Melida/Daan

Reading LuvEwan fic The Broken Cadence Rolls caused me to remember a couple of questions that I had after reading the canon version a while back.

What should have Qui-Gon done instead of leaving Obi-Wan there? It seems that everyone is in agreement that he shouldn't have left him on Melida/Daan, but I haven't seen any suggestions on what he could have done instead. Forcing Obi-Wan to leave doesn't appear to be a worthwhile option, since he's not a slave - he's free to leave the Jedi if he chooses.

Could the Young have won the war without Obi-Wan's interference? That seems likely, since the loss of the starfighter didn't make that much difference. Furthermore, Nield's and Cerasi's remarkable leadership skills had already laid the bulk of the groundwork for the Young's victory over the Elders.

Opinions, anyone?

 

Musing Hard questions

Easier one first. Could the Young have won the war without Obi-Wan's interference? They won the battle but were going to lose the war. Once they had won over the Elders, they immediately began to quarrel among themselves. The Elders were making some of the Young betray their ideals (Marwan? what was his name?) and it would have likely reverted back to the way it was with fighting among all the factions if Cerasi hadn't been killed and Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon interfere.

Really hard question: What should have Qui-Gon done instead of leaving Obi-Wan there? Personally, I believe that Qui-Gon had a duty to make Obi-Wan come back and face the Council. If at that time, he still felt that he had to help the Young, he could have left in good faith. However, I also believe that Qui-Gon misread Obi's intentions. I don't think that Obi-Wan really wanted to leave the Jedi but that Qui-Gon's insistance in coming with him forced his hand. If he had been a bit more level-headed (heck both of them), he would have seen that it was not a good idea to remain there. Things escalated and Obi-Wan drew on his Master (never a good thing). But Qui-Gon could have easily disarmed him and made him go back.

In a way, Qui-Gon paid Obi a compliment in allowing a boy to make a man's decision.

 

He could have stayed the lanky ****** ******, i mean who leaves a 13 year old on a war torn planet i'll tell you who *look at line two* but seriously why didn't he stay and help ?

 

Um, I don't know about this fic, but in the original JA series wasn't someone seriously injured that Qui-Gon had to get back to Coruscant or something?

Dunno it's been quite a while since I read the book.

 

Hmm interesting dilemma. Yes, I beieve it was Qui's beloved Tahl that had been injured and it was the ship in which Obi-Wan wanted to use that Qui left in.

I have to admit it was a strange decision to leave Obi-Wan there. I would have thought he should have been bound and dragged back to the Temple, he was still a child Jedi or not. Certainly showed his rash impulsivenes.. Obi-Wan of course.

How would an older Obi-Wan have thought in the same scenario...??? Return a fellow Jedi for medical treatment or stay??

 

Yeah, Tahl, was messed up and then because Obi-Wan decided to say screw the order she couldn't get on the transport making her blind.

 

Tahl ended up blind even when Qui-Gon got her back to the Temple, so I don't really see that as the important factor. I mean, yes, she was injured, so Qui-Gon couldn't let Obi-Wan take the ship. But I agree with whoever said it (EDIT: diane), that Qui-Gon really forced Obi-Wan's hand. I don't think Obi-Wan wanted to leave the Order - he was just trying to help a group of people his age (and that, I think, was a big factor, that they were his age). As much as he loved them, he still watned to be a Jedi.

But he also acted rashly. Later on, he's much more attentive to his duty as a Jedi first. And he pulled his lightsaber on his master - a big No No! Still, I don't think it would've killed Qui-Gon to make a call to the Temple and ask them to send in another team to at least assess the situation.

 

Well, I have to wonder if Obi-Wan didn't actually make things worse.

He and Qui-Gon was there to negotiate a peace between the Melida and the Daan, and were on their way to achieving that, until the Young set off the explosions and played off one side against the other. Obi-Wan, who was supposed to be settling peace between the INITIAL warring sides sided with the third, undeclared party.

Qui-Gon had no choice but to leave him there. It was not the job of the Jedi to take sides, and he called OW on it. OW decided to go with "his people" (his words) and fight their war, and abandon the Jedi and the initial mission of peace. Qui-Gon, realizing that the Young didn't care about negotiating peace, did what he was SUPPOSED to do, and returned to the Temple with Tahl.

I've never been able to figure out why he decided to take Obi-Wan back.

As to being "only" thirteen, I think GFFA has different standards from ours. If a 14-year-old girl can be elected queen, and not a figurehead, and if she and a group of OTHER 14-year-olds can plan and fight in a battle against enemy invaders, then it seems odd that a thirteen year old trained in combat techniques and diplomatic negotiation protocols from a young age is somehow not accountable for his actions because he's "only a kid."

 

But I think Naboo groomed their political leaders from the very beginning. The Jedi did that as well, but it seems like the initiates were very sheltered, while on Naboo, it was just that they had known peace for so long. One thing I remember from the first JA book (and really liking *GASP*) was that while Obi-Wan was being strangled by the Hutt, he realised that there would be no Yoda to call off the fight. That was a very brutal way to learn it, I think. And even though Qui-Gon was going to Bandomeer as well, I think it's surprising that the Jedi didn't at least provide someone to go along with Obi-Wan to make sure he got there safely.

I think the Young had good intentions, but they just let things get way out of control. You could say that they had to take a lot of responsibility for their ages, just like young Jedi. But that's neither here nor there.

Obi-Wan made a hasty decision, and it was a bad one - although I don't really think that was in his character, especially when he was so desperate to be someone's apprentice. But maybe that was the point - desperation leads to bad decisions. I'm not saying he was completely blame-free, or that is actions can be condoned, but I think a punishment as harsh as not being let back into the Order is too much.

EDIT: Ohhhh, I know I had something else I wanted to say, but I forgot what it was. Something about Qui-Gon being a rebel and Obi-Wan also wanting to be seen as a rebel in order to be noticed by Qui-Gon...

 

dianethx: I don't think that Qui-Gon misread Obi-Wan's intentions. He knew that Obi-Wan wanted to help the Young win the war, but how can someone who says he doesn't care that he betrayed his Master's trust and broke the rules remain a Jedi? He was already being too deeply influenced by the Young, who refused to listen to the Elders or Qui-Gon, for that matter.

Healer_Leona: Wouldn't force have undermined the tenuous relationship they had at that point? If Qui-Gon had dragged Obi-Wan off Melida/Daan, Obi-Wan would probably have been resentful and sullen and even less likely to listen to reason than he already was. You know, that might be a different take on the usual Melida/Daan plot bunny - Obi-Wan leaving as ordered instead of staying there.

JadeSolo: Actually, I think Obi-Wan helped force Qui-Gon's hand. The battle that prompted Qui-Gon to leave with Tahl was triggered by Obi-Wan's first, unauthorized use of the starfighter at the behest of the Young. That occurred just when Qui-Gon managed to get both the Melida and the Daan Elders to agree to negotiate with the Young instead of fighting them - something Obi-Wan would have known if he hadn't sneaked off with the starfighter.

 

I got the impression that Jinn's decision to leave his young charge behind was heavily influenced by the fact that the Jedi in trouble was the woman he happened to love. I think if it had been anyone else, he would have taken a bit more time to deal with the situation differently. As it was, he was too wrapped up in his concern for her. I always though that a master's apprentice was supposed to be their main focus. Jinn displays this same disregard for Obi-Wan once again down the road. Not surprisingly its once again because of Tahl.

Yikes! Lost my train of thought. I think Qui-Gon had a responsibility to get Obi-Wan back to the Temple and try to reason with him. Yes it could have caused hard feelings if he forced the kid, but leaving caused strain on the relationship anyway. I'm not saying Obi-Wan was right, far from it! He was certainly wrong in my opinion for the choices he made. My beef with Qui-Gon was the fact that he was the adult and seasoned Jedi, he never should have left his apprentice behind.

* runs for cover from the rabid Jinn fans*

 

OE I happen to agree with you but Jude Watson wrote it that way. I would not have! The events might have been very similar but not the intent. I think JW had a Tahl fixation. An apprentice should be the Master's first priority - even above his own life. I suppose, though, that the mission would come before everything else, even the life of an apprentice.

Obviously, I'm going to have to read the Melida/Daan books again.... It's been a while.

I would love to see someone write a vignette where Obi-Wan does get dragged back to the Temple instead of getting left behind. No, not me.

 

Diane you've agreed with me twice today! The sky must be falling. I think we can chalk Melida/Daan up to one of those plot holes we've been discussing elsewhere.

 

LOL, I honestly don't remember a lot of the details of the battle, so if I re-read the books, I might have a different opinion. I tend to skip over the non-Xanatos/non-Garen parts.

I, too, think there was some sort of Tahl obsession, but that's a whole other topic of annoyance...

 

Oooh Diane you should write that Come on you know you want to I've been lurking here on the discussion and very much enjoying everybody's different thoughts on the matter. Will post mine after I dig my copies of the JA books up after our big move this week.

 

Forgive any wayward thoughts or those that have already been said. It's been a long, long day.

An apprentice should be the Master's first priority - even above his own life.

With that I have to agree. I was always under the assumption that a Master and a Padawan took a pledge to protect each other's lives with their own. Qui-Gon, although he may have been a rouge, should have taken that responsibility to heart. I don't want to raag on Watson so much, because she did write that series, but she had Qui-Gon contradict himself, too. He thinks (in some book, can't remember), how awestriking it is to be responsible for another's life and how he came to enjoy it. Well, Qui-Gon, I just have to say that you threw that concept out of the window.

Moving on...

I also think it was, in part, Qui-Gon's responsibility to take Obi-Wan to the Temple. He had a responsibility to look out after Obi-Wan, and that he did not do. Children are young, and are hasty to act. Qui-Gon should have looked at that, and realized that he probably could have talked Obi-Wan out of it. I think he could have, in all honestly. Obi-Wan needed to get off that planet, away from the situation, and really take a look at how things would turn out without him.

Diane- The Young dude that revolted was named Mawat. I also recall reading somewhere (book one, I think) about how Obi-Wan wanted to be seen as a rouge. Really nice emotion.

Again, sorry for the waywordness. Long, looong day.

-Krystal

 

hmm, just my thoughts here, and I might be wrong because I haven't read JA in a long while and they're buried somewhere I don't want to go digging them up.

Basically, Tahl's life was in immediate danger, or at least she was seriously injured, and Obi-Wan wasn't. Qui-Gon had to choose one. What if Qui-Gon had stayed and Tahl had died? I want to see a fic where that happens and then Obi-Wan feels bad. Who's gonna write me that?

Weren't Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan sent to see what had happened to Tahl? Wasn't that their mission? Tahl's mission was to make the peace. The mission is primary, padawans secondary, though often I know we all write it slightly different, Master's own life down from there. Of course Qui-Gon wanted to help, but like he said, they weren't there to interfere. If Obi-Wan had gone with him, I'm sure they would have gone right back as soon as Tahl was safe. And Qui-Gon did go as soon as Obi-Wan asked for help.

Anyway, I disregard 90% of those books. To me, they're just kinda lame. They are children's books, and I'm not a child, so I basically have my own version in my head. Might someday get to writing it down.

 

Weren't Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan sent to see what had happened to Tahl? Wasn't that their mission? Tahl's mission was to make the peace. The mission is primary, padawans secondary, though often I know we all write it slightly different, Master's own life down from there. Of course Qui-Gon wanted to help, but like he said, they weren't there to interfere. If Obi-Wan had gone with him, I'm sure they would have gone right back as soon as Tahl was safe. And Qui-Gon did go as soon as Obi-Wan asked for help.

I agree with AthenaLeigh. Their mission was to rescue Tahl. I was rather surprised that Obi-Wan was willing to endanger her life in order to use their ship. Of course, to Obi-Wan, he would be saving lives as well by helping the Young.

Although I don't think Obi-Wan's the only one to carry blame. If I remember correctly, at one point Qui-Gon says that he didn't realize how much Obi-Wan was being affected by the plight of the Young, and that he should have been more attentive to Obi-Wan. But he then ends up leaving Obi-Wan behind. I do not think he should have done so. If Tahl was in such serious condition, he should have rescued her, then gone back for Obi-Wan and dealt with him then.

Also, I don't think Qui-Gon acutally knew Tahl before they met on Melida/Daan. I thought he fell in love with her later on?

 

Also, I don't think Qui-Gon acutally knew Tahl before they met on Melida/Daan. I thought he fell in love with her later on?

I could be way off base, I'm old you know, but I think Tahl and Qui went way back to the creche. At least they were close when they were very young. And yes their mission was to rescue her initially but this is Jinn we're talking about here kids. How many times has he overstepped his orders when he felt very strongly about something? That's why he was considered a rogue. You can't tell me the well being of his teenage apprentice doesn't rank way up the chart.

 

Wow, what a discussion!

obi_ew & dianethx:

My beef with Qui-Gon was the fact that he was the adult and seasoned Jedi, he never should have left his apprentice behind.

An apprentice should be the Master's first priority - even above his own life.

Does this mean you both believe Qui-Gon should have forced Obi-Wan to leave when reason didn't work? Qui-Gon already tried to reason with all the sides involved in the conflict and work out a peaceful solution before leaving, but the Young wouldn't listen to him at all and Obi-Wan made things worse. It's possible that the Jedi would have been taken hostage again (that's what the Melida Elders tried to do), and with Tahl already badly hurt, she might have died. That would have probably ruined the relationship between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan beyond repair, as I believe she played an important role in bringing them back together again.

It seems as though the Young were using blackmail to get the Jedi involved on their side by appealing to Obi-Wan and disregarding Qui-Gon. They did it before, when they used the Jedi's need to rescue Tahl as part of their strategy to manipulate both sides of the Elders. By getting Obi-Wan to come along on a raid he had no business going on and using the starfighter without permission, they're playing Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon against each other.

As for Qui-Gon overstepping his orders when he felt strongly about something...well, he certainly sympathized with the Young, but I think he also knew that a lasting peace couldn't be achieved unless all sides agreed, not one side winning and dictating terms. The Young might have embraced both Melida and Daan, unlike the Elders, but on the other hand, they were age-biased - they wanted to fight even when the Elders were willing to back down because they didn't want to fight their own children.

There's also that issue he has with betrayal. First Xanatos, now Obi-Wan. Different reasons, but similar scenarios. He couldn't bring himself to kill Xanatos, so I doubt that he would have used force on Obi-Wan. Xanatos and Obi-Wan both chose to leave the Jedi after breaking their oaths to Qui-Gon. Does the Master's obligation to the Apprentice still exist under those circumstances?

KrystalBlaze: Qui-Gon should have looked at that, and realized that he probably could have talked Obi-Wan out of it. I think he could have, in all honestly. Obi-Wan needed to get off that planet, away from the situation, and really take a look at how things would turn out without him. I think he did try to reason with Obi-Wan before the confrontation at the starfighter, telling him that he should step back and reflect, but Obi-Wan said he didn't need to do that - he was convinced that he did the right thing.

AthenaLeigh: I tend to agree with your perspective on Melida/Daan. And it does seem that a lot of the negative attitude towards Qui-Gon is the result of poor writing.

Happy_Hobbit_Padawan: But he then ends up leaving Obi-Wan behind. I do not think he should have done so. If Tahl was in such serious condition, he should have rescued her, then gone back for Obi-Wan and dealt with him then. That sounds a bit contradictory to me, saying that Qui-Gon shouldn't have left him behind and then advocating rescuing Tahl first and coming back for him later.

 

Xanatos and Obi-Wan both chose to leave the Jedi after breaking their oaths to Qui-Gon. Does the Master's obligation to the Apprentice still exist under those circumstances?

I think it depends all on the age of the apprentice. Despite the truth of what Mistress_Renata said, I still think at the age of 13 you can't make such a decision. He was torn by his emotions and in addition to that Obi-Wan was always insecure of his place among the Jedi. But finally with these children who had a real cause, he found a place where he belonged. I don't think it's similar to what Xanatos did. Xan was old enough to decide what to do. I can certainly understand that Qui-Gon was hurt, but he should be able to look at the whole situation logically and see that it is not wise to leave a child, who could have another future, on a war-torn planet.

 

Does this mean you both believe Qui-Gon should have forced Obi-Wan to leave when reason didn't work?

Yup! Even if he had to bind and gag the kid. Obi never should have been left behind.

 

The mission is primary, padawans secondary, though often I know we all write it slightly different, Master's own life down from there.

First of all, if the mission comes first, over the life of the apprentice, and then over the life of the master, then why the mission to save Tahl? Why the mission to save any Jedi on an assignment gone horribly awry? The Jedi are not cold and unfeeling. Despite the way they treat initiates not chosen by a master (packing them off the AgriCorps - UGH don't even get me started on that), they do take care of their own. So, Qui-Gon can rescue Tahl but not his emotionally overcome padawan? Or is it a question of free will, that Tahl wanted to be rescued, and Obi-Wan wanted (or thought he wanted) to stay with the Young?

Xanatos and Obi-Wan both chose to leave the Jedi after breaking their oaths to Qui-Gon. Does the Master's obligation to the Apprentice still exist under those circumstances?

If both of Qui-Gon's apprentices end up leaving the Order, makes you wonder what he's doing wrong. Actually, the circumstances between Xan and Obi-Wan's defections aren't entirely different. Xan was manipulated by his father and bombarded with stories of wealth and power. Obi-Wan was somewhat manipulated by the Young and the feeling of belonging, the idea that he had a place and was doing good - and that he was loved. We don't see a lot of that from Qui-Gon before. Maybe Obi-Wan felt that here are people who appreciate what he can offer them. And for a while, they did.

With Xan, on the other hand, Qui-Gon cut down his father and expected the poor kid to come along. So maybe forcing Obi-Wan to come along wouldn't have been such a good idea, but then again, Qui-Gon wasn't exactly cutting down the Young. He should've grabbed his apprentice and made a call to the Temple, requesting another team to help out with the treaty.

And yes, Qui-Gon and Tahl knew each other from before. They were best buds in the creche. I can't remember correctly, wasn't there something about Tahl being one of Yoda's favorite Jedi or students? Aha! Favoritism! It's all Yoda's fault!

How many times has he overstepped his orders when he felt very strongly about something? That's why he was considered a rogue. You can't tell me the well being of his teenage apprentice doesn't rank way up the chart.

In JA #1, Obi-Wan tries to be a rebel to get Qui-Gon's attention. And it works, IMO. What if Obi-Wan still has that mindset, i.e. that it's okay to be a rebel? And if Qui-Gon were such the rebel that he or authors or whoever claim he is, I think he would've dropped Tahl off at the Temple and raced back to get Obi-Wan. But instead, he doesn't even try to patch things up even a little with Obi-Wan. He's the bigger man - literally. The wise master. He tries to forget both his apprentices after they betray him (or so he thinks, he's not completely faultless). But that's not going to work, and it's only when Cerasi dies that he starts thinking, "Hmmmm, maybe I should bring the kid home." Some master, hmph.

But problems like that I attribute to plotholes and inconsistencies in characterisation that JW seems to just looooove.

edits: quotes

 

I'm going to reread that book again and get back to you all. I tried skimming it this morning and I think some of my assumptions may be wrong. And gasp I might change my mind. But I need to think about it a little more....

 

ok, that's better, don't know how I got in Cyrillic....

Of course, if Tahl hadn't been hurt, say simply captured, I think Qui-Gon (the rogue) would have stayed, against orders, and the three of them would have worked for peace.