Mace Windu vs. Count Dooku

I am still undecided as to this very difficult question. Perhaps we can agree on a tossup. A lot will involve who's a more popular character, I bet, but try to be objective. Dooku was considered the second best duelist in the Order after Yoda, but Mace defeated the Emperor. Difficult to solve, this puzzle is.

 

Dooku. He's one of the few to break Mace's Vaapad, there's the theory going around of Palpatine's throwing the fight and Dooku being nearly on Yoda's level...add THAT to Mace's own admissions

 

It is definitely a good question. Yoda was the best swordsman in the Order with Mace in a close second, although their fighting styles were quite different. Mace 'defeated' the Emperor and would have ultimately ended him if it wasn't for gay Anakin. Yoda 'lost' to the Emperor (according to Yoda) although I saw it more of a draw, leaning towards a win for Yoda. Yoda schooled Dooku and would have easily ended him if it weren't for Obi-Wan and Anakin being in trouble. Then, later in ROTS we saw Anakin single-handedly defeat Dooku. I think that this creates a good argument for Mace being able to defeat Dooku confidently. Don't get me wrong - I believe it'd have been a kick ass battle, but Mace should have won.

 

Cackles Madly in the background

If you think about this kind of stuff come on over to the Jedi Draft on the SWC forum. It's a great game we socialize, argue, draft, argue, have fun, argue. Its a wonderful game and its starting up tommorrow.

BTW, Dooku wins. Take that E_S.

 

Exqueese me, but we haven't seen Dooks do a SINGLE thing in either book, movie, or comic format.

Anyone can swing a sword and shoot cliche lightning. That says nothing. And why do you think I was outraged with Rendezvous? Because comlink calls went up 5 minicredits? No. Two lethal masters of the wizard order---and all they did was swing swords.

Which all other lesser Jedi have done for 15yrs of published material.

No backflips, sneak attacks, EXOTIC force displays---nothing. He's a master of Sith, and Yoda drove him back. Thus consumers have literally seen Dooks do nothing special. He may have lightninged Tinte's guards, but they're mundane mortals.

I, personally, have not seen Dooky do anything special and above par for his training and rank. It's inconceivable to think Windu couldn't take him out.

 

Still undecided, I am

 

Excellence-don't underestimate Force lightning. It is a very rare and powerful ability. You have to be very powerful in the dark side to use it. Vader could have, though his arms were cut off.

 

The whole point of Dooku's fighting is finesse and effectiveness against dazzle, Excellence. And by the definition, Mace isn't that impressive either.

 

Dooku butchers a large group of Kiffar guardians, bests Quinlan Vos effortlessly, bests Mace in Obsession (He defend shimself with NO PROBLEM while Mace is clearly trying to kill him), goes almost evenly with Yoda, commands enormous respect, is acknowledged as Mace's better by....Mace, his Makashi can break through Mace's Vaapad, knows Vaapad's weaknesses thanks to Bulq, bests Obi-wan twice and is aknowledged as a Jedi almost as strong as Yoda.

 

I'm still very undecided. I think because Dooku was considered the second best duelist in the Order after Yoda and above Mace, maybe him. But maybe not-the Anakin argument was compelling (if Anakin could beat him, Mace could too). Because I view Mace as at least as powerful as Obi-Wan, seeing as how he could confront the Emperor, and Yoda said Obi-Wan couldn't. And Obi-Wan could beat Anakin. and Anakin beat Dooku, almost easily. So Mace could probably-but then again...could Obi-wan beat Count Dooku? It almost seems like the Obi-Wan/Anakin/Dooku arrangement is like rock paper scissors. Also, one of the main reasons Anakin lost to Obi-wan was because his emotions got the best of him. The Mace/Emperor/Yoda arrangement also seems like rock paper scissors to me. The Emperor could beat Obi-Wan, we know that. Yoda could beat Dooku or Obi-Wan, but since Anakin doesn't have the personal attachment to Yoda, would he be less stupid and win? At that point I think ?Yoda would still win, because of the experience factor. Mace could probably beat Obi-Wan, but Dooku is less clear. Confused I am getting, in this jumble. I think partially it depends on the situation.

 

Lightsnake: if all you're saying is true, then you're probably right. I have not read those sources though.

 

just because A>B and C>A doesn't mean C>B...Obi-wan beat Ani afterall.
Anakin won against Dooku for a few reasons...Dooku took it easy on him at first because he was tricked by Palpatine and didn't expect the betrayal...and seriously, by ROTS, Anakin is momentously strong.

And Palp faked his loss to Mace, this is not inconcievable

 

Aparently not, Infernus. Stories have showed anyone can do it.

Which I pragmatically scoff at. You don't just lift your hand, and out it comes. It's a technique, like recipe. You must feel a certain emotion, mentally think a certain pattern, to produce and focus the outpour of energy.

Like landing safely from a 100m fall.

How do you do it? People often just say "she drew on the Force", and that's it. Perhaps you need to push against the rushing ground, do something to your legs to handle the impact, subtlely pull on your shoulders to ease the speed of descent.

 

well, first of all, it's a hotly debated open question as to whether or not Mace actually defeated Sidious. Sidious may have been faking to win Anakin's sympathy. i think he was faking to some extent, but that Anakin and Mace together would have made mincemeat of him.

that aside....

it's been noted that Dooku and Yoda are the only two Jedi in the Order during the prequel era who have beaten Mace in sparring sessions. however, i think it's safe to presume that the high-end lightsaber masters have sparred with each other multiple times to sharpen their skills, and i think that, unless it's explicitly stated differently elsewhere, the fact that Dooku has beaten Mace doesn't rule out the possibility that Mace has also beaten Dooku.

also, the last time they could have sparred together would have been around the time of the Battle of Naboo, because Dooku left the Order shortly thereafter. in the ten years of relative peace and the three years of the Clone Wars that followed, both parties are likely to have increased their skills significantly. Dooku certainly has, adding Sith skills to his already formidable style, but Mace seems to have spent a lot of that intervening time developing Vaapad. ultimately, the sparring record is somewhat inconclusive if we're looking at the two of them at peak of their skills.

the fact that Dooku avoids a duel with Mace on Boz Pity in Obsession is also inconclusive. while it's possible that he feared he couldn't defeat Mace, it's just as likely that he was looking at the larger tactical situation and concluded (correctly, i would think) that retreat was preferable to engaging in a protracted duel, even a winnable one.

it's worth noting that neither of them seem to have much in the way of serious competitors in this time period, save a tiny handful of the best of the best (Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin, basically). both of them are able to take down reasonably worthy adversaries like Ventress and Quinlan Vos without much trouble. Grievous chews through Jedi like they aren't even there (he takes on Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, K'kruhk, and Aayla Secura all at once without even breaking a sweat), but Mace (from what i understand, i haven't read LoE yet) beats him pretty handily on Coruscant. similarly, Sora Bulq is Mace's personal sparring partner, and Tholme is no slouch, and Dooku takes them both to school on Bakura just a few days after his grueling series of duels on Geonosis. and, well, obviously, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar are worth adversaries, and the fact that Mace is even able to survive Sidious' initial onslaught says something about his skills.

i think that at the beginning of the Clone Wars, the two of them are probably about equal, and that either could defeat or be defeated by the other, depending on circumstances and luck. i think they're both about a half-step below Yoda and Sidious, but that it's not out of the question that they could defeat Yoda or Sidious in the right situation. outside of the Big Two, Mace and Dooku have no serious equals at the time of the Battle of Geonosis.

however, by the end of the Clone Wars, i think Obi-Wan and Anakin have surpassed Mace and Dooku. i think it's safe to say that Dooku is roughly Mace's equal, and Anakin completely owns Dooku aboard the Invisible Hand. he takes both of his hands in one stroke, for Pete's sake. similarly, Obi-Wan may be the most consistently underrated and overlooked Jedi of his era. look at the people he's defeated: Darth Maul, General Grievous, Anakin/Vader.

 

The way i've always understood it, Dooku's lightsaber format (Makashi or whatever) is unstoppable when in prime form in a duel. It is based solely on dueling and swordsman ship whereas other forms specialize in other areas as well. EX: Obi-Wan used Form III, a very deflective and defensive form that Form II can just so happen to penetrate easily. Dooku was by no doubt a master of Form II, and its extremely difficult to beat by any other form, even mastery of it.

Does that make Mace a poor dueler? Absolutely not. His Vaapad is just as lethal, it just doesnt quite match up to Form II at its finest. Mace could probably kick butt better than any other Jedi except against something like that. ROTS says several times that Mace, Egan, Kit, and Saesee are four of the finest swordsmen the Order has ever produced (along with Yoda no doubt), as long as they have their guard up and don't get punked by the Emperor. I think Palps did lose intentionally, but I also think that Mace could've still beaten him. Vaapad is very strong, especially to a dark side person i'd imagine who wouldn't necessarily expect such ferocity from a Jedi. I'm sick of this "Mace sucks, Dooku owns" or "Dooku sucks, Mace rocks!" i keep seeing (not necessarily in this thread). Each had its power if different places and each could be unstoppable under seperate circumstances. Like someone said, just because A>B and C>A, C isnt > B necessarily (or whatever it was)

 

Excellence-don't underestimate Force lightning. It is a very rare and powerful ability. You have to be very powerful in the dark side to use it. Vader could have, though his arms were cut off.

hahahahahahaha.....ahem...no. Force Lightening certainly looks cool, but its a relatively simple power in terms of what the Dark Side is capable of. Anyone with some Force talent, who is sufficiently angry and who has enough of a brain to think "what would happen if I channeled all of these free-floating electrons in one direction?" is capable of Force lightening. With some practice and research, it can become second nature as well as very focused and powerful, like it was with Palpatine.

About Mace vs. Dooku: Mace is far too dependent upon Vaapad. He uses it like a crutch, or more poetically, like a four-year-old who has never been weaned off of his baby bottle. Dooku not only found out how to overcome this, but he became so adept at breaking Vaapad that he was able to teach it to others. If Mace were to go after Dooku, he'd fall into Vaapad and open himself up for the kill without even knowing it.

 

Has e_s showed up here yet?

No?

Well, "he will be...he will be..."

 

See KK there are other Dooku supporters in the hizzy...

 

I don't see how Mace could defeat Palpatine and lose to Dooku. Unless, of course, you believe that Sidious threw the fight, which, while quite possible, remains an assumption without too much evidence. Do you think Dooku is a better lightsaber fighter than Sidious? If you had asked me about Mace vs. Dooku before seeing Episode 3 I would have gone with Dooku, but after watching Mace defeat Palpatine (again, this isn't certain), I don't see how you can say he wouldn't win. Come on... he beat Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious! The most terrible and powerful Sith Lord of all time. If Palpatine was truly fighting his best, I'd say Dooku wouldn't have much of a chance.

 

Rendezvous implied Dooks was fearful of Ian. It was the terror of uncertainity, of how to show their relationship, that kept all three communication scenes sharp and short. But Rendezvous implied a lot of things, like being an actual book.

 

Agreed Darth_Seer, if Palps was going all out and Mace whooped him then, Dooku would have an Iceballs chance in hell.

Considering that I believe Palps took a dive. I think that Dooku's old school Makashi coupled with his knowledge of Vaapad would end up turning Mace into shish kabob.

 

Yes... I think the mere fact that Dooku remains a loyal apprentice indicates that Palpatine is far more powerful than he. You know how these power hungry Sith are: if Dooku was able to kill Palpatine he'd do it in a second. That he does Palpatine's bidding is enough tacit proof for a Sith that he is far weaker, and that Mace defeated Palpatine easily -- perhaps too easily -- makes the answer to this appear obvious. To me the answer is clear. If you think Palpatine fought his best, I'd have a very hard time believing Mace could be beaten by Dooku. Conversely, your argument is a lot stronger if you think Palpatine was faking it.

 

"hahahahahahaha.....ahem...no. Force Lightening certainly looks cool, but its a relatively simple power in terms of what the Dark Side is capable of. Anyone with some Force talent, who is sufficiently angry and who has enough of a brain to think "what would happen if I channeled all of these free-floating electrons in one direction?" is capable of Force lightening. With some practice and research, it can become second nature as well as very focused and powerful, like it was with Palpatine."

You ignorant, pompous fool. Just about everything you've written on these threads is sheer rubbish. Force lightning is a powerful force ability that is extremely difficult to conjure-only the best Sith Lords can do it. It's not as rare, definitely, as Darth Plagueis's ability or Darth Bane's ability to prevent a thought bomb from killing him, but it is indeed rare.

As for lightsnake-I agree totally. Just because B>A and C>A doesn't mean C>B. But what if (as I speculated above) there is a circular chain, like rock paper scissors, where say Dooku can beat Obi-Wan (it's possible, maybe even likely), Obi-Wan can beat Anakin, and Anakin can beat Dooku, based on their various weaknesses? Or how about Mace can beat the Emperor, the Emperor can beat Yoda, Yoda can beat Mace? Is Yoda that much more powerful than Mace? Perhaps. And the speculation on the Emperor intentionally losing the fight-perhaps also-but it doesn't seem that likely to me. More likely is the Emperor is more powerful yet made a mistake in the duel (yes, even really powerful and experienced people make mistakes) but then used that mistake to his advantage when Anakin arrived.

 

ummm... Force Lightning isn't rare at all...

C'Baoth, Luke, Jacen, Revan, Malak, Traya, etc., have all used it. Sorry just thought I'd point that out.

 

Jaina used it too against Kyp, who also knew how to use it back against her... So add those to the list. Indeed, it seems force lightning is a fairly common ability. And with the A, B, C thing... I think there is usually an explanation for potential loopholes. For example, it seems obvious why Obi-Wan might lose to Dooku but beat Anakin, his own apprentice. I just have a really difficult time believing Mace could defeat the greatest Sith Lord in history but lose to Dooku. It doesn't add up.