a couple moves throughout my fights you'd recognize from fellow fanfilmers, or even movies we've seen and I'm not even aware of it.
It happens. Just try not to steal outright. Even so, we had to make changes even within that short bit. Not everything works for every fighter.
There's nothing wrong with borrowing the occasional move from this film or that film when you're choreographing a fight, but how you put them together is the important part. Try and take the ones you feel comfortable with and adapting that into something new. A flick of the wrist or repositioning of the arms can yield interesting results.

-Vaportrail

 

Try to emulate RvD2's moves ?
And watch Art of the Saber !

 

Personally I look at using move sequences from TPM pretty much the same way as using dialogue from Pulp Fiction. It's so familiar and blatant that it almost doesn't even count as thievery anymore. It's just laziness. And a 5-10 second section of a fight is a really significant portion.

If you have to steal cool moves -- and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that -- do it in chunks of no more than 2 or 3, peppered throughout the fight. I think of fight choreography as being kind of a language. If you're a writer, you want to do a lot of reading because it expands your vocabulary, your understanding of grammar, and gives you ideas. And maybe you read a turn of phrase or two in your reading that you really like and you use it in your own. That's okay. You can quote more if you credit your source. But to take entire paragraphs as your own is plagiarism.

That's personally how I feel about fight choreography. Take some ideas from here, some from there, mix them together to make your own. There are technically a finite number of words in the English language, and there is technically a finite number of moves you can do in a fight scene (though there are still hundreds of thousands of each, including subtle variations). It's more about how you put them together that makes them special.

It's also helpful to already have ideas and then see how someone else handled it. For example, the "push hands" section of the long shot in RvD2 came out of our independent choreography sessions; the version we came up with, we didn't really think was "cool" enough, but couldn't think how to improve it. Then shortly before filming we saw Jet Li's Fearless, and in the big swordfight against the bad guy, they did a push-hands section that was much cooler than ours, which we adapted to use in that part of our fight.

(And that was still apparently risky. The fact that people sometimes recognize that one move from Fearless inexplicably leads them to conclude that the entire fight, move-for-move, was stolen from Fearless, despite the fact that anyone who watches them can clearly see it's just the one move that's similar.)

Studying good fight scenes in movies is more about the grammar of the fight than the vocabulary, in a lot of ways. In other words, it's more important to learn how and why they use certain kinds of moves, than to just memorize their moves. The push-hands thing helped us make something we were doing cooler, but also noticing how they did big extensions when they stabbed, and dramatic motions when they ducked or dodged, helped free our imaginations to come up with other moves on our own.

The best way to do it is to get your fighters together and have them walk through it, thinking about what they would actually do if they had the time to think about each move. Fighter 1 attacks Fighter 2. How does Fighter 2 block? Does that leave either of them vulnerable? If so, the other should try to take advantage of it. How does the vulnerable person protect himself? And so on. That alone should break you out of the boring and unimaginitive left-right-up-down pattern that all first-time fight choreographers seem to come up with.

 

You always say things better than I do.
English degree vs. Writing minor. That's what that is.

-Vaportrail

 

Well, simply dig up an old movie that has a fight scene that looks good, copy that and hope that no one will remember such an old piece.

Like George Lucas did.

 

When you're an amateur, they call it a rip-off. Professionals call it an homage.


It's a funny clip, but I would never be able to completely copy a fight. That's not what they've done here, either. The similarities are there, but they certainly aren't move-for-move. This could be the 'inspiration' bit I was trying to explain, and Dorkman clarified.

I couldn't take away a whole fight tho... it just feels so wrong.
Like pirating movies. I can't bring myself to do that either (Netflix has been most helpful with my cravings).
[shudder]

The only reason we left the TPM DVD bit in FKaD is that I was trying to keep the first couple of fights the same as FA (tho with some improvements in the 2nd), and I was working with a much tighter schedule and someone who was new to it. I wasn't able to make some changes as I'd hoped. Not trying to excuse plagiarism or anything, I just hope that's not how it is perceived.
It shouldn't be, once you see the film. It makes sense with the story now, more than it did on its own.
Though really, in effect I'm ripping off my entire first duel, but it's the same film and I really liked it how it was before. Obviously, we filmed it differently so hopefully it'll still come off as better.

I wanna go watch some of these old movies now. Just picked up the original Planet of the Apes the other day... ahh, cinema. GL's known for mixing and matching stories as it is, it wouldn't surprise me if this was an intentional nod. This sort of movie seems like it'd be his style.

If you ask me, ripping off something directly pretty much says to the audience that the guy in charge thinks pretty low of you for assuming that no one will 'catch the reference'.

-Vaportrail

 

I was kidding about that copying part. Of course he didn't really copy the fight, but when I saw that Kali-scene a few days ago in TV, Episode III sprang into my mind instantly and I was quite confident that Lucas has seen that movie as well, because the beginnings of the battles with the "ignition" of the sabers are so strikingly similar. I find it rather cool than objectionable.

 

What dorkmanscott said is spot on. Hope I can add and inform as well. In fights I have Choreographed the object of the fight is not the fight itself but a reflection of the characters with in the fight. Their are many ways of showing character through fighting. Are they skilled, novice, noble, underhanded, fluid, or formed? Does the environment add to the fight giving to the fight or is it just pretty green screen work? Does the fight have purpose? How does this add to the movies progression?

show character interaction. It isn't just start Sith=bad Jedi=good lets fight like a video game till one is dead.

You are thinking well how can I get a story with just Choreography short answer you can't. I have a lot of choreography around here from shows, but the truth is with the same choreography you can have infinite fights just buy applying character. Choreography's main jobs is like the script a guide line for the director and actors. Your feet do this your hands do that. The timing and the look is up to you. Watch Princess Bride that was a great fight. Now really watch it write it down if you must, but it is only 6 moves at most they added some flare with the disarms but it's environment and the story that caused that feeling of wow. On a green scene with little foot work it would have bored people to sleep.

In tv some use quick cuts and hard pov's to not show the moves but show that there is a fight it is one way of working a fight. This worked for Xena but was horrible for Elecktra. Why because we wanted to see the end fight in its fullness. Watching Asian cinema you can see how a camera pov and fight create a memorable scene House of the Flying Dagger comes to mind.

Choreography,character,story and in the case of film pov all play their part in the end product. the choreography and story skeleton out the scene. Character adds the muscle. The pov well it's the skin making us look to the good spots.

your characters are also affected by your actors and kit you have. Sure you choreographed a fight were the Sith makes a flying round house kicking the jedi to the level below were the start the fight but if you have no green screening and an actor who can't do a flying round house then you have a problem that is why you must have a good total of your assets.

Ask yourself what you have for time, money, props, sets, kit, and crew. Friends with free time you with food can work wonders! and of course help from these great forums can help with kit. By kit I mean computer help, but also how to set the scenes while filming for making easier computer work, green screening, prop editing, and other post production.

Back to the actors. I find that a three man team of two fighters one audience/choreographer make for an honest team. By honest I mean you will see it suck with 3 eyes better then two and watching the progress on tape helps. Note which attacks and defenses worked for you and in the brainstorming process write down that feel you want for the fight is it a to the death, a surprise encounter, a trap! Who has the upper hand when(if) does it change.

In the planing remember each step of a fight you need an attacker and defender you cannot have one without the other until the last attack it's like a scale. A is attacking B defends B attacks A defends there positions lead to the next action avoid being to friendly in the fight. A fight is danger your guard should be up when you are close, lower farer away. There is a fine line between dancing through the moves and looking skilled. Looking skilled you still are reacting to your partner. Were sloppy acting can make it seem as tho you know everything and there is no danger losing the audience.

http://www.deathstar.org/groups/ros/reference/safdglossary.html

This is a list of almost every fight move without going into kung fu. There are three types of moves. Attacks, defenses, and movements. Movements can be defenses but a lot of times they are foot work there are also terms that relate to choreography these terms help in writing it all down and show

 

Excellent points, Ducky.
I will add two cents that hopefully will be useful.
Dorkman's point of fighter's style lends very heavily to how to choreograph a fight. If both fighters have a defensive style, then one obliviously is going to have to start the attack, otherwise you just have two people staring at each other, saying, "You go first."
If you want some ideas for a lightsaber duel, the 7 forms of lightsaber combat can be a useful point of reference. They are not strict rules, but may inspire some ideas for combat styles for the fighters. Some people may not like them, but it has been useful in the past.
Also, story and character is useful because it gives motivation for the fighters. It may be as simple as fighter a trespassed and fighter B is defending his land, or something more deep like a long extended training session between master and apprentice, where the master clearly has the upper hand, and the apprentice has to be creative to try and win. Story and character is very important to drive the fight, no matter how basic it ends up being.
Focus on something you would like to see done in a fight. The last duel I choreographed started with one idea, and with some brainstorming, blossomed into a whole fight. The idea was a fight on a beach and fighter A knocks fighter B into the water, causing his saber to short out. Now what? How the fight gets to that point and where it goes from there depends all on the fighters and the story. Again, the story does not have to be long and drawn out; even a basic point of reference is enough to create and move the story onward.
My final point is one that cannot be stressed enough and that is practice. Do not expect to be able to choreograph, and film in one day. It can be done, but from what I have seen and done, it turns out poorly. Even a week of practice once you have the choreography done. Practice will make or break how the fight looks, from looking slow and staged, to slow and purposeful. Choreography takes time and practice to get down and looking realistic, so practicing and going over the rough spots is essential.

 

[raises hand]
I've never liked these at all. They're an attempt to formalize the difference in the fighting styles between saga's characters in layman's terms, and give every little thing they do a name. Like anime. Or a fighting game.

It might give you an idea, like you could read the work "Sokan", read the description of "using one's terrain to their advantage" and become inspired, but there is nothing at all formal about this entire mess.

You won't find Vader, or anyone, shouting "CHO MAI!" when they cut off someone's hand. Star Wars is not Street Fighter.



However, just looking around for inspiration can't hurt.
I still don't like it.

-Vaportrail

 

I dont think you should overdo the choreograph in a fight if you just are learning.

Just make whatever you feel is proper. Thats the way you learn. If you lack a interest of movie violence or "Martial Arts" then just let the next person on set work it out.

As for a example: X-men and X2, Bryan Singer cant make a fight scene. He is terrible. But he can make movies. He should have let someone else do the fights.

And you are free to do whatever you want, let both characters attack at same time, or defend. Let them bleed or scream in pain. Its your choice.

By the way, this is the best fight scene ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY1lpIf5Jmg

 

Hey, finally a fight scene where the guy actually looks tired after a few minutes.

 

That movie looks intense!
[adds to top of Netflix queue] Perhaps I should start with the first one? Hmmm.

One-takes, man. They're hard to do. It's so worth it, if you have the time to put in the work.

-Vaportrail

 

Well, I don't shout, "Forehand!" or "Backhand!" or "Overhead!" when I play tennis, but if I am teaching tennis players, knowing the terms is helpful. Whether or not cho mai will be the person's choice in choreographing for a cut. Usually, I just look at the forms for ideas, though most people probably would say, "I fight like Obi-Wan or Mace or (fill in Jedi/Sith name here)." Or, they just do their own way.

Or grapple. I once read an article about lightsaber choreography and combat and the author mentioned that in a real fight fighters don't lock weapons and talk, though I see nothing wrong with that, because it's fiction. However, he points out that grappling and trying to take the other's weapon or gain the upper hand. Grappling can add a bit of color to a duel, and make the fight go a whole different direction.
A way that I choreograph, and I say this to see if this helpful at all, is that at every point of contact between combatants I look to see what possibilities and where the battle could go from there, like a chess game. Whenever a player makes a move, the opponent has options of where to go from there, sometimes a little limited, but still options.

 

You've never seen Oldboy?

Man, you're missing out.

In any case, you should also take some time to put some serious thought to the unique aspects of the lightsaber. It's not just a sword that glows--even the slightest touch of the blade injures, and the ability to retract and extend adds a lot of options.

 

(may of your advice are pretty useful....wait my video,it is going to be huge)