Lumiya - What were her true plans. Did she succeed or fail?

This has probably been discussed over and over in various forms here and there in the LoTF threads, but I got to thinking and wanted to get some idea of what others feel on this issue.

For the heck of it I reread some of LoTF from Betrayal to Inferno. I realized...I'm not sure what Lumiya's intentions actually were. Here are some possibilities.

1. She truly believed that Jacen Solo was the right guy to bring the Bannite type Sith back to prominence and establish order in the galaxy.
2. She Knew of the one-sith and wanted to ensure that they remained protected until the time was right.
3. She simply wanted to hurt Luke Skywalker as badly as possible. I'd say having his best student turn to the darkside, kill his wife, nearly take his son down the dark path, and eventually torture his son. She gets bonus points for "Tainting" Luke Skywalker when she sacrificed herself after Mara's death.

So let me go over the logic for some of these.

1. I find it hard to believe that she really really believed in Jacen Solo. As late as Sacrifice she was chastising him about his constant need to deal with the "Little" people. The passing laws for procurement thing seemed to really irk her. In the end, she felt something in the force shift (Death of Mara) and suddenly decided that he would be above all the mundane things. The thing I don't like is that it didn't change the fact that there was a wildcard that she JUST found out about (Tenel Ka/Allana), Jacen was starting to act fairly bizarre, he was still caring too much about the little things....essentially he STILL needed some guidance from her. There was a perfect opportunity to shift some things around to try to get this pinned on the crazy bugslut. Heck, maybe she could convince Alema that the balance was restored because of the pain the SkySolo's were feeling. That would have kept Lumiya around to make sure that the new Darth Lord avoided failing so epically.

2. It was a relatively peaceful time for the GA. Without all of the Jacen insanity I do not think that the Corellian Conflict would have been so drawn out. If the Jedi were given too much time to simply do...Jedi things. With Jacen Solo nosing around and looking for every band of force users, it's possible that he may even have found his way to Korriban. If ANY Jedi at the time would be able to uncover the secret Sith hideaway...I would think it would be Jacen. Jacen having Lumiya talk sweet sentences in his ear was a far better method to turning him than having him stumble across a huge enclave of Sith. He would have probably escaped/alerted the other Jedi of their existence.

3. For reasons I discussed in aspect one...I don't think Lumiya really had that much faith in Jacen in the end. She was bitter and saw the time being ripe for one last go at causing the Jedi a maximum amount of pain. Seems reasonable to me.

I really think that Lumiya working with the "One Sith" really makes a lot of sense...especially given that Krayt says years later that Caedus was a lightning rod to distract the Jedi from finding out about them prematurely. Everything that happens in Legacy of the Force fits perfectly with possible early goals of the One Sith - Destabilize the GA, Strain relations with the GA and Jedi, Hurt and thin the ranks of the Jedi, and give the Empire a chance to start growing.

Anyone else have an opinion?

 

What better way to revenge against her ex than corrupt his nephew?

 

[image=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/4b/Shira_Brie_EGF.jpg]

This was the moment of her epiphany. What she couldn't accomplish thriugh martial brawn against that wimp, Skywalker, she enacted via strategm.

 

Cool topic!

Good ideas, Sinrebirth, but is it also possible that the One Sith are behind this Force-madness? We all know they are headed up by Krayt, who we can assume is in stasis now. We know that this is the end result --- Krayt's order lying in wait for when the Jedi were at their most vulnerable (Ossus project); but how can they just sit there during FOTJ, when the Jedi are critically vulnerable, and not do anything about it? I have a hard time believing it. Why did Denning and Allston just introduce this new Sith Order into the novels just to not mention them again for another 100 standard years??

I have found that this prediction is not a popular one among fans, because the One Sith 'are not suppose to emerge until the Legacy era.' I agree with this to some extent, but also cannot quite swallow the fact that an organization of Sith would just stand by while Skywalker is off in self-exile, and the GA have turned on the Jedi. My guess is that this 'Force sickness' has something to do with them. But it's only a guess. If this thing fails (which it probably will) there are plenty of ways the One Sith can insulate themselves from it all.

 

Well, Aaron Allston has stated his belief that Lumiya's entire goal was to revive the Galactic Empire. So, this is a Word of God sort of thing that Lumiya was not interested in revenge against Luke Skywalker for the most part. I think she's genuinely telling the truth that hurting him is no longer really a priority. At this point, she's moved beyond such pettiness of emotion since she's no longer a disgusting cyborg but a fairly attractive seeming Human Replica Droid version.

Instead, the best way to look at Lumiya is a person who believed very strongly in the idea that Jacen Solo was her way of bringing about a new Darth Vader/Emperor Palpatine. He was universally loved by the galaxy, he was almost as powerful as his Uncle, and he was a man who was educated in vast amounts of the other Force techniques. Lumiya believed as the One Sith did that the galaxy needed to be under Sith control but didn't intend to wait a hundred years so the Jedi could recover to their original numbers.

So, she chose Jacen as her Neo-figure with her as Morpheus. The irony is, with Fate of the Jedi, that it's entirely likely that she was attempting to make Jacen Solo her champion of the Sith while he was genuinely sick of mind rather than someone that was the Dark Side Demigod that she wanted him to be.

So, yes, it's a much more interesting story that she failed and failed utterly. It's also pretty much canon.

 

You know, the Sith in Cade's era were mostly born Sith with a few exceptions, meaning Krayt indoctrinates them from birth. In Luke's time you would think that most of Krayt's recruits had their own lives beforehand and therefore haven't had all their personal ambition and self-preservation weeded out of them. What if a faction within the One Sith go against Krayt's wishes to remain hidden because they think with Luke out of the way it would be a perfect time to strike. The whole of the One Sith can remain hidden but that doesn't mean a few couldn't sneak out and wreak havoc. Btw Allston created Dician, he could use her as a villian, maybe.


And about Lumiya, she reminds me of that movie about David Gale. She was willing to die just to prove she was right. But ended up looking pathetic.

 

I probably should have looked through your recent posts for opinions on this topic, actually. I actually botched my post as I meant to mention the Alema Rar/Lumiya discussion about the Plan. The "One Sith" pretty clearly demonstrated that they were not interested in supporting Caedus's power grab...feeling the time was not right. Perhaps they deceived Lumiya in some way but by their reactions when Alema shows up they seem to have made their stance perfectly clear. They would not intervene on his behalf, try to wrangle him into their club, or give him guidance. THAT is one of the things that makes me wonder what Lumiya's true plan was.

I am not sure that I like the idea that she failed utterly. Lumiya was shown to be very calculating with many different moves planned well in advance. The idea that she couldn't see that her new "Dark Side Demigod" was falling apart right in front of her eyes and she still ran off to sacrifice herself to buy him time bothers me. Perhaps though, it was more suicide and less sacrifice as she didn't want to be alive see the scenario she had so carefully planned crack faster than Telbut's fragile neck.

I don't know if the Jedi are necessarily going to be FRAGILE during the FOTJ era... Although Luke floundered through the early part of this series, he started to exhibit force powers probably as crazy as any we've seen in the era since

 

Honestly, I think that would be the LEAST characterization problem with Star Wars: Legacy of the Force.

I think it's fairly cool to look at Shira Brie as this woman who envisioned herself as the next Obi Wan Kenobi, a sort of guide and mentor for someone for the Next Generation of the Sith. I like to think that Shira Brie actually was at least as complex a character as Darth Krayt. A woman who genuinely believed in the Darth Vader version of the Dark Side. I.e. that the Sith way is to bring order to the galaxy and not serve one's own selfish interests.

If there was a "To Fall So Far" thread, I'd state that Shira Brie was the second Secret Apprentice of Darth Vader. His attempt to create someone who would follow his own twisted and imperfect merging of the Jedi and Sith philosophies. A person who believed the Dark Side was not good but could be put to positive ends. While she was the Emperor's Hand, she was DARTH VADER'S apprentice and his Second. The daughter that he never had and person who believed most in him.

So, when Darth Vader was redeemed by his own son (the man who destroyed her body), Lumiya dedicated herself to spiting Luke. Instead, she repeatedly was defeated by him and she missed her one chance to become Empress of the Galaxy due to the fact that she couldn't maintain an Alliance for more than five minutes. Left alone and broken, she returned to her Sith training and Emperor Palpatine....

And found the Emperor was stark raving nuts.

Disillusioned and disappointed by what she found, she took Carnor Jax under her wing and made him her apprentice as she was surprised but delighted to find he had taken the resolution to eliminate Palpatine. Shira Brie believed it was time to eliminate the refuse from the Sith Order and start over. She destroyed Flint the Half-Sith who had betrayed Darth Vader's Legacy and then murdered all of the Prophets of the Dark Side (destroying Palpatine's legacy). Carnor Jax and she were going to remake the Empire as an egalitarian but powerful fascist society.

Then Kir Kanos killed her apprentice and no one would follow her.

Time passes and Shira tries vainly to prevent the Empire from hemorrhaging while Luke Skywalker continues to rebuild. Only when the Yuuzhan Vong strike and she meets Lumiya, does she resolve the spiritual crisis she's suffering. Basically, realizing that the "Gardener" philosophy is true. Darth Krayt and she also meet, agreeing that the Jedi Way and Sith way are reconciable.

But who would be the new Dark Lord of the Sith? Darth Krayt wanted to wait for centuries. Vergere ultimately pointed the Way. Anakin Skywalker's grandson, Jacen Solo (it would have been doubly ironic if it was Anakin Solo). Taught by Vergere, the Potentium Heretic who had an appalling habit of having her students go Dark, Lumiya went to Jacen and offered him all of her Sith knowledge. Lumiya could never be Dark Lord of the Sith because she was a FOLLOWER even when she was mentoring folk like Carnor Jax. A slave to a 35 year dead master who had recanted all of his beliefs at his death.

Why was Lumiya willing to die for Jacen? Because, in the face of ANOTHER failure, she couldn't rebuild. At 60 years of age, she had seen too many plans of her crumble. She bet everything on Jacen and refused to believe herself mistaken yet again.

 

Doesn't matter that much, since Word of God from Matthew Stover is that the Potentium view of the Force is accurate (or, at least, is a valid way to look at things) and that Vergere was indeed not a Sith.

But since he's not George Lucas, his opinion doesn't matter and can easily be retroactively changed by the next guy.

 

The Potentium was something created for Rogue Planet and intended from the start to be incorrect. Stover's ideas as presented in Traitor are something else entirely.

 

#1, and it's cannon for the reasons Char gave.

 

Lumiya won.

She may not have brought about a new Empire in her time, but she excelled at doing what a Sith does best.

She is ultimately responsible for the deaths of Mara Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and countless others; as well as all the pain that brought to the galaxy and the surviving Skywalker-Solo family in particular.

She is ultimately responsible for the Second Galactic Civil War, the ascension of Daala to chief of the Galactic Alliance, and the public loss of confidence in the Jedi.

Lumiya died on her own terms, she chose when to lay down her life. She died in battle against Luke Skywalker, no less, who by her actions she also brought dangerously close to the Dark Side in ways Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader never succeeded in doing.

She or her creation may not have personally recreated the Empire, but look at all else she had done. Plus, she is indirectly responsible for getting Daala in charge of the Alliance, which may closely resemble an Empire by FOTJ. She also drew the Jedi's attention away from the Darth Krayt and the One Sith on Korriban, indirectly helping them take over and create their Sith Empire many decades later.

No government is permanent in Star Wars, no one will ever create a lasting democracy or empire. But what Lumiya was able to accomplish is something few villains in Star Wars have, so in my midn she won. The creepy part is, she also knew she won, all the way back at the end of BETRAYAL.

Lumiya knew she won.

 

Mathew Stover is also a man who pointed out that what he had Vergere say WAS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY AS FACT either. I love Mathew because he was the guy who actually came onto the boards to state that he never said there was no Dark Side either.

Frankly, what Mathew Stover intended in the original books IS canon UNTIL IT'S OVERRIDDEN.

It's just silly otherwise.

Lumiya won in the sense that she caused no end of grief for the Republic and the Empire but in the end, only resulted in further discrediting the kind of government that she wanted. She thought she was recruiting Nietzsche's Uberman and what she got was the Hamburglar instead.

Basically, Luke and Lumiya destroyed both of each other's happiness.

 

I had a whole thing about how Lumiya had won, but Charles' argument just convinced me that she lost.

 

Oh thank you. I had no idea it was so persuasive.

 

would have been nice if she'd had a Darth title... before she died

 

I figure Lumiya was a genuine Sith Lord.

But always the apprentice, never the Master.

 

hence why she needs a Darth moniker...

 

Remember when you could be a badass Sith Lord without being named Darth? Good times.

 

Yes, but Naga Sadow and Exar Kun would have been cooler if they had a Darth Monikor.

Palpatine is the only Sith who it didn't affect.

 

and perhaps you should also remmeber that Lumiya follows the Rule of 2, which in turn means she does qualify for a Darth name. Tis in their rule.

 

Yeah.

Darth Lumiya would have been way cooler, though.

 

Good points. I'm sure we'll see them working behind the scenes to strengthen the Empire, convince Jag to take full control or somehow arrange for it. But, IMO, from the few blurbs we've already gotten, the Jedi will be extremely vulnerable in FOTJ. It was described as 'The media turning citizens into Jedi haters and going on a witch hunt.' With Daala as enemy #1, the Mandos to back her up, and the GA citizens turning against them, AND Skywalker off on exile, I would say that they are going to be very fragile --- especially since Valin and Seff are playing the game for themselves under the influence of some dark side madness, that may be a direct result of the One Sith trying to take advantage.

 

Definitely.