Luminara is not that good

I am sorry, but I was not impressed with her fighting ability in tonight's episode. I was expecting her to be impressive, yet she gets pwned by Ventress.


I mean, come on. Ventress is not that good at all. Obi Wan owned her in TCW movie, and litteraly toyed with her. Anakin owned Ventress twice, once as a Padawan and the next time as a Knight. Yet Luminara, who's suppose to be a Jedi Master who's more experienced than Obi Wan, gets pwned by her. HUH? Very disappointing, indeed.


Obi Wan Kenobi >>>>>>> Luminara

 

I don't think it was much of a straight on fight... Asajj was just trying to keep her distracted... darting in and out... hiding... etc. Had it been more of a straight on fight like she's had with Obi Wan and Anakin - we'd probably have seen that Luminara would have been able to win. She did get caught a couple of times (the vent gas and the pipes falling)... but for the most part, Asajj never gave her much of an opportunity. I thought Asajj was very ninja-like in this episode, which serves her well when she's up against a Jedi master.

 

It's the ninja vs the samurai indeed, and the battlefield certainly favored the ninja.

 

Yes, I think that's why they refer Ventress to being an asassin, since she has those ninja-like abilities. And I have to disagree, I was impressed by Luminara's fighting style and like others have mentioned, she didn't have much of an opportunity for a straight on fight.

 

Ahsoka had it right when she told Luminara she'd never fought someone like Ventress before. Also, Obi-Wan and Anakin fought her several times (likely together at first if I recall the comics correctly). She was beat down by Mace and Obi-Wan, taken out with more effort by Anakin (though he was distracted with rescuing the hutt) and was made a complete fool of by Yoda

But Luminara had no experience with her. Had several things on her mind (ship's status, safety of the crew, Ashoka's wellbeing, keeping Gunray ALIVE). That, and her smug feeling that she could easily overcome Ventress made her blind to the tricks Ventress had up her sleeve. In a setting like Obi-Wan's, Luminara would have had her.

 

Yeah, but the episode was kick arse. One of the best I've seen in the series so far. The entire plot was good, and the one for next week looks just as good maybe even better.

 

I hadn't seen it yet. Hoe to soon when I access the DVR>
Now would someone please tell me what the heck does "Pwned" mean. or is this merely a typo? And how is it even proncounced.

(If it's not a typo, then why in the seven seas is it even a word????)

 

I don't think that the correct conclusion here is that Luminara isn't that good - I think it's that Ventress is quite powerful.

In TCW, Ventress and Obi-Wan were about evenly matched, and Obi-Wan is the strongest user of Form III the order has. Don't forget how powerful Obi-Wan is - he defeated Darth Maul, General Grievous, and Darth Vader in head-to-head duels.

In Ambush, Ventress was simply outmatched by Yoda. The only Sith that can fight Yoda are Dooku and Sidious. He's the most powerful Jedi in the whole order!

In Cloak of Darkness, we really got to see Ventress shine. She defeated a Jedi Master after a tight battle, and then stood toe-to-toe with both Luminara and Ahsoka, even though Ahsoka is strong in the force for her age.

There is a reason that Dooku trusted Ventress to accomplish her mission. She is no pushover, despite her unfair record of failure - mostly due to being matched against the most powerful Jedi that the order has in Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin.

 

Ventress' greatest accomplishment is beating Ahsoka? HAHAHAHAH!

Ahsoka is a 14 year old twirp who shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as some of the best Jedi. She's a Padawan Learner. A rookie.

If Ventress is so damn good, than why did her sorry ass get owned by Anakin when he was just a Padawan Learner? If Ventress was all of that, she should've beaten him easily. Yet she was the one who got owned. She faced Anakin again when he was a Jedi Knight. Guess what happened? Ventress got her ass kicked, again. Anakin beat Ventress in their rematch, even worse than he did the first time in the mini cartoon.

Ventress isn't that good. There's no way she should beat Luminara at all.

As for Dooku, he's not as good as Yoda. Dooku fled the fight in AOTC, because he knew he couldn't beat Yoda. Yoda was getting warmed up, while Dooku was getting tired. If Dooku would've continued to fight Yoda, he would've lost. Oh and BTW, Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. As good as Dooku is, there's no way he would've easily taken out for Jedi Masters the way Sidious did in Rots.

 

^^ Totally Agree. Ventress is and her fighting style is annoying, at best. In a straight up battle, she would have been killed off along time ago. Ah... If We only had Darth Maul Back... Wishful thinking.

 

That was the mini series, the one where Grievous held a lightsaber in his foot and Sidious knew about Dooku training Asajj as a Sith. And as stated, the environment was in Asajj's favor.

 

I have to say that I think Luminara showed she was remarkably skilled as, for the most part, she was able to hold her own against Ventress despite having the disadvantage in terrain as well as getting that steam blown at her. Ventress, however, was at the top of her game for many reasons others have stated. She's an assassin, she's sneaky, she's used to fighting like that, she's got rage and skill on her side, etc. In a strictly lightsaber only duel, I'm sure Luminara would have held her own, with maybe a slight advantage. Ventress played it smart and took every advantage she had.

My personal belief is despite being ultimately outmatched by Obi-Wan, she is, for all intents and purposes, the Separatist's equivalent to him (or Anakin, depending on your view), in terms of raw talent, potential, and skill, albeit lacking fine control. This can explain her degree of success in facing other Jedi, sort of.

Also, is it just me, or are Luminara's rapid sabre and body movements a throwback to her appearance in the GT Clone Wars shorts? They both involve sharp, almost instantaneous body turns and sabre movements. The dueling portions where she alternates between one-handed and two-handed blows seem to be a new creation, though, and I'm liking it!

 

I thought they definitely referenced Genndy's version of Luminara's style, particularly in her "guard" position.

I agree that Obi-Wan looks even more badass now, as he handled Ventress with relative ease in the TCW film.

Don't forget that most Jedi have never had a real duel against a Sith/Dark Jedi; Obi-Wan has had several, and in the ROTS novelization, Dooku comments on just how far Obi-Wan and Anakin had both come since AOTC.

So Luminara has never had a duel where there are no "rules", and it essentially becomes a street fight. I agree that she more or less could match Ventress with a saber, but not the whole package.


Plus, maybe we should consider that Ventress was essentially facing success or death by Dooku if she failed.

 

That's what I like about her style, I've been wanting to see it since it was mentioned in one of my SW Visual Dictionaries...and I wasn't disappointed.

 

Eh, what? I never said that Ventress' "greatest accomplishment" is beating Ahsoka. She was impressive in the way that she owned Luminara.

Ahsoka is a padawan, but she is obviously very strong with the force. She seems to be at the level of Anakin in AOTC, despite being quite younger. She has obviously devoted herself to growing stronger, unlike Anakin, who disliked his studies and training.

Anakin beat Ventress because Anakin is the Chosen One and he called upon the Dark Side. Not even Count Dooku could beat Anakin when Ani went into berserker mode. That, and Ventress was very inexperienced then - it was her very first mission under Dooku. She hadn't had a lot of training from him yet. Ventress has obviously improved since that fight.

If you watch the episode, you will notice that Ventress beat Luminara. It happened. It is cannon. There's nothing you can say to change that - obviously, Ventress is powerful enough to defeat a Jedi Master. The whole point of this episode was to change the perception of Ventress as weak. They even made Luminara say that she had never faced a foe as strong as Ventress!

Finally, you are wrong about Dooku. Dooku and Yoda are evenly matched. Dooku fled in AOTC because he sensed that the clone army was about to catch up with him, and he needed to escape. It had nothing to do with being overpowered by Yoda.

 

You don't seem to understand what terrain and battle situations can do in a duel. And Anakin did not own her. He beat her in a very difficult fight in which he lost his saber, got slammed into walls, trees, etc. and had to rely on his anger to win. Plus, according to Obi-Wan, Anakin was ready for the trials-hell everything he did in the first Gendy Clone Wars arc was prove he was ready to be a Jedi Knight.

Considering in TCW movie, she beat Ahsoka in two moves.

Sorry, your logic is all torn up.

 

Anakin didn't rely on the darkside until near the end of the fight.

When Anakin got back up on the ledge on Yawin-4, he was owning Ventress. In the temple, he countered Ventress' force push with an even more powerful force push of his own. He knocked Ventress through the stone walls, threw a stone poll at her, splashed water on her face, and drove her back. He was doing this as a Padawan Learner. That looks like a straight up owning to me.

When they faced again, Anakin beat Ventress worse than he did before when he used the force to eletrocute her. This was after Ventress recieved her so-called training from Dooku.

Again, Obi Wan schooled her ass in TCW movie.

If Ventress was so good, than her fighting style wouldn't be so sloppy, now would it? The only way she's competitive, is by cheating and playing dirty, like she's done in the past. That didn't work against Anakin or Obi Wan, because both are willing to give a little back. That, and both are far superior to her.

Ventress would've broken though Obi Wan's defense in TCW cartoon like Dooku did in AOTC and even in Rots, if she was so good.

Luminara losing proves she's not as good as what everyone thought. Ventress is weak!

 

Anakin beat Dooku in Rots because at that point, he was more powerful than Dooku. Lucas said that fight was to show how powerful Anakin has become, since AOTC.

Dooku also ran, because he knew he couldn't beat Yoda. Dooku is not as powerful as Sidious, and Yoda fought Sidious to a standstill in Rots. If Yoda can fight an ultra-powerful sith to a drawl, the same sith who took out four Jedi Masters, than what do you think Yoda would've done to Dooku? Let's be real, here.

As for Ventress, while she l

 

Ahsoka has held her own against both Grievous and, in this last episode, Ventress. Remember, Ahsoka defended herself successfully against all of Ventress' attacks. She "didn't need saving!" She was defeated by trickery, not overpowered.

You are probably thinking that I'm contradicting my other position that Ventress is underestimated, don't you? It is obvious from watching the fight in the cell-block that Ventress was toying with Ahsoka before bypassing her to get to Gunray - if she had wanted to take the time to finish her off, she could have, but that would have been wasted time. She needed to act fast.

Why do you keep saying that Obi-Wan owned Ventress in TCW? From the way I remember that fight, Ventress actually disarmed Obi-Wan at one point! Later, she smacks him against a pillar. Their duel was not nearly as one-sided as you are saying.

When a Jedi Master herself says that Ventress is a formidable foe, I believe her.

Remember what Anakin's reaction was when he and Ahsoka were caught on the ledge of the Temple in TCW with Ventress cutting through the door? Was it "no problem, Ventress is a light-weight"? Nope - he actually said that it was "time to leave"! Anakin has a healthy respect for Ventress' fighting skills -you should too!

 

ok, let me get this straight: because Ventress can't handle the most powerful Jedi in the entire order (and the "chosen one") she's weak?

The way I look at it is this: Sidious is on the same level as Yoda, Dooku is on the same level as the rest of the council, and Ventress and Grievous are on the level of a high end jedi knight or low end jedi master (or in this case an overconfident half-blind jedi master)

I think if Luminara meets Ventress again (which I hope she does) things will go very differently.

 

First of all, Anakin's focus was on his mission, not fighting Ventress. He was under strict orders by Yoda himself, to deliver the Huttlet back to Jaba. He could care less about Ventress at that point. If he wanted to defeat Ventress, he would've done so. He knows he can, as he's done it twice, before.

Second, of course Ventress can beat Ahsoka. Ahsoka is just a damn youngling who's no where close to being at Obi Wan or Anakin's level. Fighting Ahsoka is like fighting a damn child. Matter of fact, it is fighting a child. She's no real threat at all. If you are basing Ventress' accomplishments on beating that little twirp, than its more proof that Ventress isn't that good.

Third, Ahsoka isn't that formidable at all. If she really was, than why was Dooku dismissive of her in TCW movie? Why would someone as undisciplined as Ventress be able to toy with her? Let's be real, here. On the other hand, Dooku told Grevious in a previous episode not to underestimate Anakin. You know why? Because Dooku actually has respect for Anakin's abilities. This is the same guy who for a minute, actually held his own against Dooku in AOTC, before getting his arm chopped off. The fact that Anakin, as a mere Padawan, survived against someone as skillful as Dooku has probably caused him to respect Anakin. That, along with him being a major thorn in his side in the Clone Wars. That's why he went to take care of Anakin himself in TCW movie. Would he have done that with Ahsoka? Um, no. Ahsoka is just a kid, whereas characters like Obi Wan and Anakin are grown men who actually can win battles by themselves.

Fourth, Obi Wan was toying with her. She got a lucky shot in knocking Obi Wan's saber away, but he alluded her attacks quite easily and retrieved his saber. If Ventress was this ultra-kewl villain, she would've finished Obi Wan off as soon as she disarmed him. Yet, she didn't. Than, Obi Wan continued to fend off Ventress' most vicious attacks, and later disarmed her. Than, the cowardly Ventress ran away. So again, Obi Wan owned her ass.

So again, Ventress isn't that good. Her only strength is that she fights dirty, which is an indictment on her because again, her fighting skills are undisciplined. If her style was disciplined, than she would've finished Anakin off when he was just a Padawan. Yet Anakin (mind you, when he was still a Padawan) ended up owning her ass. He beat her worse the second time around when he eletrocuted her. She can't stand up to Mace or Yoda. Dooku is way beyond her. Obi Wan litteraly toys with her.

Ventress is what she is, a wannabe sith who wishes she was good, but deep down, knows that she's not. That's why she's so damn obsessed with Anakin and Obi Wan, because she knows both

 

I've never read any Star Wars comics. What I can see onscreen is what I base my canon about. I don't know anything about this second Anakin vs Ventress fight that you keep alluding too, so I can't really comment on that.

All I can do is point out that Ventress was Obi-Wan's match in TCW, was beaten by Anakin only because Anakin is the Chosen One and was channelling his rage, that Anakin has a healthy respect for Ventress' fighting skills, and that Ventress didn't have any trouble defeated a Jedi Master one-on-one and later holding her own against both a Jedi Master and an extremely powerful Padawan.

 

I think alot of people look at duals as being the end all be all in ranking jedi, as in who is better than who. Take boxing for example style is a factor in how they all match up. Each dual is different than the last. While we are being uber nerds here isn't there 7 different types of lightsaber styles. Maybe some jedi struggle with some styles and not with others.

 

I've never read any Star Wars comics. What I can see onscreen is what I base my canon about. I don't know anything about this second Anakin vs Ventress fight that you keep alluding too, so I can't really comment on that.


She got owned. Badly. Think Dooku when Anakin got pissed off at him on the Invisible Hand bad.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Epa1patine. Most people in this thread are taking those duels as absolute numerical qualifications of the fighters, and that's just not the case. Somedays you win, somedays you lose, some people you have an edge against, some you just can't figure out until it's too late, it doesn't necessarily mean that so is better than so. Just compare the Jedi to sportsmen. If someone won the gold medal once, it doesn't mean they will do it again. Next week they can be "owned" by one of the kids who didn't even qualify for the finals. The only way to honestly say who is better than who is to look at the span of their whole careers. And even so, you could not be sure who would beat who in a faceoff, just who is more likely to.