Saga Midichlorians and Missing Body Parts

Maybe this has been mentioned already, but if the reason for Darth Vader's diminished powers (at least in relation to Palpatine's), is because of his missing limbs, and the corresponding loss of midichlorians. Why then is Yoda so powerful? Wouldn't he have fewer midichlorians, and therefore a weaker connection to the force, simply because of his size?

 

Force potential is measured by midichlorians per cell. So each cell has x number of midichlorians. Yoda was the benchmark to which Anakin was measured against. All we know is even Yoda's count per cell wasn't as high as Anakin's. We can infer then that Yoda has a higher count per cell than everyone else, to the point that even with his small stature he has the greatest potential to be able to manipulate the force. Anakin is considered a vergence because he has more midichlorians per cell than Yoda. Presumably Anakin has less overall midichlorians once he loses his limbs, but he still would measure the same potential since he would still have the same number bonded with each individual cell.

The science of it all has yet to be fully explained. Is it total number of midichlorians, or concentration of midichlorians per cell that makes one have more potential to manipulate the force? Does concentration of midichlorians even matter for anybody to be able to actually be able to manipulate the force?

 

Wouldn't there still be fewer cells in someone who's only 2ft tall? And what happened to the midichlorians that were in Anakin's severed limbs? Did they die, or were they simply re-absorbed by the force?

 

It's the concentration of midi-chlorians that determines one's talent for using the Force. Everyone has the ability to manipulate it, but those with a high midi-chlorian count can reach greater heights. If they put in the work.

Vader's diminished power has nothing to do with the concentration of midi-chlorians in his cells, as that doesn't change just because he loses limbs. It has to do with how his injuries affect him personally. He doesn't just lose limbs; he loses the ability to live and breathe without mechanical help. His mobility is impaired and, according to Lucas, he can't generate Force lightning because that requires real arms and hands.

You also have to consider that he's emotionally broken. This weakens his spirit and affects his whole being. He's a mere shadow of his former self. Still powerful, but not nearly as powerful as he could have been.

 

No, not necessarily. And it's not the number of cells, but the concentration per cell.

Having an high concentration only hints at one's potential in the ways of the Force, since the more midi-chlorians one has, the easier it is to tap into it. Vader's potential after his injuries was diminished. No matter how much knowledge and training he gets, he will never be as powerful as he would be had he not been injured.

 

Hmmm, it seems a bit odd that so many of Anakin's force saturated cells were in his arms and legs. I'd think the greatest concentration would be in his brain, as the mind seems to be the key to controlling the force.

 

He didn't just have limbs cut off, he was also burned. I would think that would cause cell damage, including loss of Midi concentration.

 

I agree with this!

His injuries made him vulnerable to electricity, lost mobility and damaged him psychological.

He also had to use the force to keep himself alive, taking away from him using the his full force:
Example:
( I know this is a different franchise, but I think it still applies )

The fact that Anakin/Vader wasn't inherently evil, probably held him back from his potential in the DarkSide.

 

I'm not opposed to midi-chlorians, but I've never liked Lucas's weird explanation that losing limbs would cause someone to become weaker in the Force. That's making the Force too bound by the physical, if you ask me. That and the fact that Vader... just doesn't seem that ''weakened'' compared to his PT self. At least, not in any way that couldn't be better explained by something simpler, like the fact that he turned to the dark side and had to change his fighting style due to living in the suit.

 

Well reasoned, Saga_Symphony. Another thing that Lucas cites as a reason for the weakened state of both Vader and Obi Wan, is age. Why would age matter, if the force is largely a power of the mind? Wouldn't an older Jedi/Sith, who's been using the force for decades, be more, not less powerful? Yoda and Palpatine didn't appear to diminish in strength.

 

I don't see it making things too bound to the physical form at all.
Vader still being strong doesn't mean much at all. He still has a lot of his capabilities, and he has added a ton of experience over the years, but that doesn't mean that he is as strong as he could have been if he had stayed healthy.

Did he say that age made them weaker in the force?
Because I really don't remember him saying that. Their lightsaber fighting has become worse, but that is not the same as them being weaker in the force.

The force is based on the connection through the Midichlorians. Your mindset can have an influence on how well you currently connect, but it doesn't tell you how strong you can be.
Outside of that, with Midichlorians being losely based on Mitochondria, age could very well come into play when it comes to strength in the force. There is also the issue of relative and absolute strength. Someone can be past his prime yet still be stronger than everyone else.

Yoda talks about his waning strength in RotJ. Now, he was perfectly fine just a few decades prior to that, so the decline was somewhat sudden, but it definately hints at you getting weaker near the end.

 

Isn't mastery of the force needed to properly wield a lightsaber? Something about channeling the force through the blade, I believe. As to Yoda being weaker near the end. Does that really count? He was literally on his death bed, at that point.

 

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with that (though I think describing what happened to Anakin as 'not healthy' is... an understatement to say the least), I was more saying that Anakin doesn't really seem weaker, but if he is, I'd be more inclined to believe it's because he turned to the dark side and had to live in the suit, not because he lost limbs/ midi-chlorians.

Pretty sure he implied age was part of him being ''weaker'', along with Vader's injuries resulting in him losing midi-chlorians. That, and the idea that somehow having mechanical means to survive impaired Anakin's Force potential. Which, I can kinda understand, but again, I don't agree with.

And I wouldn't compare the ancient, near-to-death Yoda to Anakin. Their situations are just too different.

I also don't think Force mastery is needed to wield a lightsaber. IMO, it's basically like a boost. Take piloting. No one needs the Force to just be a good pilot, but having the Force will almost certainly make you naturally better at it.

 

Lucas says:

Lucas-talk (or spoken word in general by people in general, really) is easy to misinterpret or over-interpret on the printed page. I think Lucas here means that (1) Anakin loses "Force potential" not necessarily because he lost his limbs, but because he's become "more machine than man"--as @Lulu Mars said above--and (2) it's not that Anakin lost abilities that he already had, but that his potential to become even more vanished.

 

I mean, he literally says his Force powers are curbed because he lost his arms and legs and became ''partly a robot". There's no other reason given for him being weaker, and he even gives a rough percentage of how much potential was lost. I don't think there's really much to misinterpret there.

 

Right. There's not much of him left, he's become partially a robot, and his lost his potential. That's what he said, and that's what I said.

Note that your interpretation--that Anakin's lost Force ability is solely because of his lost midi-chlorians, and those are solely because of his lost limbs--is entirely your own.

 

I guess so. I do feel like Lucas has mentioned midi-chlorians specifically regarding this, but I could be wrong. Again, I don't like this idea that losing limbs/ midi-chlorians/ having mechanical body parts would diminish a person's Force potential, but given that midi-chlorians are established as this physical thing that's used to measure one's Force potential, and that Lucas seems to be emphasizing that losing physical body parts is tied to Anakin losing his Force potential... I'd say it's pretty easy to connect the dots there.

 

I'm almost positive that he has mentioned this. Either on a commentary track, or in an interview. Can't remember exactly where or when, though.

 

Seems logical to me. Life is connected to the Force, is it not? That's the first thing that was established about the Force in the movies. And life exists all the way down to the cell. The conduit between the life form and the Force are the midi-chlorians, which exist within the cell. It stands to reason that if you lose parts of your body, you're invariably less connected to the Force as you would be if you were whole, which is the point Lucas was making. And if you're less connected, the potential you had is negatively affected as well.

 

It sort of sounds logical to say you'd lose Force power when you lose body parts/ cells, but so does the idea that nutritional 'fat' turns to the fat on your belly and waist when you eat it. That's not exactly how it works.

I get that midi-chlorians are an established thing, but they're also a mysterious thing in of themselves and don't exactly adhere to the laws of science, especially in Anakin's case. And geez, think of all the Jedi who've ever lost a body part in the line of duty, and not only had to live with those injuries but also lost their connection to the Force.

That's just not an idea I like. IMO, midi-chlorians are a factor in the Force, but to paraphrase Yoda, there's more to the Force than ''crude matter''.

 

Nobody said that losing body parts make one lose their connection to the Force. You don't lose it, the connection is simply comparatively reduced. Nor has anyone said that the Force is nothing but "crude matter". It's not crude matter to begin with. It's an energy field, that relies one life forms to exist and be interacted with. Someone naturally less attuned to the Force can be more connected to someone naturally more attuned. All it takes is for the former to develop the connection and the latter not.

What's being compared is not two different individuals anyway, but exclusively the same individual before and after being severely maimed.

 

Didn't GGJ say they live inside cells?