Macbeth and Palpatine

This thread deals with William Sheakespere, more specifically his play Macbeth's influence on Star Wars.

Macbeth: Deals with the rise and fall of a Scottish noble named Macbeth. He manipulates others and kills the King in order to be the new King. The King's sons in fear of him run off and hide in other countries. Macbeth rules as a tyrant untill one day his castle is attacked. He is extremely over-confident and thinks nothing will ever hurt him. Eventually he is killed by the soldiers who were working for the dead king's two sons.

Palpatine: Is a man who manipulates the Republic and makes it his Empire. He rules for a short time and the two Jedi Knights have to go and hide. The Emperor becomes very over-confident and knows that no one will ever hurt him. Finally an army or fleet attacks his castle which is the Death Star.

More specifically Macbeth's castle is invaded by what looks like trees because the soldiers hide themselves under the plants.

Palpatine does not fear the small fleet because his Death star is so grand.

Darth-Seldon

 

Interesting idea, here's a weak example but its the best I can think of:

Both Macbeth and palpatine are killed by someone who had an unusual birth or conception.

Macbeth is killed by Macduff, who was "not of woman born."

Palpatine is killed by Anakin, for whom, conversely, "there was no father."

 

Yeah that is a great idea. I never even thought of that one.

 

Wow, Good insight.

The one thing i notice that is different is Macbeth had his manhood put in question and was basically pushed into the direction he went to fulfill his wifes ambition.

Whereas Palpatine simply lust for power and control without another external factor pushing him in that direction.

 

Intriguing...

Now, the question becomes... would the prequel trilogy have been more interesting had it had a Lady Macbeth figure?

 

I personally think Palpatine should have a wife in Episode III. I think she should have been in AOTC also.

 

FYI- The actor who plays palpatine in the movies(Ian McDiarmid) also plays the role of Ross in a play version on VHS of Macbeth. *Interesting*

 

Ty-Gon-Jinn: would the prequel trilogy have been more interesting had it had a Lady Macbeth figure?

But it DOES! The Lady Macbeth figure in AOTC is THE DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE!

 

We are reading this in my Brit Lit (British literature) class. I think this comparison may help me with my homework. It gives me a good modern comparison. Thanks Everyone

Axl

 

You could say that Palpatine is like a Lady Macbeth figure to Anakin. I haven't read the play in a while, so I may be a bit fuzzy. But Palpatine, like Lady Macbeth, manipulates Anakin into doing evil deeds.

 

Vader is more of MacDuff. When Palaptine takes over Vader acts like a loyal servent and then he kills his master. Just like MacDuff.

But maybe the darkside is Lady Macbeth. I think it would have been good to have a real evil woman as his wife.

darthseldon

 

Also, with Lucas' refs to Akira Kurosawa films, It can also be noted that Kurosawa did an adaption of Macbeth called "Throne of Blood"....

 

Nice ideas,

any other thoughts on this matter?

SELDON

 

Interesting, since I don't think McDiarmid was in films before ROTJ, but nevertheless there is a video of him playing two supporting roles in MacBeth, opposite the leads Ian McKellen and Jedi Dench. However, we've all committed a cardinal sin here: we mentioned The Scottish Play by name.

 

Hmmmm wonder if you could make a case for Obi Wan, Yoda and Anakin being a bit like the Three Witches.

 

No, I think Palpatine, Dooku and Maul would be the three witches. Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan are more like the Knights who say Ni!

 

Palpatine is like Macbeth that is what this thread is about.

Vader is Macduff is our second point.

I don't know about what you guys are saying.

 

Though I haven't read Macbeth since high school, my first thought would be that Anakin would be more like Macbeth.

Macbeth is a tragic human figure who is not totally evil, yet comes under the spell of evil.

I recall the line:

"Is this a dagger I see before me, handle towards my hand?"

Just the kind of thing that might be going through Anakin's mind as he is tempted in Ep. III.

Just my two credits worth.

 

Well is Luke like Malcolm then? forced to hide to stay alive?(with alliance)

And Leia is like Lady Macduff because all the people close to her (Alderaan) are killed?

 

Leia is not really Lady Macduff because she gets killed in the play.

I think that Palpatine = Macbeth
And Vader=Macduff

That is all. I think that is the extent of Macbeth's influence on SW.

 

Okay, great, you compared similarity for Macbeth and Palpatine. However, if you really do want to tie a play by the Playwright to a story by George Lucas, one of our age first mythical story-teller, at least has the courtesy to compare it using the methods of literature.


Macbeth is classically known as a tragedy play. A heroic character, was turned to evil through a women ploys, but later redeems himself in the eyes of the audience. Classic hero tragedy by Shakespeare, seen in other tragedies like in the character of Brutus and even Mark Anthony.

If the story of Macbeth was to be tied to the story of Star Wars, it should become clear that it should focus on the tragic hero of Star Wars. Anakin Skywalker,(Macbeth), Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith(Thane of Fife and of things to come) and in his death, redeemed his heroic status through a valiant scarifice, just as Macbeth decided not to "play the Roman fool" and commit sucide and decides to fight it out with Macduff. We see the remains of his compassion when he refuse to slay Macduff, saying that he has too much of his family blood on his hands. We see his former valour, when knowing the truth that Macduff was not naturally born of women, he did not surrender as had the lesser soldiers but fought the good fight. And just as in the end, both Anakin and Macbeth realise the untruths they have been told and give up evil, showing us their good side that they have sundered to evil. "Once you start down the dark side, forever will it dominate your destiny".

As a hero worship, we do know that both Anakin and Macbeth has this complex. Macbeth valour against the traitor thane, his good deeds was what was cause for his promotion to Thane of Fife. Similarly, we also know that Anakin strong force powers, and probably his intervention against the Federation forces at Naboo was what convinced Yoda to finally allow him to start Jedi training. Yet, just as Macbeth valour and prowress was what created his advancement, it was also the cause for his fall by igniting his desire for kingship and his final battle and death. Ergo, same goes for Anakin, whoose strong Force powers led to arrogrance and his decision to control the destiny of others, to stop death even. This is the key concept behind that of a tragic hero. His one virtue was what allowed for his advancement in rank, but would be what caused his downfall. Brutus honour and love for Rome and freedom led him to the evil act of killing Caesar.

Both Macbeth and Anakin had a close friend. Both became wary of their friend motives and powers. And ultimately, both of them turned against their close friend, and ultimately killed them. And although not "literature" in nature, both of them returned as ghosts to taunt their murderers .

More importantly, the death and murder of their close friends signified the "turning" point of evil.However, this relationship would not be fully echoed in star wars, merely reflecting the relationship in the duel between Obi-wan and Anakin, and the turning of Anakin to Darth Vader at his resurrection from the lava pit.

 

opposite the leads Ian McKellen and Jedi Dench.

Was that an intentional typo?

I can see the notion of the Dark Side as Lady Macbeth, but on the other hand she loses her marbles because of what happens...

If there's a planet Cawdor in Ep3, you could be on to something

 

Painrack I am not comparing the over all story of Macbeth and SW. I am comparing the characters of Macbeth and Palpatine.

Macduff was not born a woman and Anakin also had a strange birth. Because of this I compared the two.

Macbeth and Palpatine both rose to power and both were over thrown.

While this is true there are major differences between the stories of the two. All I am really saying is that
Macbeth=Palpatine

Seldon

 

Sledon, your topic, and even your opening post state that you were comparing William Shakespear play and its influence on Star Wars.

Furthermore, you even concluded that the similarly between Palpy to Macbeth, Macduff to Anakin was the end of any possible influence Macbeth had on Star Wars.

I find it hard to believe that you were only comparing the characters Macbeth to Palpatine only. Like I said, if you wish to compare the two works together, at least do it properly. Even if I was to take your stand that you were only comparing the characters, when everything you posted suggested otherwise, the similarities between Palpatine and Macbeth could have been extended ad infinitium for any other evil crackpot in fiction and is overruled by the massive contradictions and differences in motivation, character and behaviour between the two.

IOW, even your stand that Palpatine= Macbeht is badly done.

 

If the story of Macbeth was to be tied to the story of Star Wars, it should become clear that it should focus on the tragic hero of Star Wars. Anakin Skywalker,(Macbeth), Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith(Thane of Fife and of things to come) and in his death, redeemed his heroic status through a valiant scarifice, just as Macbeth decided not to "play the Roman fool" and commit sucide and decides to fight it out with Macduff. We see the remains of his compassion when he refuse to slay Macduff

Like I was saying above, I believe Anakin is more analogous to Macbeth. And perhaps Luke could be compared to Macduff in this regard.

And for what it's worth, I don't believe that Macbeth had any direct influence on GL's writing of Star Wars. But it is cool to compare.