Midichlorians are not an attempt to scientifically explain the force

I have seen and heard the complaint that the introduction of midichlorians in "The Phantom Menace" leaves a bitter taste in some people's mouths because it is an attempt to "explain the science of the force." This is not the case.

I believe that the only reason that midichlorians are introduced is to explain how Jedi could measure potential Jedi. Midichlorians don't create the force they are simply used as a measuring stick. A person with force capabilities tends to have a high midi-chlorian count.

 

Agreed. So Wampas, Scruffy Smugglers, and Suave Baron's all seem to have low Midichlorians. I guess this is why Droid or those with Low Midi's can not harness the force and efficiently wield a lightsaber!

 

i disagree. i believe midicholians are simply lazy writing on the part of GL to quickly and easily show us that anakin as supposed to be a badass.

 

No, there was originally going to be a scene in ANH where Obi-Wan tells Luke about midichlorians (some of the dialouge was even taken directly from that scene when they made the scene in TPM).

 

Midichlorians are not an attempt to scientifically explain the force

Agreed. And I believe midichlorians were put in TPM to explain how one Jedi can be more powerful than another Jedi even though they follow the same practice. It also ties in with the prophecy of "The Chosen One" being concieved out of the midichlorians.

I really do not see the big deal about having them in the saga. Seems to me that people are just looking for small things to complain about.

 

>>>>i disagree. i believe midicholians are simply lazy writing on the part of GL to quickly and easily show us that anakin as supposed to be a badass.

In what way does GL even attempt to do that?

 

It is also a handy way for Lucas to avoid having to write up an army of cloned Jedi. Since Lucas has said that midis are based on mitochondria, and we know those aren't cloned when a cell is cloned, then one could not create a Force-wielding clone. If it were possible, it would be a story-telling nightmare. Thanks to midichlorians, and their analogous traits to mitochondria, Lucas avoids such trouble.

 

I think much of the midichlorians controversy stems from the fact that many people feel it smacks of the old racist argument that some people are superior due simply to their biology. Of course that wasn't GL's intent, but I can see how it has a certain Nazi/eugenics flavor, in that you have this specialized police force combing the galaxy and taking blood samples to see who's got the right genetic "stuff" to join their elite corps.

In the OT the force was simply an energy field that some were more in tune with than others, but that was theoretically open to all. It's not much of a religion, after all, if most of the galaxy can't practice it because of biological factors outside their control.

(I should mention that midichlorians were one of the few big problems I found in the prequels. I'm not what you'd call a 'basher.')

 

But the idea wasn't created for the prequels (like SNS said, the idea was originally going to be in ANH).

 

No, but it was first featured in the prequels, and thus was one part of the prequels that I didn't like. The criticisms I raised above would still apply if midichlorians had been introduced in the OT.

 

"... but I can see how it has a certain Nazi/eugenics flavor, in that you have this specialized police force combing the galaxy and taking blood samples to see who's got the right genetic "stuff" to join their elite corps.

"In the OT the force was simply an energy field that some were more in tune with than others, but that was theoretically open to all. It's not much of a religion, after all, if most of the galaxy can't practice it because of biological factors outside their control."

1st of all-
the "stuff" or midichlorians don't give a person the ability to use the force-they are simply and indicator of if a person might have the potential to wield the force. It is simply a litmus test in a galaxy far, far away.


2ndly- In the OT it was NEVER theoretically open to all to use the force. Luke and Leia were the only two who had that option. It was never as if Lando could have trained to use the force and become a Jedi. You either have the gift, or you don't. Midichlorians are a way to measure that. A plot device to describe Anakin's incredible potential-that is all.

 

jaimestarr: "2ndly- In the OT it was NEVER theoretically open to all to use the force. Luke and Leia were the only two who had that option."

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that was ever stated in the OT. Granted, it was never said that other characters could have used the Force, but it was also never said that they couldn't have. In fact, I always got the impression that Obi Wan was sad to see Han so disparaging of the Force in the remote scene, as if Han was refusing to investigate a power that he might also have.

How do we know, for that matter, that Han or Lando didn't have a high midichlorian count? The Jedi weren't around to check them when they were children, after all.

And I agree that midichlorians was a plot device used to establish Anakin's superiority. That's the problem. There were several such plot devices in TPM, the pod race being the most obvious. But midichlorians was the only device that was purely materialistic, and that suggested that Anakin's ability was purely due to biology. It makes Force-ability seem less like as talent and more like a genetic trait.

And that's why, I think many people had a problem with midichlorians.

 

Actually, since the goal of the Sith is to eradicate the Jedi, creating an army of them would be counterproductive.

 

>>>> I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that was ever stated in the OT. Granted, it was never said that other characters could have used the Force, but it was also never said that they couldn't have.

Well, ask yourself why was it so important for Obi Wan to train Luke (as opposed to anyone else in the galaxy) that he waited around for 20 years on the off chance that he might get an opportunity?


It's never stated that not everybody can use the Force, but it's heavily implied that some are more attuned than others. The scene where Luke tells Leia she;s his sister springs to mind...

>>>> the "stuff" or midichlorians don't give a person the ability to use the force-they are simply and indicator of if a person might have the potential to wield the force.

There isn't actually anything in the film that suggests a connection between midichlorians and the ability to use the Force. Anakin has no power over the Force- he can't manipulate it, despite his prodigious midichlorian count. It isn't until he is trained by the Jedi that he has any control.

All that is said is that they "speak to us, telling us of the Will of the Force."



>>>>No, there was originally going to be a scene in ANH where Obi-Wan tells Luke about midichlorians (some of the dialouge was even taken directly from that scene when they made the scene in TPM).

Is there any evidence to support that? Because there's nothing like that in any of the drafts of the original film...

 

I think much of the midichlorians controversy stems from the fact that many people feel it smacks of the old racist argument that some people are superior due simply to their biology. Of course that wasn't GL's intent, but I can see how it has a certain Nazi/eugenics flavor, in that you have this specialized police force combing the galaxy and taking blood samples to see who's got the right genetic "stuff" to join their elite corps.

I agree with that assessment. Midichlorians represent a prejudicial aspect and pretty much ruins the notion by Yoda, "Judge me by my size?" and "luminous beings are we." It was very clear the Jedi used midichlorians as a way to judge people.

A more spiritual alternative to show Anakin's "Force Potential" could have been demonstrated with something along the lines of pulling a sword from a stone and "not this crude matter" that are midichlorians.

>>>> the "stuff" or midichlorians don't give a person the ability to use the force-they are simply and indicator of if a person might have the potential to wield the force.

However, according to the film, it allows for the existence of the Force to be known. Without these midichlorians the Jedi would have no knowledge of the Force, thus illustrating a scientific connection between the Jedi and the Force.

 

exactly, I feel Qui-Gon rapped it up pretty well in TPM. The Force is known becasue of Midichlorians. There is so much more detail you could get into though.

 

Midichlorians also serve another purpose. It is a genetic trait that can be passed on to children. This explains why Luke (and Leia) is a serious threat to the emperor as explained by Obi-Wan in ROTJ. Because he is genetically predisposed to be a powerful Force-wielder.

My 2 cents.

 

SomeRandomNerd:

Why was it so important for Obi Wan to train Luke (as opposed to anyone else in the galaxy)?

It comes down to this: if you think Obi-Wan trained Luke in order to kill Vader, then he chose Luke because he thought he would have lots of midichlorians, and thus lots of potential Force ability. In other words, he wanted to train the Jedi who would have the best chance of defeating Vader in combat.

On the other hand, if you think Obi-Wan trained Luke in order to redeem Vader, then he chose Luke because he was Vader's son. In other words, he wanted the one person (along with Leia) who had the emotional connection to Vader necessary to appeal to Vader's better instincts. I believe Obi-Wan trained Luke in order to redeem Vader, not to kill him.

Essentially, I have no problem with the idea that some are more attuned to the Force than others. I don't even have a problem with the idea that if a father is adept with the Force, then his son should probably be as well. (Just think of J.S. Bach and his sons). What I object to is the unequivocal way that Lucas located potential Force ability in biological structures. It's one thing to say that a son might somehow inherit his father's abilities. It's another to say that he will inherit them by virtue of specific microorganisms in his blood.

There isn't actually anything in the film that suggests a connection between midichlorians and the ability to use the Force.

I disagree; I think it is heavily implied by the subtext. Lines such as "Not even Master Yoda has a midichlorian count that high," clearly imply that midichlorian levels are an indicator of potential Force ability.

Anakin has no power over the Force- he can't manipulate it, despite his prodigious midichlorian count.

Qui-Gon tells Shmi that Anakin can see events before they happen, which is why he appears to have such quick reflexes. This suggests to me that Anakin is definitely using the Force, just not in the systematic way that Jedi do.

 

"I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that was ever stated in the OT. Granted, it was never said that other characters could have used the Force, but it was also never said that they couldn't have. In fact, I always got the impression that Obi Wan was sad to see Han so disparaging of the Force in the remote scene, as if Han was refusing to investigate a power that he might also have."

It is never directly stated in the Trilogy? What about "That boy is our last hope." "No, there is another....."? It's down to Luke and Leia. There are no other potential Jedi in the Galaxy. Yoda knows that better than anyone. If Lando, or Han or anyone else had the ability to use the force/become a Jedi or had a high midi chlorian count then it would seriously diminish Luke's (and to some extent Leia's) importance in the movie. If anyone can use the force, why even bother to watch wait and train Luke? I seriously doubt that Obi-Wan was bummed about Han ragging on the force because he thought that Han might be a potential force user. He didn't even seem disappointed-more amused at Han's ignorance.

" But midichlorians was the only device that was purely materialistic, and that suggested that Anakin's ability was purely due to biology. It makes Force-ability seem less like as talent and more like a genetic trait."

It is and always has been both. A person has the ability to use the force but they need to develop the talent to use it successfully. You could have a high midi-chlorian count/force ability and never know it. Anakin just happened to be using his talent by racing in pod races. It's not as if he can lift things with his mind or be really deadly with a lightsaber-he can race due to quick reflexes because he is tapping into the force (without realizing it.)

"What I object to is the unequivocal way that Lucas located potential Force ability in biological structures. It's one thing to say that a son might somehow inherit his father's abilities. It's another to say that he will inherit them by virtue of specific microorganisms in his blood."


It seems to me that you are not happy with the fact that the ability to use the force runs in some family's and not in others. It has always been biological-at least since "Return of the Jedi"-.."the Force runs strong in my family." That is Luke speaking to the biology of the whole thing right there. Family traits are biological. Again, it has always been in Star Wars that not everyone can use the force. In fact it seems to be more rare than not.

 

jaimestarr:

It is never directly stated in the Trilogy? What about "That boy is our last hope." "No, there is another....."? It's down to Luke and Leia. There are no other potential Jedi in the Galaxy.

As I stated above in response to SomeRandomNerd, I believe Obi Wan (and Yoda) trained Luke so that he could redeem Vader, not kill him. The reason Luke and Leia were the "last hope" is because they were all that was left of his family--they were the only people in the galaxy who had a close connection to Vader that might be used to remind him of the good person he used to be. And that's exactly what happened. Luke redeemed his father by showing him that there was still goodness inside him, a goodness that Luke personified.

Suppose Obi-Wan had found another potential Jedi equally adept as Luke: do you think Vader would have saved that Jedi from the Emperor as he did Luke? No, and why not? Because Luke had something no other Jedi would have: a familial bond with his father. That was what made Luke and Leia special: their connection to their father, not the midichlorians in their blood.

Furthermore, based on your own argument, how can there be no other potential Jedi? During the PT we see scores of children being identified and trained. What happens between ROTS and ANH? A midichlorian virus that wipes out all Force-able children except Luke and Leia?

It seems to me that you are not happy with the fact that the ability to use the force runs in some family's and not in others...Family traits are biological.

I have said more than once that I don't mind the idea of Force ability running in families; above I used the example of the Bach family and musical ability. What I disagree with is your last sentence, that family traits are biological. Biology plays a large part in this, certainly, but there are many other factors at work: environment, culture, economic position, educational opportunities, etc. In the OT these other factors were taken into account (or at least not ruled out). In the PT, these other factors seem to be disregarded in favor of biology alone. It is this reductionism that I object to.

A person has the ability to use the force but they need to develop the talent to use it successfully.

I agree. But by restricting those who have Force ability to only those who have a certain midichlorian count, you are drastically reducing the number of people who have access to the Force. This is what bothers people. Midichlorians make the Force much less "democratic" than we believed it to be from the OT. Only a certain biological elite even have the opportunity to cultivate their Force talent.

One final question: were you surprised to learn that Leia had Force abilities when it was revealed in the OT? Up until the final scenes of ESB, there had been no suggestion whatsoever that she was any more attuned to the Force than Han or even Threepio. But suddenly she is revealed as having these abilities.

My point is this: even if there is no overt clue that a character has Force abilities, that doesn't mean that they categorically do not. Just as we were surprised by Leia, so we (theoretically) could have been surprised by Han or Lando or Chewie.

 

All of you posed interesting points of view, and I would like to offer another one.

I was relatively young when I saw the original trilogy. And at that time, I wasn't very knowledgable about biology, but I was familiar with certain mythology and metaphors as well as virtue.

Therefore, when I heard the phrase "The Force is strong with my family," I interpreted it as meaning 'a favorable blessing' of sorts that is very often used in mythology such as 'the gods favor us,' which made tremendous sense since the Star Wars saga is often referred to as the 'modern myth.' Moreover, I interpreted the phrase, "The Force is strong with my family," as figuratively and mythically speaking to a 'family of nobility and virtue.' It is very common in myths to have god-like entities favor families with noble traits as they provide moral lessons. Lucas has stated that Star Wars did have moral lessons, and the phrase "The Force is strong with my family," could be interpreted as a mythical rather than biological.

Therefore, with a mythical way of thinking, Kenobi may have chose to train young Skywalker as The Force a god-like entity favors him. Remember, Kenobi and Yoda never intended to tell Luke the truth of his father, so it's not really logical to say that Kenobi knew the biological relationship would aid Luke in his fight against Darth Vader. At the time, Yoda noted, "Only as the Force as your ally can you defeat Vader," (or something like that) not appeal to Vader's sense of family ties.

From a certain point of view, the mythical approach to why the Force has a strong presence with the Skywalker family is far more of an attractive explanation than a biological one.

 

Sith_Sensei_Prime,

Very interesting points, and ones I'd never considered before. I can certainly see where you're coming from. Perhaps it's best to read these events as having mythological, biological, and familial explanations.

Remember, Kenobi and Yoda never intended to tell Luke the truth of his father, so it's not really logical to say that Kenobi knew the biological relationship would aid Luke in his fight against Darth Vader.

Point well taken. If what you say is true, then it certainly hurts my argument that Obi Wan wanted Luke to redeem Vader rather than destroy him. But I'm not sure we can jump to that conclusion. It's difficult to know what Obi Wan and Yoda's intentions were; perhaps they were simply waiting to tell Luke the truth later, after he had developed his skills as a Jedi. Perhaps that is one reason why they tried to stop him from going to Cloud City and facing Vader.

I hope that ROTS will clear up much of this debate. As it stands now, I simply can't imagine Obi Wan giving up wholly on Anakin. I think, given what we know of these characters, he would see Luke (and/or Leia) as his last chance to redeem his friend. Perhaps I'll be proven wrong, and ROTS will show a bitter Obi Wan who has no more hope left for Anakin.

 

Dionysus,
yup. We'll just have to wait until the release of Episode III to get a better picture.

 

That thing about not being able to make Jedi clones is interesting. They have done it in the EU, though. Bu they never knew about midichlorians in those times.

 

>>>>What I object to is the unequivocal way that Lucas located potential Force ability in biological structures. It's one thing to say that a son might somehow inherit his father's abilities. It's another to say that he will inherit them by virtue of specific microorganisms in his blood.

It's hardly unequivocal though. I mean, Palpatine was born in the Republic, and therefore it's reasonable to assume that his midichlorian count was taken. But he wasn't trained as a Jedi, and yet he became immensely powerful. (So powerful that Vader never felt he had surpassed him.)

Midichlorians are related to whether or not the Jedi will train someone, and the training is what gives them their power. Think of it this way- if I were going to open a basketball training school, I'd want to train my pupils from as young an age as possible, and I wouldn't want to waste my time training anyone who wasn't going to be tall enough to be a professional. But does that mean that there's a correlation between how tall someone is and how good they are at basketball? Obviously not- but there's no difference between drawing that correlation between height and skill, and between midichlorians and Jedi powers.

>>>>I disagree; I think it is heavily implied by the subtext. Lines such as "Not even Master Yoda has a midichlorian count that high," clearly imply that midichlorian levels are an indicator of potential Force ability.

That's only what you're reading into it though- there's nothing anywhere in the films that puts Yoda as the benchmark of Force-ability. Even after 800+ years of training, his strength is his wisdom;

"As wise as master Yoda, and as powerful as master Windu."

>>>Qui-Gon tells Shmi that Anakin can see events before they happen, which is why he appears to have such quick reflexes. This suggests to me that Anakin is definitely using the Force, just not in the systematic way that Jedi do.

The distinction I personally draw is between being aware of the Force (eg. Anakin's reflexes/seeing into the future, Luke "seeing" the training droid with the blast shield down, Leia "hearing" Luke's cry for help in ESB) and actively manipulating the Force- eg. mind tricks, telekenesis and so on. Anakin can feel the Force, he is already in touch with it, but without Jedi training, he will never have any power or control over it.

That's why it's such a big issue in TPM- Qui Gon believes that he needs to be given that power- the Council believes that it's dangerous to give him the power.