So in ROTJ at the climax of the duel when Luke is using aggression to launch a flurry of attacks at Vader and he eventually over powers Vader and cuts of his hand. Then the Emperor approaches Luke and says, "Your hate has made you powerfull. Now take your fathers place at my side". The next part shows Luke looking at his mechanical hand and then looking at Vaders stump where his mechanical hand used to be. Luke then says, "Never. I'll never turn to the Darkside". Does anyone have any idea what the significance of this scene is? I always assumed that once Luke looked at his hand, then Vaders, he suddenly realises what hate can do to you and what it can cost you and cause you to do, which in turn, brings him back in control of his feelings and calmness and reminds him not to start down the dark path of the Darkside.
When he looked at his mechanical hand, he realized that he was becoming like Vader. He used that realization to calm himself down and defy the Emperor.
It always seemed to me that in the OT there was a current of "machine vs. man" thinking. Writ large with the rag-tag and comparatively more diverse Rebels versus the stark, clean, efficient-but-inhuman Empire. Obviously, both sides used technology, but the dichotomy really being presented was the difference between using machines versus setting up systems wherein people become machines (in a metaphorical sense). Vader brings that metaphor into the literal realm. And the interpretations of Luke realizing he was becoming like Vader come in here. Luke is being goaded into accepting someone else's control - becoming a machine like Vader. And it's happening because he's not calmly accepting his own nature (as a sort of organic machine, if one takes a materialistic stance), but instead allowing his instinctual anger to drive him rather than accepting but controlling it. Then comes the glove/hand shot.
Luke in ROTJ has seen his father as someone who was once noble but fell down the wrong path (per their conversation in the platform hallway on Endor). Instead of just as a bad guy in a black suit. Luke is flushed with his newly found power and then realizes that it's exactly what the Emperor wants. It's pretty clear that Luke sees he is heading down the same path as his father in the moment you mention, and maybe even understands how his father fell -- and has the inner strength to pull back.
I wish people would stop asking this question all the time about Luke looking at his hand and Vader's hand. I mean seriously?? If you dont get it then you really dont understand why he shuts off his lightsaber throws it down and tells the Emperor no. It's not that hard to understand
Maybe because I/other forum users, want to hear other peoples points of view on what they think it means and to see it they agree. If it bothers you that much, don't read the threads or tell a mod if its a duplicate of a recent topic if its asked 'all the time', otherwise, just go away and stay out of threads that annoy you.
Yeah as above. The more interesting idea is what if Vader had just been Vader, with Anakin as a separate character. Would he have killed him, or what if Vader had a human hand
That's where I think there was a difference. When Dooku cut off Anakin's arm - and he in-turn cut of his hands - his desire to kill was based I think out of vengeance and hatred. I don't think he really saw past that. But in Luke's case, seeing Vader's (mechanical) cut-off arm, really drove home that point (and earlier warnings from Yoda about his cave experience, as well as Ben reminding him that Vader was more a machine now) that giving in to hate and anger will lead him to become like his father - and to the Dark Side.
Agreed... it's almost like the vision in the cave was a hint from the Force that Luke didn't quite get yet. Part of Luke's full realization comes when he sees Vader's exposed wires coming out of the wrist, and looks down at his own mechanical hand. He knows Vader is his father before that point, but the visual reminder brings home all the ramifications of that to him.
i always felt luke realized then that his father was a flawed person. feeling an even greater kinship with vader whose very fragility proved this. vader was completely helpless then. luke realized he and his father were the same and that the hated sith monster was a pawn like everyone else.
I agree that this is Luke realizing that he's becoming his father. But perhaps one can look at it another way- through the very fact that Vader had fallen and could allow Luke this back and forth look, and horrified realization that shocks him out of his rage... Vader saved Luke from the dark side as well. Now, hear me out. Luke was very much following his father's path at this point. Remember how Anakin reacted in this situation, with Dooku? He gave in to Palpatine's goading and off went his head. Dooku had separated Anakin from his Master so that he could be goaded into using the dark side. Had Obi-Wan been awake, Anakin might have been persuaded otherwise, and Palpatine's plan to further Anakin's fall here would have failed. With Luke, you have the same situation. No Master to give guidance, the Sith Lord that took his hand and cost him so much pain at his mercy due to the power of the dark side, and Palpatine goading him to finish the Sith Lord off. The difference here, though, is that Vader acted as an example of what not to do. It allowed Luke, as has been said, to realize what he was becoming and let go of his anger and his newfound power, to realize that this was not the way. As the ROTJ novelization puts it, "The only way to defeat the Darkness was to reject it, for good and for all." Had he not had some way to snap him out of that rage, Luke might well have followed in his father's footsteps the rest of the way. So many things came together in Return of the Jedi to ensure Palpatine's plans unravelled- Vader's growing inner turmoil, the Ewoks joining the Alliance's fight, the power of love being stronger than hatred. One might call it coincidence- but in a universe where the Force is the underpinning phenomenon that binds everything else, be it gravity, light, life, matter, energy, destiny, everything together, one would be wrong to dismiss this as mere coincidence. Luke and his father's fates are closely intertwined. The symbolism of Luke's vision in the cave in The Empire Strikes Back, as well as the scene in question, show that Vader acted as an example to Luke as what not to do; conversely, Luke, in his ability to defy the Emperor's seductive wiles and his steadfast belief that not only was he a Jedi, but "I am a Jedi, like my father before me," showed Vader that evil could be resisted. Luke had gone so close to the edge, he had touched the dark side, and he had stepped back. Contra Yoda, it did not forever dominate Luke's destiny... which meant that perhaps Vader did not have to forever remain a servant of evil. Basically, Luke acted as an example to Vader of what to do. That scene, with Luke looking from his hand, to Vader's severed mechanical stump, is the culmination of the mirroring of Luke and Anakin's journeys and lives. They are so alike in many ways, but when it came to that one crucial choice, they chose differently, and it radically altered their destinies- Luke rejected evil, became a Jedi, and lived, while Vader embraced it, was consumed by it, became more machine than man, and ultimately had to die in order to make things right. That they were so alike, but Luke was able to resist where Anakin was not, allowed Luke to act as a catalyst to propell Anakin into fulfilling his destiny. For Luke, becoming a Jedi had always been about his father. "I want to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like my father." -Luke Skywalker, ANH "Mostly because of my father, I guess." -Luke Skywalker, ESB "I am a Jedi, like my father before me." -Luke Skywalker, ROTJ Without that link to his father, and that very personal reminder of the dangers of the dark side, had Palpatine lost Vader somewhere along the way, gained another Apprentice, and used him to goad Luke, one could make a real argument that Luke might not have been shocked out of his rage the way he was in the actual events we received in Return of the Jedi. I say this as a Luke Skywalker fan, someone who's grown up respecting the character's moral fiber, mind
I think seeing the mechanicalness of Vader and comparing it to his own hand made Luke realize he was becoming like Vader. But I also think that Luke may have been reminded of how Vader had cut off his own hand at Bespin. Remembering what Vader had done to him (and how ruthless Vader had been during that fight) made Luke realize he was behaving like Vader. He had given into his anger, and as a result he didn't just defeat Vader -- he hammered him into the ground and maimed him.
Don't worry, it will make sense in the next re-release: Emperor: If you will not be turned, then you shall be destroyed! Luke quickly sticks his hand out, force moves his lightsaber from the ground and cuts the Emperor's hands right off. Luke felt bad for the earlier fight so he offers Vader one of the severed hands as a replacement. Vader refuses with a "No", gets up, and picks the Emperor up to throw him down the shaft. The lightning is removed from the scene as well.
