Saga Master / Apprentice symbolism

I'd posted some observations on Qui-Gon's place in the saga in another thread, but on further thought there is more to it so I figured it could warrant it's own thread. This is a mix of stuff from old threads and some new perspective if anyone is interested in this stuff. SW can be quite complex, at least to me.


First, to copy and edit from the "Qui-Gon given Obi-Wan's role" thread. Bear with me if you have already read this part.

I love the implication of Qui-Gon watching over Anakin from the netherworld mirroring Obi-Wan and Luke in the OT. Watching the PT first it isn't specifically stated, just Qui-Gon crying "no!" during the Tusken slaughter, and Yoda dropping his name at the end of ROTS. The Yoda dialogue implies Qui-Gon is now his Master and will teach them how to merge with the force (an inversion of the ability the Sith seek, ironically attained by letting go rather than focusing on one's self). Watched in order, when you get to the OT Obi-Wan's death now makes more sense, and is far more literally presented than the perhaps subtler concept of Qui-Gon's death in the prequels. It really feels like a wink to audience; Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda never explicitly stating in the films why they can retain their identity. Furthermore, the first words we hear spoken by Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon from beyond kind of mirror - Luke sees Vader kill Obi-Wan and angrily shoots down some stormtroopers before "Run Luke!", Anakin at the same age witnesses Shmi's death and angrily kills Tuskens, starting down the dark path as Qui-Gon powerlessly shouts out in horror. I think its obvious to most viewers Luke and Anakin have contrasting paralleling destinies, and there is a lot to it that I won't directly go into on this thread.
One quite complex mirror I want to mention however - Luke confronts the Vader apparition on Dagobah, a vision of the man he thinks killed both his father and Obi-Wan. He beheads him, and (of course) sees his own face. Anakin loses his mother, and kills the village he sees as responsible. Luke has Yoda and Obi-Wan present, both physically and in spirit respectively, and learns from his mistake. Anakin however is basically alone, the same two mentors unable to help him, only commenting from afar - "Young Skywalker is in pain!" and "Tatooine? What in blazes is he doing there! ... I do hope nothing has happened to him." Anakin never learns what Luke does (until the end of ROTJ) perhaps largely due to circumstance.

Anyway, others have noted at times that Qui-Gon's absence after TPM is quite meaningful in that it shifts the tone of ep2 and ep3. With his death, the "family" of Qui-Gon, Padme, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Jar Jar are basically split up. This contrast and (arguable) inversion between TPM and the rest of the films makes it almost impossible to get the same meaning you would if Obi found Anakin as originally written. It seems the way the movies are structured Obi-Wan was intentionally written to be not the right mentor for Anakin. Qui-Gon's inclusion means there is symbolically a loss of Anakin's potential when Qui-Gon dies.
There are many matches between Qui-Gon (TPM), Palpatine (generally), and (ANH) Obi-Wan. AOTC Obi-Wan; ie Obi-Wan teaching Anakin, is the odd one out. Palpatine in ROTS swoops in and fills a void left by Qui-Gon's absence, and then things come full-circle when Obi-Wan successfully starts Luke on the Jedi path in ANH.

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Qui-Gon was written based off the Obi-Wan of the OT. Less obviously however; he has a lot in common with Palpatine (they mirror each other) as the wise mentors Anakin arguably needed. And while Qui-Gon's character has a lot in common with Obi-Wan's characterisation in the OT (as well as Yoda's), he starkly contrasts/inverts Obi-Wan's mentoring of Anakin in the prequels. I'll try and demonstrate why I find the character special in these ways.


Firstly, Qui-Gon and (OT era) Obi-Wan.

There are some interesting similarities between the two that from a real-world perspective are mainly because Qui-Gon was based off Obi-Wan, but in-universe Obi-Wan is now reaching the level of wisdom his old Master believed he would one day have, eg mind-tricks and manipulating the truth is a habit of both.

Some examples...
-
Qui-Gon: "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."

Obi-Wan: "In my experience there is no such thing as luck."

-
Qui-Gon: "Even if you succeed, it's a hard life."
Anakin: "But it's what I want, it's what I've always dreamed of doing!"

Luke: "I want to come with you to Alderaan. There's nothing here for me now. I wan to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like my father."

-
Anakin's last conversation with Qui-Gon before Qui-Gon is killed:

Anakin: "Hey, wait for me!"
Qui-Gon: "No Anakin, stay right where you are."
Anakin: "But I..."
Qui-Gon: "Stay in that cockpit!"

Luke's last conversation with Obi-Wan before Obi-Wan is killed:
Luke: "I wanna go with you!"
Obi-Wan: "No Luke, stay and watch over the droids."
Luke: "But he can..."
Obi-Wan: They must be delivered safely or more systems will suffer Alderaan's fate... The force will be with you, always."

Maul kills Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan screams "nooo!"
Vader kills Obi-Wan, Luke screams "No!"

-
Qui-Gon: "I will do what I must, Obi-Wan!"

Obi-Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I shall do what I must!"

-
TPM
Qui-Gon: You still have much to learn my young apprentice."
ROTS (deleted scene)
Obi-Wan: "Anakin, you still have much to learn. That will never hold!" ... "Alright, I still have much to learn. Lets go."

-
TPM
Anakin: "What are we going to do about it?"
Qui-Gon: "We shall be patient."
AOTC
Obi-Wan: "Patience!"
ROTS
Anakin: "I say patience."
Obi-Wan: "Patience?"
ESB
Obi-Wan: "He will learn patience."

-
Before I move on, there is a Yoda parallel in TPM's opening conversation.
TPM
Obi-Wan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future!"
Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living force young Padawan."
ESB
"This one a long time have I watched. All his life as he looked away... to the future, to the horizon, never his mind on where he was. What he was doing!"

Kind of a cool nod to fans I think, considering Yoda becomes Qui-Gon's "apprentice" at the end of ROTS.
Plus, note the wording of Yoda telling Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon has returned from the netherworld...
"An old friend. Your old Master."
ESB
"Through the force, things you will see. The past, the future. Old friends long gone..."

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Qui-Gon inverting PT Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan's methods differ from Qui-Gon's:

TPM:
Qui-Gon (handing Anakin a helmet): "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts."

AOTC, however:
Obi-Wan: "Patience. Use the force. Think."
This is such a direct contradiction I don't think it is coincidence.

Palpatine tells Anakin in AOTC to rely on his feelings, then (Obi-Wan) tells Luke in ANH:
Obi-Wan (handing Luke the blast-shielded helmet): "This time I want you to let go your conscious self and act on instinct." ... "Stretch out with your feelings!"

It is interesting that Obi-Wan has grown from teaching Anakin and trains Luke more successfully.

-
TPM:
Qui-Gon: "Obi-Wan is ready."
Obi-Wan: "I am ready to face the trials." ...
Qui-Gon: "He has much to learn of the living force, but he is capable."
AOTC, however:
Obi-Wan: "I am concerned for my Padawan. He is not ready to be given this assignment on his own yet."


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Qui-Gon mirroring Palpatine.






TPM
Qui-Gon: "Greed can be a powerful ally."

Shmi: "He knows nothing of greed."

Palpatine: "The Senate is full of greedy squabbling delegates."

ROTS
Yoda: "Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."

All lines related to how Palpatine manipulates Anakin and the Republic.


-
Qui-Gon teaches Anakin about symbiosis with the midichlorians in TPM.
Palpatine teaches Anakin about selfishly manipulating midis in ROTS.
Obi-Wan doesn't teach Anakin anything related to midichlorians onscreen.


-
Qui-Gon: "Always remember. Your focus determines your reality. Stay close to me and you'll be safe."

Anakin's life is symbolically in Qui-Gon's hands.
"Anakin, drop!"



Notice directly after Qui-Gon's death, Palpatine swoops in and claims Anakin...
Palpatine: We are indebted to you for your bravery Obi-Wan. And you, young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest!"

This is a very ironic moment as Obi-Wan has just killed Palpatine's apprentice and begun training Palpatine's eventual one.

Also, Obi-Wan and Palpatine will spend the next thirteen years invisibly competing for Anakin's soul.
A neat example of this, in ROTS, when Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Palpatine are dangling in the elevator shaft, Anakin is symbolically saving the life of both mentors. You could say he is carrying both Orders and is the key to which will be the victor.


Palpatine mirroring and inverting OT era Obi-Wan.

Anakin joins a Sith Master (Sidious) / Luke joins a Jedi Master (Obi-Wan).
-eg, Palpatine: "Your fulfilling your destiny Anakin." (by joining him)/ Obi-Wan: "Your destiny lies along a different path from mine." (By letting him go)
-eg, Palpatine: "Of course you should, but you're not entirely sure of their intentions." / Obi-Wan: "You -must do what you think is right, of course."
-eg, Palpatine: "Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the force." / Obi-Wan: "Learn about the force, Luke!"
-eg, Sidious puts a healing hand on Vader after Obi-Wan dismembers Vader and, broken-hearted, abandons him / Obi-Wan puts a healing hand on Luke when the tuskens knock him out, the beginning of a second chance at training a Skywalker.


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Anakin mirroring Qui-Gon.

The two main Jedi characters of TPM are Qui-Gon and Obi-wan (apprentice).
The two main Jedi characters of the next two films are Anakin and Obi-Wan (Master).




The Jedi are assigned to protect Padme in both TPM and AOTC.






Obi-Wan takes the Council's side in both TPM and ROTS - regarding his Master's defiance of the Council about Anakin becoming a Jedi (TPM), and regarding his apprentice's defiance of the Council about Anakin becoming a Master (ROTS).
Also, oddly, Qui-Gon is the only Master not on the Council where Anakin is inversely the only Council member that's not a Master.

The apprentices later apologise to their old friend, and the Master's say similar compliments to them, Obi-Wan reversing roles.




These "farewells" are significant because:
TPM - Maul will kill Qui-Gon
ROTS - Anakin will become Vader
You kind of feel sorry for Obi-Wan, always in the middle of all this stuff.






Qui-Gon meditating (trapped away from a Sith and Obi-Wan)

Anakin suggest patience (trapped with a Sith and Obi-Wan)




TPM - Obi-Wan symbolically becomes his own man by taking his fallen Master's saber and killing Maul:

ROTS - Obi-Wan takes his fallen apprentice's saber after defeating him, to be passed onto the next generation:



Both characters (Qui-Gon (TPM) and Anakin (ROTJ)) die in a "sons" arms (Obi-Wan and Luke) and are cremated as they watch on.



I may add to this later

 

Something significant I missed, before I leave...

Anakin starts to mimic Palpatine because of his influence over Anakin.

TPM (albeit before Palpatine's influence, but a similarity in philosophy) -
Anakin: "Mom you say the biggest problem in this universe is nobody helps each other."

Palpatine: "There is no interest in the common good."

AOTC -
Padme: "The trouble is, the people don't always agree."
Anakin: "Then they should be made to."

ROTS -
-
Palpatine: "When the Jedi learn what has transpired here they will kill us. Along with all the Senators."
Anakin: "I agree. The Council's next move will be against the Senate."

-
Palpatine: "When my apprentice Lord Vader arrives, he will take care of you."
...
Anakin: "The Seperatists have been taken care of My Master."

-
Palpatine: "You have restored peace, justice and security to the galaxy!"
...
Anakin: "I have brought peace, freedom and security to my new Empire!"


Kinda cool.

 

Been watching the PT and thought I would expand on this.


Dooku's death is symbolic as Anakin's first pre-meditated murder. While the parallel to Luke's refusal to kill Vader in ROTJ is fairly obvious, less noticeable is the implied bloodline reference in both movies - ie, Dooku trained Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan trained Anakin. So where Luke has the opportunity to kill his father, Anakin kills a symbolic "grandfather", his master's master's master. Notice Anakin/Vader also kills Obi-Wan and Palpatine eventually, after saving their lives on several occasions in the PT.
Additionally, something quite intriguing is Dooku's comment that Qui-Gon (Dooku's former apprentice) might have joined the Seperatists, because he shares Dooku's disillusionment with the Republic. Obi-Wan is less open-minded than Qui-Gon, and it highlights interesting "shades" of characterisation for all three characters. Qui-Gon likely wouldn't have joined, but Dooku isn't that far off that Qui-Gon wouldn't have continued to go along with the Council and the Republic if he knew it was led by Sidious. The fartherly influence theme is reoccurring in Star Wars.



Luke and Anakin's parentage and mentorship also invert.
Anakin is born either of the force, or as a reaction to Sith meddling with midichlorians. He has a natural mother, Shmi, who selflessly lets Anakin go and allows Anakin to start on his Jedi path. Watto on the other hand would rather Anakin stayed a slave, and I've noticed a similarity in Owen holding Luke back and Watto doing the same for his father. "Don't get me wrongo, I have great faith in the boy." and "Harvest is when I need you the most!" among other lines.
Qui-Gon and Shmi, however, offer Anakin freedom, and make up two metaphorical parental figures.
Anakin, after leaving Shmi, (and after Qui-Gon's death in TPM) returns in the next film, and is unable to save her life, having in his mind been held back from doing so by the Jedi. The Tusken massacre that results starts him on his Sith path.
Inversely, when Luke's foster family is killed by the Empire, he is freed of his obligation, and can now (like his father) join Obi-Wan and start his path to Jedihood. The movies are of course very cleverly set up to have these similarities that go in the opposite direction for the two Skywalkers (but that is hardly the only reason I find it interesting).
Also of note here, Padme metaphorically replaces Shmi, and Palpatine will manipulate Anakin into severing his bonds with everyone except the Sith.



Luke and Palpatine will end up in a battle for Anakin's soul in ROTJ, that Obi-Wan found himself losing to Palpatine in the PT. Luke arguably becomes his own Master (as well as morally superior to the Sith) when he redeems Anakin.
Palpatine really outplays the Jedi at the "plotting" conflict in the PT, particularly ROTS. Interestingly, Obi-Wan and Palpatine both tell Anakin to be suspicious - "Be careful of your friend Palpatine." and "Be careful of the Jedi Anakin." but Anakin ends up listening to the Sith.
A further re-enforcement of the subject of this thread; Obi-Wan and Yoda are far closer to Luke than they were with Anakin in most of the PT. When Luke fails his test at the Dagobah cave, beheading the Vader apparition which he then sees is actually himself, Yoda and Obi-Wan's ghost are right there to give their wisdom, to give the moment context. When Anakin beheads Dooku however, he has Palpatine right there telling him he "did well". Also, Obi-Wan is absent at crucial moments in the PT - he is unconscious during Dooku's end, and on another planet when Anakin kills the Tuskens, plus off-world when Anakin eventually turns in ROTS. Lastly, notice (in ROTS) Palpatine's behaviour after Obi-Wan regains consciousness - he completely shuts up! He doesn't act as suspiciously, and Obi-Wan never sees what he like when Anakin and Palpatine are alone.



Some more similarities in Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan.
- In the TPM script Obi-Wan fries his saber in the Naboo swamp and gets mildly scolded by Qui-Gon. It's something he has often lectured Anakin by the end of second film.
- Obi-Wan kills Maul with Qui-Gon's saber when he calms himself and surprises Maul from the brink of defeat, and is soon knighted arguably because of this. Similar to "One thing remains. You must face Darth Vader again. Only then, a Jedi will you be." I always loved the metaphor of Obi-Wan killing Maul with a Jedi saber contrasting Anakin killing Dooku with his blue saber and Dooku's own Sith saber.
- While Obi-Wan starts the trilogy sceptical of Anakin, they have grown very close by ROTS. Obi-Wan believes the same as Qui-Gon, that Anakin is the chosen one, and "He won't let me down. He never has." He tries to do as good a job as Qui-Gon or Yoda, but can't.
eg, TPM
Qui-Gon: "Your focus determines your reality."
AOTC
Obi-Wan: "You're focusing on the negative. Be mindful of your thoughts. She was pleased to see us."
- I find it warm that Anakin still affectionately calls Obi-Wan "Master" at the start of ROTS. If only they knew what was coming...

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Another training contrast...
TPM:
Qui-Gon: "He is headstrong, and he still has much to learn of the living force, but he is capable. There is little more he will learn from me."
AOTC:
Obi-Wan: "I'm concerned for my Padawan. He is not yet ready to be given this assignment on his own. His abilities have made him, well, arrogant."

I know it sounds harsh to Obi-Wan, but it seems intentional he isn't the right mentor for Anakin, Obi-Wan actually notes his own failure on several occasions. When Qui-Gon (the father) is killed Obi-Wan carries the torch for him, but Obi-Wan and Anakin unfortunately better fit the role of brothers, and Qui-Gon's absence is capitalised on by Sidious. A quick example of their rivalry - "Besides, your senses are not yet that attuned." "And yours are?" "Possibly."
The mentor-student dynamic in AOTC is different to the other five films, and while they have grown closer by ROTS, I think this tension is part of the arc of the story. It seems significant to me.

Obi-Wan takes responsibility after they lose Qui-Gon - "Qui-Gon believed in him." ... Yoda: "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that you do not." While there is a paradox and self-fulfilling prophecy related to whether the Jedi should actually have trained Anakin, it is significant that Yoda is IMO humbled by Qui-Gon at the end of ROTS.



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- A Qui-Gon / Anakin lightsaber mirror...
In TPM Qui-Gon cuts a circle in a door, in AOTC Anakin contrastingly cuts a hole in the hut Shmi is being held in, in ROTS Anakin cuts a hole in the roof of an elevator.


- Anakin's loophole - "Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love... central to a Jedi's life. So you might say we are encouraged to love." - seems to me a bit like he is channelling Qui-Gon.


- Qui-Gon force heals Jar Jar to calm him, Sidious force heals Anakin to soothe him after being burnt on Mustafar. Contrasting.


- TPM
Qui-Gon: "Anakin will be a Jedi, I promise you." ... and (Padme): "Senator Palpatine fears the Federation mean to destroy me." Qui-Gon: "I promise you, I won't allow that to happen."
AOTC
Anakin: "We will find out who is trying to kill you Padme, I promise you!"


- And a TPM/ANH link;
Qui-Gon: My guess is, it was after the Queen."
Anakin: "What are we gonna do about it?"

Luke: "She's the one in the message, we gotta help her!"



- A neat TPM/ROTJ opposite regarding Anakin and Luke, while I'm here;
Qui-Gon: "I sense a great disturbance in the force."
Obi-Wan: "I feel it also Master."

Vader: "I have felt him."
Palpatine: "Strange that I have not."

 

Nice thread HevyDevy.

Thanks for posting all of these.

 

I don't know if I posted this on this thread already, but...

There is a themed "Master" for each episode of the current films;

TPM - Qui-Gon Jinn: Wisely teaches Obi-Wan and starts Anakin on his Jedi path.

AOTC - Obi-Wan Kenobi: Anakin's Master, yet it has started to slide towards Palpatine.

ROTS - Palpatine: Sidious takes over, takes Anakin's soul, Obi-Wan loses an apprentice.

ANH - Obi-Wan Kenobi: Second chance at training a Skywalker, Luke is the same age as Anakin in AOTC (19).

ESB - Yoda: 'Nuff said. Imparts arguably the wisest teachings in the saga in this film.

ROTJ - Luke Skywalker: Contest between Luke and Palpatine for Anakin's soul, Luke is the victor and emerges as his own Master (or arguably Luke and Anakin, representative of the Jedi's return).


Edit - I should also add that each "Master" sort of symbolises the tone of each episode for me.

 

If anyone who had the patience to read this through could comment I would be grateful

 

I plan to, all your cool threads are in my bookmarks.

 

Bump?

 

Just reviving this thread. Would appreciate anyone giving it a read.

 

Anyone have their own spin on the Anakin/Qui-Gon mirroring? They are identical shots.

 

I've always wondered about something. Is this why the lightsaber duel in "The Phantom Menace" is called the Duel of Fates?

I get the feeling that the teachings that Yoda imparted to Luke in "Empire Strikes Back" are the same ones that Qui-Gon tried to teach to Obi-Wan, and eventually taught to both the latter and Yoda.

 

I think it is. It is really where the events of the rest of the movies are set in motion.

Yeah, there is a lot of linked dialogue throughout the films to suggest this. It makes watching all six films as one story quite rewarding, and makes any claim that the prequels add no depth less valid. There are some quite drawn out character progressions since the six movies were finished.

 

Would like more people to read this thread.

 

I wouldn't call it a contradiction. Qui-Gon is not saying 'never think' nor is Obi-Wan saying 'never use your instincts'. Both are giving the right council for each situation. Anakin should not rush into the club, he should stop and think. For the podrace, Anakin should trust his instincts instead of thinking too much about what to do and hesitate.

 

You make a fair point, but the wording just seems too coincidental to me.


For example, "Concentrate on the moment" - Qui-Gon says similar to Obi-Wan at the start of the movie...
"Don't centre on your anxieties Obi-Wan, keep your concentration here and now where it belongs."
"But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future..."
"But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living force young Padawan."

He is telling Obi-Wan the same thing, and Obi-Wan is far from about to race a pod.

Plus, in the AOTC club, Obi-Wan sounds to be speaking quite by-the-book, giving Anakin fairly safe advice. "Use the force" to a kid that has spent 10 years training to become a Jedi? When he says it to Luke, Luke was only just beginning his training, and it was very fitting and important advice then, as he otherwise wouldn't have destroyed the Deathstar.

Obi-Wan only really seems to teach like Qui-Gon in ANH. Like telling Luke to "let go (his) conscious self and act on instinct".

And the whole ending of ROTJ seems to promote a strong message of feeling triumphing over physical and the mind.

 

I'm not saying Qui-Gon's advice to Anakin is strictly for those who are going to podrace. I'm saying their advice is appropriate for their respective situation (and certainly many others).

And in that scene, he's not saying that Obi-Wan shouldn't be mindful of the future. He's saying to be mindful of the future, just not at the expense of the moment.

He's obviously reminding Anakin to use the Force. Likewise, when he says 'think', he's not implying Anakin never thought before. He's just reminding.

Because that's the appropriate advice for that situation.

They are all tied together. Each one has it's advantages and drawbacks. It's all about balance.

 

I suppose, was half-joking. But I was demonstrating that Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's training philosophies are certainly at odds with each other.

Qui-Gon seems pretty consistent with his core beliefs. He seems stubborn about this;
QUI-GON: "He is the chosen one! You must see it."
YODA: "Clouded this boys future is."
Regardless of whether training Anakin was a good idea or not, the Jedi are still collectively blind in ROTS. They look inwards, and while this isn't necessarily a bad thing on it's own, they fail to see what is going on all around them until it is too late.

ROTS script...
"I have failed you, Anakin. I was never able to teach you to think."

But anyway, "Use the force" sounded silly on that occasion.


About Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's different perspective...
- "It's something elsewhere, elusive." Obi-Wan already "has a bad feeling" because of course Sidious is working behind the scenes. Qui-Gon disagrees.
- "Why do I get the feeling you will be the death of me." Oblivious premonition.
Obi-Wan is better at looking to the future than Qui-Gon. Qui-Gon feels Anakin is the chosen one, but entirely does not read where this would lead. He just senses the force has bigger plans than they can comprehend and goes with it. Obi-Wan is far more logical, and it isn't until the OT that Obi-Wan is similar to Qui-Gon in leaving things to the force's will, or for example by being stubborn that Luke must be trained, regardless of what any (hypothetical) Order might tell him.

True.
But only Luke and his father's compassion save the galaxy. What would have happened if Luke had killed Vader like Obi-Wan asked? Luke is almost blindly compassionate. Nothing about his decision to spare Vader is cerebral IMO. It's borderline illogical to do this to Palpatine's face.
The Emperor even states as he is trying to torture/kill Luke "Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand." (Awesome moment btw)
If Luke had been clearly thinking about where rejecting Palpatine would lead, he would never have redeemed Vader in the first place.

 

Qui-Gon is more erratic, but he's not teaching anything that the Jedi disagree with.

They fail to see because the dark side is clouding them, not because of their philosophy. They aren't looking inwards, they are just, to paraphrase Lucas, walking in a fog.

I disagree. It was the right advice.

Small correction. He doesn't disagree, he just doesn't sense anything.

He actually agrees with Yoda and the Council, just like they agree with Qui-Gon about the possibility of him being the Chosen One. Anakin's future is clouded and therefore uncertain. Obi-Wan jumps to the conclusion that he's dangerous because of that, which Qui-Gon disagrees with.

There's no Order whatsoever in the OT. Obi-Wan and Yoda are just taking their only* choice.

*sure, there's Leia.

They are all tied together. Each one has it's advantages and drawbacks. It's all about balance.[/quote]

Compassion in and on itself would do nothing if there was nothing left of Anakin in Vader. It wasn't compassion that destroyed Sidious. In fact, compassion would be pointless against Sidious. Compassion destroyed Vader. And only then did Anakin destroy Sidious.

 

Subjective. Hard to say either way IMO. I would say yes, they don't disagree, but none teach like him themselves.

I think it's both. The growing dark side aura muddies their vision, yeah.

An example of their flawed philosophy is their arrogance.
YODA: A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.

While this is admittedly a sign Yoda is being a little humble, it ironically comes true for all four characters the conversation involves (the three are talking about Anakin).

Mace tries to confront Palpatine with three Jedi, they die, and Mace is killed attempting to kill Palpatine by himself.
Obi-Wan believes he can train Anakin successfully, and of course Anakin turns.
Yoda goes to confront the new Emperor, seemingly confident in his own impending victory, fights to a stalemate (at best) and goes into exile.

Finally, Anakin stubbornly believes he can do everything himself. He doesn't want Obi-Wan's help with his problems with Padme, he wants to single-handedly prevent her death at any cost but fails, ends up wanting to be supreme ruler of the galaxy, and tries to make a difficult jump at the end of his fight with Obi-Wan instead of backing off to fight another day.


Additionally, the close minded rigidity in their attitude leaves an ever adapting Sith Order to take full advantage. Their ways may have worked before, but they have been around for thousands of years.

You don't think it is a little stale to say this to a 10-year trained Padawan? When is a trained Jedi ever not "using the force"? It is in the back of their consciousness in everything they do.

Fair enough.

He agrees with them? How?

There's no Order whatsoever in the OT. Obi-Wan and Yoda are just taking their only* choice.

*sure, there's Leia.[/quote]

I know there is no Order, hence the "hypothetical".
Yes it is their only choice, but would you disagree that the will of the force is more relevant to their actions than in the PT?

True.

But I see some correlation between "Feel, don't think." and "Your thoughts betray you." Like Luke's stressed thoughts revealing the existence of a sister to Vader. Of course if Anakin had thought more he wouldn't have turned...

 

Don't want to take a stab at my last post Alexrd ?

 

I didn't get a notification of your reply.

Arrogance is not part of their philosophy.

Even if all Jedi were arrogant (which isn't true), it wasn't their arrogance that made the order fall, nor is it something they preach.

Is that arrogance?

'Of course'? Where's the correlation between Obi-Wan's tutelage and Anakin's fall?

Again, how is that arrogance? Yoda confronts Sidious because it's the last shot he has. More than that, it's his duty as a Jedi, guardian of peace and justice in the galaxy. Confidence and arrogance are not the same thing.

What attitude on the Jedi's part did the Sith take advantage of? And where's the close mindedness?

You're taking things too literal. Like I said before, he also says 'think'. Are you implying that Anakin never thought before? He wasn't thinking or using the Force in that moment. He was rushing into the club not being aware of his surroundings.

On the decision of Anakin not being trained:

Yoda: "Clouded this boy's future is."

Later:

Qui-Gon: "His fate is uncertain, but he's not dangerous."

I would say they are equally relevant.

 

Yes, pretty poorly worded on my part actually.

I didn't mean all Jedi are arrogant, just that Yoda admits it can affect the best of them.

Attempting to kill Palpatine when there is a prophecy stating literally only Anakin can do this? Deciding he knows what is best for the entire Jedi Order (and the galaxy) in making this decision single-handedly? And he seems pretty confident Palpatine is going down from the moment he enters the office.

Sorry, the "of course" was more referencing that we all as an audience know that Anakin turns.

As for Obi-Wan's tutelage, he feels a lot for Anakin, but there is a fair bit in the PT to suggest he isn't perfectly suited to train Anakin.
The decision for Obi-Wan to train Anakin is quite a sudden decision, Qui-Gon wants to train Anakin but dies, and Obi-Wan can't say no to his dying Master. Obi-Wan is only knighted moments before officially taking Anakin as an apprentice after all. He fully believes in the task he undertakes, but is inexperienced.

OBI-WAN: I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must.
YODA: Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that you do not. Agree with you the Council does... your apprentice Skywalker will be.
...
OBI-WAN: I thought I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

Trivially, Obi-Wan promises both his dying mentor Qui-Gon, and young Anakin, that Anakin will be a Jedi. He fulfills his end of the bargain, yet never truly completes Anakin's training.

Furthermore, notice with Qui-Gon's passing both Obi-Wan and Palpatine begin to influence Anakin.

PALPATINE: We are indebted to you for your bravery Master Kenobi. And you young Skywalker... we will watch your career with great interest.

Obi-Wan never truly had Anakin to himself, Palpatine slowly corrupting Anakin behind the scenes. Obi-Wan is almost oblivious to this until late in ROTS, for example congratulating Anakin on killing Dooku (not knowing the details), and relaying to Anakin the Council's assignment involving Anakin spying on Palpatine, despite his own concerns.


In AOTC Obi-Wan's tutelage of Anakin can be seen pretty subjectively. Personally I think Obi-Wan's by-the-books approach which clashes with Anakin's more passionate nature is really a fault of both characters.
For example...

OBI-WAN: We are here to protect you, not to start an investigation.
ANAKIN: We will find out who is trying to kill you Padme, I promise you.
OBI-WAN: We will not exceed our mandate...
ANAKIN: I meant it in the interest of protecting her, Master, of course.
OBI-WAN: We are not going through this exercise again, Anakin. And you will pay attention to my lead.
ANAKIN: Why?
OBI-WAN: What??!!
ANAKIN: Why else do you think we were assigned to her, if not to find the killer? Protection is a job for local security... not Jedi. It's overkill, Master. Investigation is implied in our mandate.
OBI-WAN: We will do exactly as the Council has instructed. And you will learn your place, young one.

Anakin is showing little humility here in assuming the Jedi are wasted on a smaller task, but interestingly he turns out to be entirely right when they are assigned to find those responsible. Obi-Wan is sticking to the books, where Anakin is perhaps looking at it from a broader angle, hence the incompatibility. And for arguments sake, imagine if Qui-Gon had improvised like Anakin here... doesn't seem at all as bratty does it?

Look at this brotherly rivalry soon after...

OBI-WAN You're using her as bait??
ANAKIN It was her idea... No harm will come to her. I can sense everything going on in that room. Trust me.
OBI-WAN It's too risky... and your senses aren't that attuned, young apprentice.
ANAKIN And yours are?
OBI-WAN Possibly.

Can you imagine another Master/Apprentice relationship in the saga holding this seemingly out of place "brotherly" fighting? Think about it... Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan, Sidious/Maul, Sidious/Dooku, Sidious/Vader, Obi-Wan/Luke, Yoda/Luke. All these apprentices rarely questioned their Master's wisdom, if at all. It's out of step with the whole nature of the Master/Padawan relationship as we see it.

Hmm. I found both Mace's "The oppression of the Sith will never return! You have lost." and Yoda's "At an end your rule is. And not short enough it was." pretty arrogant considering Sidious defeats them both.


And Yoda's (potential) arrogance is mirrored at the end of ROTJ...

SIDIOUS: Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda.
...
LUKE: Your overconfidence is your weakness.

(Plus in both films Sidious taunts Yoda/Luke on their supposed "lack of vision" and blasts them with lightning. Only; while Luke indeed didn't see Palpatine's attempt on his life coming, it is the Emperor who is truly blind this time.)

They weren't ready to fight the Sith on their own "front" as Yoda realises on defeat in the ROTS novelisation.
Palpatine's plotting just outclasses them.
Self-promotion, but I analysed a bunch of examples relevant to this here.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I find meaning in the fact Obi-Wan is training more like Qui-Gon in ANH.
"This time I want you to let go your conscious self and act on instinct." ... "Your eyes can deceive you don't trust them." (Changelings, Sith Lords appearing as kindly politicians) ... "Stretch out with your feelings!"

Yes, he agrees on this point, but it seems like a loophole to just essentially disagree with them to me.

Point conceded.

 

I know. I'm saying that even if all Jedi were arrogant, their Order wasn't destroyed because of that. We do get a few examples of their arrogance throughout the movies, but none of those instances contributed to their downfall.

A prophecy that, in their opinion at that time, could have been misread.

But isn't Sidious' destruction the best decision for the galaxy? It would save it from over 20 years of tyranny.

Where?

He's experienced enough to become a Jedi Knight.

"Obi-Wan is ready."

"Confer on you the level of Jedi Knight, the Council does."

And Knights can take Padawans.

That's his personal guilt speaking. We, as the audience, know that it wasn't his training that made him fall. Obi-Wan managed to train him to knighthood.

It's only after Qui-Gon's passing that Palpatine gets to meet Anakin and Obi-Wan gets to train him.

We don't know how it works, but I don't believe Padawans are with their Masters every single minute. I'm sure they can have their own free time. Palpatine just exploited Anakin's.

Just like Obi-Wan clashed with Qui-Gon. But that's part of it.

And yet thanks to Obi-Wan's (or in this case, the Council's) instructions, they are able to find/track the killer. Had Anakin done what he think they should have done, they would hardly find anything.

In TPM, Obi-Wan spends the whole time questioning his Master. He's more formal/respectful about it, but then again, that's Obi-Wan.

I'd say that's more confidence than arrogance. Arrogance is "Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millenia." and "Impossible, the Jedi would be aware of it.".

It's all the same, there's no difference:

Yoda to the younglings:

"Reach out. Sense the Force around you. Use your feelings you must."

What the Jedi teach in the PT and in the OT doesn't change.

Qui-Gon knows the risk but his belief that Anakin is the Chosen One gives him the confidence to overlook the fact of his clouded future.

 

I've been thinking about this topic sort of recently myself. I think an important note that doesn't necessarily "register" with people is that at no point during the movies (until perhaps the last scene of ROTJ) is Anakin ever in position of "master" - in fact, you could argue he's never at any point truly a 'free' person. He goes from slave, to Obi-Wan's student, to Palpatine's student, he is always subordinate.

 

I think, for example, stubbornly refusing to believe the Sith had returned is an implied part of their downfall. Think of Tarkin...

TPM
KI-ADI MUNDI: Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millennia!
ANH
TARKIN: The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, is all that is left of their religion.

ANH
TARKIN: Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!


Or one of many ROTS moments (if you haven't, I would be happy if you read the analysis I linked in the post above) that show the Jedi helping bring about their own demise...

PALPTINE: I would worry about the collective wisdom of the Council if they didn't select you for this assignment.
...
ANAKIN: The Chancellor has requested... that I lead the campaign.
MACE: The Council will make up it's own decision who is to go. Not the the Chancellor.

I know Palpatine is just blowing smoke up Anakin's ass, but do you not see the irony that in their pride they are making the mistake of sending away Obi-Wan (who could have helped Anakin if he was on Coruscant) almost just to spite Palpatine? And to add to the irony, Palpatine doesn't even want Anakin to go in the first place.

Agreed, but "could of been misread" shouldn't void it for Mace, Mace has no authority to decide the prophecy is meaningless. He was just angry in the heat of the moment. Yes, Palpatine needed to go, but Mace only decided to kill him on a whim after his first two arrest attempts failed. Remember, both Anakin and Mace thought Palpatine was defenseless when Mace attempted the death strike. I'm not surprised Mace was fed up with Palpatine for the first failed arrest attempts, but there was a third opportunity now, where he actually could have taken Palpatine peacefully. Palpatine is pushing him just enough to get the predicted reaction, giving Palpatine a great chance to pin (essentially) killing a Jedi Master on Anakin.

Of course it is. But this is partially just a rationalisation on Mace's part, giving him an excuse to kill him.

- The implication that Qui-Gon's death is symbolically the beginning of the end. To me, anyway.

- Obi-Wan's admitted frustration with Anakin. Qui-Gon would understand Anakin better than Obi-Wan, as much as Obi-Wan tried.

- The fact Anakin was no ordinary Padawan, and most Masters wouldn't be suited, let alone someone as new to it as Obi-Wan.

QUI-GON: He is headstrong, and has much to learn of the living force, but he is capable.

Ready to be a Jedi, not necessarily to train the chosen one.

- An example of advice Anakin can't use...

ANAKIN: I don't sleep well anymore.
OBI-WAN: Because of your mother?
ANAKIN: I don't know why I keep dreaming about her.
OBI-WAN: Dreams pass in time.

This would be great advice for someone else. But Anakin's dark dreams can't just pass, they are premonitions of things that are destined to happen. If the dreams went away at all before Shmi or Padme were gone, the advice would apply more.


- Some obliviousness on Obi-Wan's part, completely unintended from Obi-Wan nevertheless...

OBI-WAN: That's Anakin's tracking signal alright, but it's coming from Tatooine! What in blazes is he doing there? I told him to stay on Naboo. ... I do hope that nothing has happened to him.
The reason Anakin is on Tatooine could be pretty easily guessed by Obi-Wan, albeit without specific details. And it is unintentionally insensitive to the fact Anakin has just lost his mother and killed a whole tribe of Tuskens.

ANAKIN: I sense Count Dooku.
OBI-WAN: I sense a trap.
ANAKIN: Next move?
OBI-WAN: Spring the trap!
Intended comically, but with an underlying darkness in that their cockiness indicates they aren't looking at the big picture.

OBI-WAN: You rescued me from the buzzdroids, killed Count Dooku, and you rescued the Chancellor carrying me unconscious on your back.
ANAKIN: All because of your traning.
OBI-WAN: Anakin, lets be fair, today you were the hero, and you deserve your glorious day with the politicians.
A warm moment, but neither seem to realise Anakin killing Dooku has significantly furthered his slide to the dark side.

I don't disagree that Obi-Wan was ready to be Knight, but that seems a little oversimplified to assume this means he is right to train the chosen one.

I disagree, it was a contributing factor.

So you don't see any symbolism in Qui-Gon disappearing and Palpatine swooping in to begin an invisible fight with Obi-Wan for Anakin's soul?

I didn't mean literally. I meant he never truly had Anakin completely on the right path. He is essentially fighting a losing battle with Palpatine and the darkside. Yes he trained Anakin to knighthood, but Anakin was never truly there IMO (not saying that was just Anakin's training however).

I agree with that. But Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon resolved their disagreement before Qui-Gon died. Anakin never truly learns this lesson until the end of ROTJ.

Hard to say when you don't know what they would have done in the alternate scenario.

Good point. I was actually thinking about that example when I posted that, and posted it anyway based on the logic that with Obi-Wan it isn't really rivalry, he isn't trying to be bigger than Qui-Gon. He just disagrees with his father-figure, then eventually apologises. Anakin's similar apology in ROTS is depressingly short-lived. But besides Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan, look at every Sith partnership. They may be plotting to kill each other, but the apprentices are actually pretty submissive to their Master's face. And Luke, while a bit whiny when first meeting Yoda, respectfully listens to everything Yoda and Obi-Wan tell him.

But Obi-Wan's refusal to believe Dooku about Sidious controlling the Senate does contribute to the end of the Jedi.

I respectfully disagree.

We don't see much of Qui-Gon's disagreements with the Council, but it is implied...

OBI-WAN: Don't go against the Council, not again!