Maces Vaapad

Reason I am posting this in Lit is because I doubt anyone in the movie forums would know what Vaapad is, in Revenge of the Sith when Mace is fighting he seems... slow. Isn't Vaapad supposed to be crazy fast?


-The Scummy-

 

That's just what happens when older actors try doing their own stunts.

 

Vaapad is based off the sixth form, Juyo, of lightsaber fighting. Mace used it and later developed the seventh form of combat called Vaapad. This is the most challenging and demanding of all forms, Form VII requires extreme, intense focus, high levels of skill, and mastery of other forms. Vaapad borders on the edge of falling to the Dark Side, as it channels one's anger and darkness into the attack. Only Windu's mastery and concentration of the Light Side prevents him from succumbing, which is why Vaapad is rarely practiced and very dangerous. Mace made it what it is today so however he does it in ROTS is the way it is meant to be.

It is never said to be very quick, just very unpredictable...

 

It is never said to be very quick, just very unpredictable...

That's true, I never heard that it was a quick form.

 

How many arms can you see?

Vaapad is supposed to be fast; coming from the vaapad of Sarapin, the style borrows its moves from that multi-limbed predator, which makes lightning strikes at prey, overwhelming and confusing them to ensure a quick kill.

 

Where did you get this from. You're wrong. It comes from the sixth fighting form which Mace mastered and ultimatly created the seventh form, vaapad. He made it so however he does it is correct, right? Right!

 

I think we must take the connotation to be fast as "sudden" not as in "at high speeds." That's the best way I can reconcile the filsm and EU on this one. After all, none of mace's moves have been lightning quick. But he often wins his duels in some completely sudden, unexpected way that turns events in his favor (ex kicking Palpatine in the face. Who would've guessed?).

 

I guess I can accept that for the sake of both arguements.

 

Vaapad is based on Form VII, is supposed to be lightning fast and unpredictable.

And it seemed slow because Sam Jackson did his own stunts and is getting older.

Ray Park used a very similar form as Darth Maul in Ep. I and you should look to that for a better movie example of Form VII.

 

"How many arms can you see?"


He got that from Shatterpoint. That gives me the idea that it is a fast style. But maybe Sidious was just as fast making Mace seem slower than he actually was.

 

Windu only uses vaapad to fight so thats the way it is supposed to be. Maybe if GL wasn't as cheap, he could have thrown in so more extream stuff for Mace.

 

Form VI is the weakest, it has nothing to do with Vaapad or form VII, Juyo.

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

Dubbed the Way of the Vornskr, Form VII was an incomplete form for millennia. It was further developed by Jedi Master Mace Windu, who could complete it with his "Vaapad" fighting style. The most challenging and demanding of all forms, Form VII requires extreme, intense focus, high levels of skill, and mastery of other forms. Only three Jedi have ever mastered Vaapad fully: Mace Windu, Depa Billaba, and Sora Bulq, who instructed Quinlan Vos in a few of its basics. Sora Bulq helped Windu develop Vaapad, but he proved too weak to master the flow of the Light and Dark Sides, and fell to the Dark Side. In this way, Vaapad mastered him.

Intrepid, somewhat direct movements are used in combination with very advanced techniques involving Force-powered jumps and motions. Form VII does not appear as fancy as Form IV, but the technical details of it use very open movements resulting in a very unpredictable battle style.

Form VII demands the emotional and physical intensity of Form V, but it much more effectively controls it (if mastered). Form VII, when fully mastered, results in extraordinary power.

However, Vaapad borders on the edge of falling to the Dark Side, as it channels one's anger and darkness into the attack. Only Windu's mastery and concentration of the Light Side prevents him from succumbing, which is why Vaapad is rarely practiced and very dangerous. The two other known practitioners of Vaapad, Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba, both fell to the Dark Side of the Force.

Darth Maul used a variant of this form coupled with his knowledge of martial prowess.

EDIT: Damn Markups

 

"Vaapad is supposed to be fast; coming from the vaapad of Sarapin, the style borrows its moves from that multi-limbed predator, which makes lightning strikes at prey, overwhelming and confusing them to ensure a quick kill. "

This is from Shatterpoint, as was probably pointed out already (since I'm slow to login and reply...work after all).

After reading Shatterpoint, Mace seems hesitant to "slip" into Vaapad in the Jungle since he feels so surrounded by darkness. Since the forms walks the line of the Dark Side he seemed to only use it when necessary in order to prevent him slipping further into the Dark Side.

My theory and please someone tell me if Stover's novel addresses this, but I felt like Mace was slow in the movie because he was again hesitant because of the strong Dark Side pull from Palpatine. He felt he was winning the fight and didn't need to slip into Vaapad.

Any thoughts or corrections?

 

Why not just post the URL, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaapad , LordSilvertouch. Mace perfected the forms and used Form VI and channeled his anger and hate and created the rare Form VII. He used his knowledge of the other forms to help in the creation of vaapad, duh...

 

D'oh. Yeah, my post could also have been http://www.wikipedia.com/wiki/vaapad

I keep forgetting i can do that here.

 

You should update you signiture, LordSilvertouch.

 

It states in the Revenge of the Sith novel that Mace actually slips into Vaapad. Although that certainly contradicts what we see in the movie.

 

Thanks JM Luego.

So much for my idea. I guess I'll just chalk up the difference to how the film was edited.

JA

 

In Shatterpoint, Vaapad is described as less based around pure speed and more on... efficiency. The act of entering Vaapad requires you to let go of all concious thought except your intention- the Force actually fights through you, using your abilities to maximum potential. That doesn't mean it's always fast, though- often, against weaker opponents who have no way of blocking strikes, speed is part of this efficiency. Against a Sith Lord, however, the battle would be more focused on striking at just the right time to injure your opponent, because a flurry of quick strikes would leave you vulrenable to attack, especially against Sidious, who is ultimately faster, even without Vaapad.

 

Isn't Vaapad not even Form VII, but an extension of it? Form VII is Juyo, which isn't Vaapad, and Vaapad is Windu's taking of Juyo and improving it, correct?

 

Thanks. Some of the information in this thread was confusing me.

 

Mace perfected the forms and used Form VI and channeled his anger and hate and created the rare Form VII. He used his knowledge of the other forms to help in the creation of vaapad, duh...

Wrong. Vaapad has nothing to do with Form VI. Form VI is the weakest form of lightsaber combat. To prove this, Battle of Geonosis, every Jedi using Form VI dies. Vaapad is not Form VII but rather an extension. Form VII is actually called Juyo not Form VI. Form VII was not created by Mace, it was around centuries before he was even born. He and Sora Bulq just completed the form with its extension, Vaapad.

 

If you go by Shatterpoint, things are different though

(Palpatine) "Vaapad?"
(Yoda) "A predator of Sarapin. Also the nickname it is, given by students, for the seventh form of lightsaber combat."
(Palpatine) "I've always heard there are only six."
(Yoda) "Six there were, for generations of Jedi. The seventh..is not well known. A powerful form it is. Deadliest of all..But dangerous it is to its master, as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone to mastery has risen."
(Palp) "But if she's the only master and this style is so deadly what makes you think.."
(Mace) "She's not the only master, sir." He lifted his head to meet Palpatine's frown. "She is my only student to become a master."
(Palp) "Your only student.." Palpatine echoed.
(Mace) I didn't study Vaapad." Mace let his hands fall to his sides. "I created it."

Here Yoda says for generations there were 6, and that the 7th is not well known, also that "Vaapad" is the nickname given by students for the 7th form of lightsaber combat, and Mace confirms he created it, essentially meaning Mace created form 7. So if you go by Shatterpoint, Mace created form 7, also called Vaapad.

 

So:

Form I: Shii-Cho

Form II: Makashi

Form III: Soresu

Form IV: Ataru

Form V: Djem So (in KOTOR 2, Shien)

Form VI: Niman

Form VII: Juyo

Question 1: In the ROTS novelization, Stover uses the spelling "Ataro". The novelizations are ordinarily considered G-canon, but lately I've been reading that only material directly from the movie is G-canon, and the elements invented by the author are C-canon. So does this make Ataro the correct spelling, or is that an error?

Question 2: The wikipedia entry for "Lightsaber Combat" has more forms than just the seven I listed. It has a Form VIII, called Sokan, and states it is from Great Sith War era. It has a Form IX, called Shien (which is what Form V is called in KOTOR 2), and describes it as "Shien uniquely involves a Jedi holding the lightsaber horizontally. The Jedi pointed the end of the blade at the opponent; it was swung in a fast arc while the Jedi punched his or her saber-hand at his or her opposing combatant." It has a Form X called "Niman" which is the same name as Form VI, but explains that this is the use of two lightsabers. And it has Form 0, which is knowing when to use a lightsaber. Are these official (I'm pretty sure 0 is), and what sources are they from? Also, Darth Maul's entry in the NEGC and the Dark Forces D20 RPG entry for Boc (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050526a) both mention Jar'Kai as a dual fighting style, the Boc entry specifically mentioning his using it with lightsabers. I have heard it is from X-Wing Alliance, and in that source and TNEGC it is mentioned as being used with swords. Could this be considered another lightsaber form?

My guess would be all the forms in question 2 are actual forms, but the numbering is fanmade.

Edit: In response to LijoT's post, which I did not see until after I made mine:

Is Juyo mentioned anywhere besides KOTOR 2? If not, is it reasonable to conclude that there was a Form VII called Juyo back in the Old Sith War era that was lost, possibly due to the events that occurred in KOTOR 2?