Mandalorian Armour Discrepancies

Carried over from the Knights of the Old Republic #28 thread...

That's a one-time trick Exar Kun used, and the narration implies that he was only able to get through all that Mandalorian iron because the spirit of Freedon Nadd intervened in some way.

Right, because something that's "almost lightsaber-proof" is not going to be bothered much by blasters.

No, we have no evidence that they "evolved" in any significant manner with regards to their cutting power.

The "change" of which you speak consists of the power unit eventually becoming small enough to fit into the grip of a lightsaber rather than needing to be carried on the Jedi's belt, and there's nothing to suggest that the lightsabers of 4,000 years BBY are any less powerful than contemporay models, as I suspect we'll see in the upcoming Rebellion segment of Vector. Further, it's rather naïve to suppose that offensive weapons such as lightsabers would become more powerful over time but that defensive materials like Mandalorian iron would not also be strengthened consequently.

 

Considering that even Traviss' position has always been that the armour can resist lightsabers, I don't really see the complaint. And Charles is right that boosted ligthsaber power via force augmentation could get through it.

We also know that the purity of beskar is highly variable, since the Mando smiths are able to control how strong the armour is (the fighters for transport are less armoured than the home guard versions).

So, basically, it's a non-issue. Like any other alloy, the strength can cary depending on the properties involved, and there's bound to be thinner parts of the armour, and there's little doubt that mass producing armour will give you less time to make the good stuff.

There's so many variables that it becomes almost non-sensical to argue about it. Mando Iron strong and can resist glancing blows from a lightsaber, but it certainly doesn't eliminate the dangers of a lightsaber or even blasters considering Boba has what is supposed to be one of the best sets of beskar armour in a long time after Medrit makes it and he feels like he's being battered with a ramming rod when his armour takes a blaster hit.

Hit anything often and hard enough and you'll weaken and blow through it, or cut through it, and if there are impurities in the armour to begin with from mass-production, it gets even more likely.

In some ways, Traviss almost downgraded the armour, and introduced the idea of the iron as something that could be altered to change the tensile strength, so I don't see any serious problems in there being fluctuations in the quality and durability of the armour.

 

It boils down to the fact that I think that lightsabers should cut through Mandalorian Armor.

With difficulty, yes.

However, if Lightsabers can cut through DARTH VADER'S ARMOR then you're not going to be able to tell me with a straight face that Mandalorian grunts will be immune.

 

Again, we've only ever seen that sort of "Force augmentation" occur once, in a highly unusual set of circumstances.

Not at issue.

Which would seem to contradict A Practical Man, and Goran Beviin's shrugging off a direct hit to his torso armour with no ill effects other than hot air being blasted up into his unsealed helmet, not to mention Jango Fett's shrugging off a shot to his (duraplast?) helmet in Star Wars: Jango Fett/Zam Wessell, and Boba Fett's taking a deflected blast from his own EE-3 to the head while wearing his duraplast armour in Enemy of the Empire.

Basically, I think Karen's put herself at odds with previously established depictions of exactly how durable Mandalorian armour tends to be.

Again though, the problem is that the armour handcrafted for the use of the Mandalore himself is apparently only rated against "glancing blows" from lightsabers, but we've seen the mass-produced suits issued to the grunts of 4,000 years ago outperforming this.

Really? I couldn't tell.

What about Darth Vader's armour? It's hardly all that protective in comparison with other armours we've seen. In fact, isn't it more meant to keep him alive than to function as battle armour?

 

I've seen this before, what was Darth Vader's armour supposedly made from?

I completely agree that it's silly to think that lightsabers couldn't cut through the armour, especially with the Force backing the Jedi, and especially with the nature of the alloy itself. There's all sorts of purity levels to the armour, as evidenced by the Mando smiths being able to control how tough the armour is when building the fighters, and it has always been depicted as lightsaber resistant. It'll hold for a bit against a blow. The main advantage is that it's lite enough to make into armour plate, unlike a blast door or the like that can still hold out a lightsaber but that's due to thickness as well as strength.

Since it's stated all over the place that the armour is resistant, and even when training with beskar on Beviin doesn't trust them to go full out with even training blades, it's hardly surprising that lightsabers can cut through the armour, it's just harder.

It isn't even on the level of cortis for goodness sake, and in LEGACY we see that the IK all have cortis gauntlets.

The Mandos are proud of it and proud of their armour, but even they know it's not impegnetrable to lightsaber or sustained blaster fire, and it's stated over and over that it isn't in any number of sources.

 

Darth Vader's armor was made using Sith Alchemical techniques.

As a reminder, Luke Skywalker cut through the "indestructible" glove of Darth Vader.

With a lightsaber.

It's the hardest armor in the universe.

It's been indirectly referenced several times. However, in game mechanics, it's been a part of both Star Wars RPGs.

A lightsaber is supposed to be a focus for a Jedi's power.

 

What is silly is people thinking the Sith can make better armor than the Mando's. The Mando armor is their thing...that is what sets them apart. Lightsaber probably have been improved in 4k years but so has smithing techniques for beskar. If Mando armor weren't lightsaber resistant they wouldnt be the Jedi's #2 enemy, behind the Sith.

 

The Sith are alchemists.

It's their thing.

The Mandalorians are soldiers, its their thing.

Why would the Sith not have better armor than the Mandalorians? They're the weird magical scientists of the universe.

 

The point is moot, as far as Vader's glove is concerned, because it actually is a Mandalorian crushgaunt.

TC

 

No idea.

What about the "nature of the alloy"? If they can vary and control the level of toughness it doesn't make sense that beskar'gam intended for use against potentially lightsaber-wielding opponents is going to have problems with "impurities".

Would you mind running that by me again?

It isn't on the level of cortosis according to what, exactly?

Such as?

Where?

Except when it isn't, apparently. Would've been awfully useful against Vonduun crab armour, or against Grievous's Magna Guards and their phrikite electropoles, or against the bridge blast doors on the Saak'ak, or against Kar Vastor's ultrachrome shields, if a lightsaber could simply be used to bash through everything so long as you directed your Force energy into it, but to the best of my knowledge, we've never seen a Jedi not possessed by the Dark Side of the Force using his lightsaber as "a focus for his power".

Ever.

The Mandalorians would have better armour than the Sith because they're soldiers, and so devote their technical skills to their weapons and armour. The Sith are indeed the weird magical scientists of the universe, and so devote their skills and knowledge towards typical weird magical mad scientist things like Sithspawn.

And it's not impossible that the Mandalorian iron components did not protect his wrist, where the blade cut through.

 

Vader's armor isn't saber proof. It's probably saber resistant, but opted out on full coverage during his upgrades.

 

Wait didn't the hand get cut just behind the gauntlet? Where he had nothing but that flight suit looking thing. Plus we already saw his pauldron take a lightsaber hit and not get cut through at the end of ESB so maybe Vader did wear beskar - who knows?

 

Fett also takes a blaster bolt to the chest in "The Last One Standing" and gets knocked over, but he survives. Jango's men in Open Seasons, on the other hand, are defenseless against their own deflected blaster bolts, so even before he got a suit of real Mandalorian iron, Boba Fett's durasteel armor must have been some of the highest-grade stuff around if it could survive things the professional supercommandos' armor couldn't.

No, his hand got severed just behind the wrist, not halfway up his forearm; the glove was cut in half.

 

Another possibility is that they were using really, really powerful blasters, or that the deflected bolts managed to strike in the gaps between the armour plates on their vests.

[image=http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh293/Hospitaller_Knight/os3.jpg]

[image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/5/58/BobaFettMain2.jpg]

 

Kyle Katarn has no trouble cutting through Shadow Trooper Armour, which is made from cortosis.

Though cortosis is portrayed just an inconsistantly as mandalorian iron is.

From both a logical and a dramatic perspective, I think it's best that mandalorian iron, cortosis (of the non-deactivating type) and phrik should be penetratable with a well placed hit, reduce the damage from a wound that wouldn't be life threatening anyway and almost completely absorb what would otherwise just be a grazing wound.

 

Actually, the old lightsabers you refer to are seen in Great Hyperspace War, young Odan Urr and Naga Sadow era, a whole millennium before KOTOR. In Great Sith War, the lightsabers are more familiar, without the 'cable' and their design seems to change between GSW and Mandalorian Wars (TOTJ and KOTOR). There was probably a progress and a successful recovery in the Jedi Order after the GSW, so I wouldn't be surprised that they came up with better weapon technologies.

They are not the Jedi #2 enemies. There were when they were allied with the Sith In the Great Sith War and the New Sith War. Other than that, the Jedi did not have a quarrel against them. (Clones are not real Mando). And post OT, their enemy is Boba Fett, which is not a good representative of the whole nation (look at LOTF books).

In 4000 years, the Jedi could have developed better lightsabers. They had resources from the Republic on their disposal which would allow a good quality research. And if in KOTOR games, there are special crystals that which give extra cutting power and enable a more destructive effect, I guess that in a span of 4000 years they would have come up with something better.

As for Mandalorians, I'm sure that smithing techniques have approved significantly over time, but beskar is not that common. look at the humans; we've exhausted great amounts of mineral deposits on the Earth in, what, 10000 years. It's been 4000 years before KOTOR and the 'present' in GFFA, plus how many millennia would it take for the culture on Mandalore to develop and become hyperspace capable before that. And knowing them, they surely used a lot of metal throughout their history, being natural warriors and all. And in case they exported some of it to other planets (which they most probably did, like they do now in LOTF) over 4k years. And Mandalore is the only one planet with that ore.
So, beskar amounts are not great, so I guess Mandies would have used it only for special stuff. It was probably not mass produced for Dar'Manda, the recruits. And beskar is the only one that is supposed to repel lightsabers.
In conclusion, I think that there is nothing odd about lightsaber being able to pierce through the Mandalorian armor. There should be some difficulty, but it should not be impossible.

Also, only two things that can truly stop a lightsaber are cortosis and phrykite.

 

Actually, you misread my post. I in no way made any statement to the effect that the beltbox-powered lightsabers were the type were the sort seen during the Sith War. Rather, my point was that this is the only significant change in lightsaber design we've ever seen.

They are when they want to be. I believe that's the point that was made.

In 4,000 years, they could have found that there was nothing that could be improved.

It is, however, consistent, though expensive. About the only time it's suggested that they haven't had beskar to work with was during the Imperial occupation, and then of course they discovered a new vein of Mandalorian iron some decades afterward.

Not necessarily. We still don't know exactly what Neo-Crusader armour is made of.

The issue here is not whether the armour can be defeated by a lightsaber. Rather, it's how difficult it is to actually do so.

I don't believe either of those have ever been depicted as being completely impervious to lightsabers.

 

How so? If there are crystals that are able to enhance the weapon's power, then there must be techniques of modifying other crystals and synthesizing new ones that have the same ability.
4000 years is a too vast amount of time for no progress to be made, especially in a technologically advanced environment such as GFFA.

Cortosis, with right thickness, completely deflects the lightsaber. And as for phrikite, it was nicely demonstrated in KOTOR #13 that Camper's invention stops a pretty hard lightsaber strike. Otherwise Zayne wouldn't have any hands left.

 

You mean, they are when goaded on or backed by the Sith. Which is pretty much the only time they were ever a threat.

I love how "lightsaber resistant" metal has kind of seeped throughout Star Wars, first it was just cortosis, then phirk, and now even the bucketheads are a match for the energy blade.

 

To what degree? A different type of crystal may enhance your blade's cutting power a bit, but not on the order of "slash through hardened armour plating like it wasn't there".

Technological innovation cuts both ways in an arms race.

So does Mandalorian iron for that matter.

Camper rather specifically states that they'll stop glancing blows but won't help against two-handed cutting strikes.

Yes, and...?

Mandalorian iron was first mentioned in 1994. Phrik alloy was introduced in 1995. Cortosis first appeared in 1997.

Might I suggest that the next time you feel inclined to go about reflexively spewing vitriol at the Mandalorians over nothing in particular, you get the relevant facts in order first?

 

Except when it isn't, apparently. Would've been awfully useful against Vonduun crab armour, or against Grievous's Magna Guards and their phrikite electropoles, or against the bridge blast doors on the Saak'ak, or against Kar Vastor's ultrachrome shields, if a lightsaber could simply be used to bash through everything so long as you directed your Force energy into it, but to the best of my knowledge, we've never seen a Jedi not possessed by the Dark Side of the Force using his lightsaber as "a focus for his power".

Except for every time a Jedi uses a lightsaber.

It's what they train in.

 

Not in that way.

 

Blah. Yes, it was poorly phrased, but that's no reason to misrepresent the clear intent of what was being said. The Jedi do not very often use the Force to boost the cutting power of their lightsabers. It seems like an odd trick.

 

How would you know?

 

Well, I'm pretty sure we know that the typical Jedi channel the Force into their blade so as to make it feel like an extension of their own body (hence the lack of chopping-their-own-limbs-off)... and if you've got Force energy there already. Well, why couldn't they enhance the cutting power?

Still, I don't think that they can enhance their lightsabers by THAT great amount otherwise, well... yeah.

I'm also pretty certain that they upgraded to lightsabers in the first place so they wouldn't have to waste time "Force Forging" metal swords so as to make them stronger and could place their Forcentration elsewhere.