PT Mirrored relationships: Anakin and Padme vs. Han and Lea and why I prefer the first one

I wanted to start this topic from a very long time, because it is one of the most criticized topics in PT and because I think that the love story in PT is very underappreciated and absurdly compared to the OT romance : absurdly, because they are so different one to another and for me the 'winner' is Anakin-Padme relationship and here I will explain why by comparing it to the Lea-Han relationship. When in the title I said mirrored relationships I mean literally mirrored: they are practically antipodes (there some similarities between them, but they are few).

First and bigger difference: the doomed love of Ani and Padme vs. ordinary colleagues' love of Han and Lea.
When I say doomed, I don't have in mind that it leads to their death, but that the love leads and changes their fate (actually the fate of their world). We see nothing similar in OT; actually Han and Lea are ‘colleagues’ in the Rebellion who by the way, fall in love. But with or without it, almost nothing would change (Lea tries to save Han's life but Luke do the same for their friendship). In the case of Anakin and Padme is all the opposite: their choice to follow their feelings changes everything.

The old fashioned love story vs. the contemporary typical romance.
It is obvious why the story between Anakin and Padme is old-fashioned, for me it is mix between medieval tragedy and Victorian-like falling in love. This topic could be discussed in so many aspects, I will mention only some of them: he is (Jedi) Knight and she is (ex) Queen : the reference to the Lancelot-Guinevere story is obvious. Also, their love is pain, suffering, heavy choice, with sense of doom and dying; to be loyal to their feelings, they should betray another things… Sounds so close to the classical love stories as the already mentioned , as this between Tristan and Isolde, etc. What is the case of Han and Lea? They are like contemporary self confident people who control their feelings and who play the game of love but never falls in it. I know that this kind of romance sounds more familiar to the viewer, but the first one is actually more real and stronger.

The romantic non-romance vs. the non-romantic romance
Speaking of that, PT has a strong romantic taste: not in the Hollywood meaning but in the original meaning of this word, if I can so. Generally, the romanticism glorifies the past and that is what PT does: it describes the Golden era of the Galaxy far away (well also its sunset, but still this is the Golden era and it is in the past). The love story is also romantic in this sense, but it is not romance because it has hasn't almost any aspect of the typical movie romance: no flirting, no game of chasing, no presentations, gifts, flowers and all the rites of the contemporary romance. Also, Padme an Anakin are not romantic people (in the Hollywood meaning of the word, I mean). They have strong feelings, but this is completely different thing.
Actually, the romance of Han and Lea is a little atypical also but still has the characteristics of the contemporary relationships (especially the first too mentioned aspect) and I think that's one of the main reasons that many people likes it.

The rebellious love vs. the love of the rebels
No matter that in their life the parents serve but their child and her beloved one rebel, (funny, isn't it) the thing with the love stories are all the opposite. The love between Ani and Padme is rebellious because it goes against so many rules but also prejudices: the social differences between them (ex slave and Jedi warrior falls in love with Senator and ex queen) the age differences (she is older), the forbidden love, etc. In OT, the romance between the princess warrior and the badass tough smuggler with actually good heart has some ‘traces’ of the love of Lea parents, but only at first sight. Actually is a bit different. When Lea falls in love with Han he is already the good hero and she is already Rebellion leader and practically no more a princess. So they are both rebels but their love is not so rebellious.

Confessing their feelings vs. making confess their(her) feelings.
Now this is one of the most ignored aspects of the love stories. The crucial thing in the relationship between Padme and Anakin is to confess their feelings: not only one to another, but to themselves (as is in the case of Padme and in some degree in the case of Anakin also).
In OT we never see that from the part of Han: what he is doing in Ep.5 is to make Lea confess her feelings about him (and he succeeds) but he never confesses his feelings to her (that in the battle of Endor obviously doesn't count). And that’s why this is one of the few aspects in TFA that didn’t surprise me: is Han actually in love with Lea or this is more superfluous relationship for him if I can say so? About Anakin and Padme I think nobody could ever doubt that the situation is completely different.

The problem of the ‘why’ question
This makes me cringe every time I hear THE question about Ani and Padme, i.e. why Padme falls in love with Anakin (why he falls in love with her is almost never discussed). Well, I could answer very easy to this; what always was at some point unclear to me is why Lea falls in love with Han. Let’s see: in the case of PT we see this handsome, a little weird (i.e. intriguing) gentle, frank and spontaneous, intelligent, full of emotions young man that always makes Padme smile, that makes her feel so alive, so young, so free and so happy (we speak about Ep.2 here) so the answer is obvious. It is a way difficult to answer why suddenly Lea falls in love with Han. Yes, in the celebration in the end of ANH she began to appreciate his qualities, still ‘appreciate’ doesn’t mean ‘fall in love’. Why she chooses Han (and not Luke)? For me the only reason is because she senses that it cannot be Luke (no matter that she doesn’t know the true). Yes , Han already is changed and wants to be a better man, but still for me her love is much more inexplicable than the feelings of her mother.
This post is already too long and I would like to be more discussion than a essay, so I stop here.

I apologize to Cael-Fenton for borrowing a part of the title from his tread but this topic was discussed exactly there.

NB: Seagoat, I had some hesitations if this doesn’t belong to the Saga threads but as I wrote it in defense of PT, I decided to put it here.

 

Wonderfully written by the unexpected Tonyg

Can't read the whole thing and write a long response right now, but might I add, that Han and Leia's "romance" was inspired by 2 characters.

I cannot for the life of me remember what book it was or the characters(shoot out to PiettsHat) but it was part of a chapter where the man was about to rape one the main character. Even the dialogue is almost the same.

 

Very well written indeed. I agree completely. The Anakin/Padme romance has so many layers and the idea of such a brutal enforcer was once a young man in love adds so much to his character. Padme is my favorite female SW character. Her arc is so sad and yet, she's the one who still believes in her husband as the man he once was. An idea Luke will seem to "inherit" in the near future. Her death is his ruin but her offspring is his savior.

 

That, I think, was a good article Tonyg.

What I've found intriguing is this paragraph, especially what was in red:

I've found a critic of Episode II (which I posted in the Pro-PT article thread) which was originally written in French, and its author shares the same thoughts as you do below: http://www.ecranlarge.com/films/838303-star-wars-episode-ii-l-attaque-des-clones/critiques

 

Ultimately I feel it does belong in saga, but given the context here, I think what I'm gonna do is leave it in here for a bit then move it over after some time's passed. It's enough time to get different groups' valuable opinions. Not everyone goes into different sections frequently, and there are some regulars there who don't often venture into the PT section

So here for now, but in a short time (a couple days sound alright?) it'll head over there. How's that sound?

 

It sounds wonderful, thanx.

 

Very interesting, thank you for sharing it! I completely agree about the romantic aspect of PT. I would say even that one of the reasons that PT is less accepted ( I mean, less positively) in USA than in Europe , for example. In my country (is in Europe) the culture is not only past oriented, actually it is past fixed, a difference form USA that is the most contemporary oriented culture in the world, I think. I don't say it is better or worse, only that in such contemporary oriented culture is harder to accept this romantic journey (in the sense described above) what are the prequels.

Actually, OT has romantic glimpses also . Maybe George is just romantic who glorifies the Golden past and detests the empty modern times but in his latter movies he dare to show that stronger. I mean, in OT the rebels are romantic because they fight for something lost in the past, Luke is romantic because want to revive the Jedi Order. Paradoxically, Vader is that too, representing the last relicts of the ancient religion; also his sophisticated manner of speaking, thinking and so one also shows that he insists to be part of that past. So one of the problems of TFA for me is that it lacks of any romanticism at all, it is so extremely contemporary that it empty completely the sense of 'a long time ago in the galaxy far away'.

Anyway, back to the topic. Paradoxically, the love stories of the romanticism are never easy. They are awkward, they make the people feel uncomfortable , in may cases they are pain and suffering. Remember the confession of love of both Padme and Anakin: "I'm in agony" and "I was dying every day since you back in my life”. That is what makes many fans crazy, but for that are the real proves of real romantic courtly love. Only the contemporary culture made love as something easy, part of the everyday life (we have that sense with Han-Lea relationship). The real, big love stories of the past are never that. Remember Tristan and Isolde, for example.

 

You read my thoughts. I wanted to make this also as homage to Padme. Ani is my other favorite, still he is remembered enough in the Saga, but Padme belongs to PT only and I'm afraid she is a little but forgotten and she is the most remarkable female character in the whole Saga and of the most remarkable characters in the Saga at all.
I think it would be interesting to see what xezene and Sepra think, for example. I know that they are her fans as am I.

 

Now that is funny. I think for Han and Lea is very important to show one to another that they don't care for the other one (in such degree); that they are not in love and they are cool can control their feelings. This is a game and Han has black belt on it as he is obviously typical womanizer and Anakin is all the opposite. The PT love has nothing of game on it: they don't pretend to feel anything else (Padme never said "I don't have feelings for you" She said "It is irrational, it will destroy us).

Question: why unexpected? I thought I mentioned many times my preferences on this love story. I didn't write nothing since a time being too busy, but still I'm just curious why do you think it is unexpected...

 

I meant unexpected because I was so surprised to see this post yesterday

 

I prefer the Anakin/Padme romance as well. Many people make fun of the dialogue, such as: "I've been dying a little bit every day since you came back into my life. I truly, deeply, love you." About as sentimental and melodramatic as you can get, sure, but I think Natalie Portman pulls it off with aplomb--I totally buy her performance in that scene. I think it's a really powerful moment, as they admit their doomed love just before being sent off to die. There's something oddly liberating in that situation for her--Padme was always too responsible, too aware of consequences to give in to her feelings, and only now that their fate is out of her hands, is she free to at last be true to herself.

On the other hand, I dislike the bickering tone of the Leia/Han relationship and I actually feel really uncomfortable for Leia when she's alone with Han on the falcon--I get that she's supposed to secretly have feelings for him, but I don't feel it at all in Carrie Fisher's performance, which makes Han come across in a gross way to me. I do like the "I know" line though--on paper it easily could come across as arrogant, but Harrison Ford's delivery conveys, for a brief moment at least, a raw sense of vulnerability and regret, that tells me that Han Solo does indeed have feelings for Leia, and that even though he was treating it like a game, he was doing so because he didn't have the courage to be open about it.

 

I definitely agree.

I also think that Anakin and Padmé are - despite or maybe even because of the "old-fashioned" style in which they are presented - also quite modern and challenging. They are not just breaking classes but also conventions. There is the point that Anakin, as the man, is a lot more insecure and emotional and longing than Padmé. There is the fact that Padmé, as the woman, is older than Anakin and apparantly more mature and more rational and ultimately the one who is meant to decide whether they are going to be a couple or not. Those are things that are - even in modern Western societies - rare, sometimes controversial and even considered "inappropriate". Going by the cliché of their profession and personality - Anakin as the younger, more emotional one in a spiritual order and Padmé as the more mature, more rational one in the political arena - they turn expectations and conventions upside down.

Han and Leia on the other side are a lot more conventional. There are, right at the beginning, two males who compete for the woman - which always unwillingly reminds me of animals who have nothing but reproduction in their minds. Later, once the competition has been written out, there is the initially resistant and independent girl who quickly melts in front of her guy when something is at stake. Not that I am against that kind of more "primitive" portrayal of love - but I don't find it interesting at all.

Moreover, I feel like the Padmé and Anakin love really paved the way for Lucas' ultimate view on what's really important on the personal level in the Star Wars Saga. Love is - nowadays - almost universally presented as the one thing that's the key to everything. Even in science fiction. That's the reason why I really appreciate that Lucas took the time to make that point a lot more clearly by making the differentiation between compassionate love and possesive love. It's compassionate love that saves the day, not possesive love - and that's really illustrated through Padmé and Anakin's love story. I also like that by making them "secret lovers" Lucas was able to make things more complex. How much was Anakin's love possesive in itself and how much did the forced secrecy by socienty affect it?

All in all, Anakin and Padmé are just infinitely more complex and more challgenging. Both within themselves and the whole Lucas Saga.

 

Not to go off topic per se, but I've always felt the portrayal of Han and Leia in TFA was very true to life, based on what we saw in the OT. Leia had feelings for Han, and Han had some type of feelings for her, but we're they real? Let's examine:

Leia - Alderaan Princess, Rebel Leader, hunted by the Empire. Everything we see gives the feeling she always put duty first,before personal needs. Strong willed.

Han - smuggler,scum, in it for the money. Changes over time, but how much is left a mystery ( see his initial response to walk away from a hurt Leia in ROTJ ).

Now . . . You put these 2 elements together. I've hypothesized that not only was Leia a virgin, but that Han may very well have been her first actual relationship with another man. In him she sees excitement, passion, a chance to not only put herself first for once, and perhaps let loose some pent up needs and feelings, but also a window into a life she never knew. She "loved" Han, but only in the respect of the classic good girl falls for bad boy type of routine. She had no basis for knowing true romantic love before. If anything, she fell in "lust" with him. On Han's end, I believe he had some type of feelings for her, but not true love. He might have looked at her as a prize to be won. Indeed, he says as much to Luke in ANH about " a princess and a guy like me". It should be noted that even if he does feel for her, he plans to leave - twice! First on Hoth , where he only sticks with her due to necessity ( when the command center is hit and her path to the transport is blocked ) , and again on Bespin, when she says to him he'll soon be gone, and not only doesn't he deny this, he looks guilty about it. And, of course, the I love you - I know exchange. If you really loved someone, and thought there was a good possibility you were about to die, you'd say it, definitely. You'd want that to be your last words to them. I'd also point out that even after Leia says it to him again in ROTJ ( "Someone who loves you" ) , he again doesn't say it, and doesn't at all til near the end in a stressful moment.

Both characters were placed in a stressful situation - a war - and were thrown together by circumstances. Indeed, emotions and feelings are heightened by these type of situations, and rather that true love, I feel they both got caught up in the situation and the rampant emotions of knowing death could come at any moment, and to a degree used each other for what they needed. However, once the war was over, and you look at settling in a " real life " situation, then they discovered they had nothing in common to a degree, and with the situation that brought them together in the first place gone, perhaps their love wasn't as real as they thought.

Compare that to Anakin - Padme, there are similarities in tha Padme portion,but she was smart enough to know it want healthy for either of them. Indeed, she only gives in when they are about to die. But,again, is it real love, or just a crush that she embraces based on the idea the end is near. Anakin is just smitten from day one,and, indeed, thinks about her every day for 10 years. But,again, real love? More likely a form of obsessive stalking. Ask yourself, do you think of a man or woman every day that you met and were around for a few days, then never saw again for 10 years? I don't doubt he felt for her, but it felt more like a possessive love to me than a real,meaningful , honest relationship.

In short, I feel both relationships were doomed, because they weren't based on true love, but rather circumstances bringing the parties together, and they were there for each other when the other wanted or needed someone.

 

Agree, I would add that the marriage itself paradoxically is breaking conventions. Actually their refuse to be secret lovers, they refuse just have an affair, they become secret husband and wife, i.e. they completely dedicate one to another. I think this side of their marriage is very underestimated. This is not some crush or something superfluous, they dedicate one to another to rest of their lives (actually is what happened in the end). If I can say so, the give it all to the other, no matter what the consequences are. This is compassionate love. I think is not the secret itself that lead to the tragedy in their life, it is the fear, but this is completely different topic to discuss, anyway. When I talk about their love I mean when Anakin is Anakin, before his fall.
In the case of Han and Lea is all the opposite: they "fight" one to another, they fight who will dominate (i.e. who will make the other first confess that has feelings), they don't want to "give up", they want to dominate. This not only more conventional, is more comfortable, because, in the other case, in the case of Ani and Padme, when one gave up to the another, he/she is defenseless, helpless in front of the beloved one and the beloved one could easily break her/his heart because there is nothing between them.( and something similar happened to them, after all). And no matter that they both are young, their love is more mature, because the author of the story is already more mature when he wrote it.

 

While as I said I'm not completely sure about Han-Lea relationship, but still I can accept what happened in TFA looks possible ( i should say it is one of the few things I can accept in TFA, but anyway) I have to disagree about the relationship between Padme and Anakin.

Proves of true love? I find a lot of them in the tragic Episode 3. From Padme's side the biggest prove is that she went to Mustafar. I already discussed it here http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...y-dark-emotional-undertones-of-rots.50040217/, but in short: Padme didn't cross the half universe pregnant and alone for some other reason, but to save her beloved one.. from everything, even from himself if it is necessary. (she failed for different reasons but it is not because she didin't love him). And what about Anakin? Many people say that his love brought him to such end, I would say, all the opposite, it was his fear, the fear to loose Padme, the fear to watching helpless how she is dying as was in the case of his mother. And fear is the path to the Dark side. Actually is the love that in the end of ROTS still connects him to the rests of his true self. He undoubtedly became possessive falling to the Dark Side but still there was few moments when he become to his senses and yes, love is something to do about it. Even Palpatine knew that and he knew that Vader will never become truly loyal to him, that he can come back if his love is still alive so this love should be eradicated completely from Vader's mind or he really can come back. But this love can't disappear only because Padme is gone, the real love cannot be stop in that way, even the Sith knew that. This love can be destroyed only if Vader knows that he personally destroyed it. So the emperor didn't say: Padme is dead, he said: you killed her. We know it is not true, but that's is the problem: if Padme is gone, Anakin will be tormented by guilt and grief but mostly grief, because his love was real and the grief will overcome the anger and the hate, so Palpatine lied him and succeeded to destroy Anakin (as we can see not completely but it cost almost 20 years to Ani's salvation). And what about the ruminations' scene? Anakin and Padme feel each other as they are in the same room. It is not the same way as a trained Force user senses the others, is the love (the same happens in ROTJ when Vader feels the presence of his son but the Emperor did not).

About the 10 years of dreaming about Padme. I think many users misunderstand the feelings of Anakin and they think that he is in love with her during these 10 years. Not exactly. Yes, he thought about her every day but without seeing her so she became a dream, a muse if you like, an idea and a memory. After all, there is nothing wrong to think about someone who exists only in the dreams of a Jedi. That's why Obi Wan reacts in so moderate way in the Padme's apartment in AOTC: be careful (you are about to cross the border, but still, nothing beyond that). Well, after this 10 years suddenly Anakin's dream is materialized in real person. That's why he is so confused in their first meeting in AOTC (what if... she is not what I think, etc.). Such meeting could put an end of such dreams and feelings if he realizes that the real woman who looks like the angel of his dreams is different from what he thought. And he will be relieved and he will forget about her. Nothing similar happened: first, she is the same as he thinks she is (he said that in the refugee's ship) and second, this means that she really is the one. And he cannot be relieved, because he has a commitment that forbids him to be with her, so he is in agony. So his real feelings appear exactly in that period and it is because he has the possibility to know Padme more in all those weeks together. If he was possessive then, he will never stop trying to be closer to her, to dominate her, but he never did that. When she says after the kiss "I shouldn't do that" he apologizes, i.e. step back. When she says in the fireplace scene that this relationship is impossible he accepts that. He even didn't make her go with him on Tattoine. A possessive person would never act like that.

 

Thanks for the tag.

I never got into Han and Leia and I really got into Anakin and Padme, and I think I've talked about why, but I think in addition to old-fashioned vs contemporary love, you also have to see how romance is often treated in different genres.

In sci-fi/fantasy, the romance is light, is a fun side note to the overall plot but if it was taken out wouldn't kill the plot. Usually, it's between two heroes, and a lot of times those heroes bicker and flirt alternately as they fall in love. These are the kinds of romances that add a bit of spice, but it's hard (at least from my standpoint) to get invested in because they are entertaining but not deeply emotional. Personally I'm always invested in the plot in these types of adventures. There are exceptions to this of course, but in most genre movies and books this is mostly the case.

The Romance genre is different. There, the love story IS the story, and if you took that out, the whole narrative would collapse. Emotions are felt very deeply and most of the time and energy in the story is spent on a roller coaster of emotion as you get a build up and then a climax of recognition. The dialogue is also intense, with strong emotional language that is often described as "corny" or "overwrought" by people. The Romance genre is the largest and most lucrative of genres because this kind of storytelling gets the audience deeply invested. Romances in this category are what people "ship".

George Lucas "broke" the "rules" of the fantasy genre in the PT by putting a straight up romance with all the corniness and invested emotion into an otherwise typical fantasy adventure movie. He followed the rules in the OT. If you dig the real deal romance you liked Anakin and Padme. If you like your love to be typical sidelined fluff you probably appreciated Leia and Han.

That's why Star Wars has something for everyone.

 

Guess I should've said most of my observations were meant from an Episode II perspective. From the way he talks about her to the looks he gives just give me the impression of someone who has harbor end a 10 year crush they couldn't let go. He's even, openly, talking to her not so subtly about being in love with her on the refugee ship. It's only after the fireside chat that he seemingly gives up on the notion, at least for the moment. There is some possessiveness to his relationship in Episode 3 , with the jealousy of Padme talking with Obi-Wan ( somewhat removed from the movie ) and at the end ( You will not take her from me ! ) . I don't doubt Anakin loved Padme, but I'm not convinced it was a healthy type of love. Indeed, it bordered on obsession to me.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. The Anakin/Padme relationship is heavily influenced by the Romantic era in literature and that may be why it seemed to fall flat with some movie goers. Anakin and Padme is more closer to a medieval concept of love(or the victorian era interpretation of the medieval concept of courtly love) than Han and Leia who are definitely more modern. Movie goers are going to react better to a more modern archetype easier. That's why I love GL's work in that unlike Abrams he was about taking risks.

Anakin and Padme have more in common with Lancelot and Guinevere, Ivanhoe and Rowena, or even the book version of Aragorn and Arwen In lord of the rings. Han and Leia are a much represent a much more modern archetype of love.

Their dialouge was a bit clunky with each other but in context of the story it fits very well because of Anakins background, he is a member of a Monastic order that heavily discourages non platonic love, he is going to be awkward around Padme at first and he is going to be melodramatic, he has no experience with what is going on.

 

Well said and also think that their story as Sepra noted is center of the biggest story in the Saga (as in the so called romance genre) but a difference from it is also core of the most epic events in their world. So it stays personal but simbolically follows the fate of their world. I think it is indeed courageous from Lucas to do it way but it is essential part of the epicness of the prequels.

 

My god, those titles...



I like those titles!




Anyway, I agree with probably half of this comparison, but not that sure with the rest:

Yes, Anakin/Padme are what can be called a "classic epic fantasy romance" - not unlike Arwen/Aragorn, parallels to Othello etc.
Han/Leia are the "bickering adventure couple" from movies like "Romancing the Stone" or, well, Indiana Jones - not simply "more modern", but also a romantic trope from an epic movie genre.

It also should be pointed out that AOTC=ROTS - the latter very consistently an "epic romantic tragedy", while AOTC (not that successfully, imo) mixes that olde world romanticism (here in form of Romeo&Julia) with what I'd call "idyllic romance novel dating" (like the restaurant scene) and casual college romance (like the meadow scene) that is actually in a way MORE modern than IV/V - whereas those have a sense of a somewhat vintage adventure romance, the meadow scene could very be taking place between two ordinary people in 2016.

The way Padme "fangirls" at Dorme about her hot new bodyguard having to prove himself is also not very Victorian.



Then, someone here called Han/Leia "modern and empty" - well, how is the romantic adventure genre empty, again? How many ordinary fly across giant deserts and mountains while exchanging rapidfire witty retorts that could be from a movie?

Then there's this sentiment that audiences liked the PT one less because it's "more medieval and less accessible" - um, I don't see how that makes sense - the OT already mixed "olde" with "modern", with the American rebels and farmers, and the military aspect of the Empire as the snappy modern part, and the wizard masters and evil sorcerers as the ancient, prose-speaking part.
Luke has an arc in which he transitions from the former into the latter.

So, what's the audience consensus, did they like and coule relate to the modern sensibilities but zoned out during the medieval parts? Pretty sure both of those were equally popular and iconic - or, at least, have been for decades.


Then, there's obviously LOTR, which people seemed to be very much into until things started getting cheesy in the 2nd and 3rd movie, and started getting shoehorned into a subplot of questionable relation to the main one - but even those have nowhere the negative reception that EPII-III have.

Also, what about the "modern part" of Clones, described above? They had those bits, while Sith did not, and Clones is by far the most unpopular as far as the romance goes.



I think trying to explain this negative reception with general concepts like "medieval romance vs. modern" is a folly - it was disliked due to its particulars, execution, and questionable/uneven quality.

II seemed confused about what type of thing it was doing at a given moment - what's going on in the fireplace scene, are they in love but Padme is grown-up and refuses, or does she value him as a friend / hot guy but he's seriously making her uncomfortable?
He creates lots of embarassing moments throughout the movie, which people dislike because they put themselves into those situations via mirror neurons and hence also feel awkward by proxy - and they also don't feel like this type of thing is justified to be in the movie.

They're not entirely convinced by the actor sometimes staring into the camera for 2 seconds after finishing his line, which happens in ROTS as well along with some wooden deliveries here and there - however, most of the hatred for that one does, indeed, seem to be a projection from AOTC, which is obvious when people criticize it by citing factors that ARE EXCLUSIVELY FOUND IN THE SECOND MOVIE ONLY.




Now you may like the Clones romance for all those reasons, or other reasons, but even if you do I don't think there's any basis to think that others don't because it's "not modern enough".

I obviously don't entirely like it
_________________________________

So what about "romantic comedies", then? Those focus on the romance primarily, yet they're full of bickering and flirting and snappy retorts or what not.

Couple in Romance novels are the ones people "ship"? Always seemed like the exact opposite to me, that people ship characters within larger ensemble casts that may either have something going on, or only the slightest implication, or just wishful thinking on the part of the fans - that's because "shipping" means "hey, I ship those two!", which is kind of moot when "those two" are the only two characters in the story that revolves entirely around them.
But "shipping" isn't synonymous with rooting for or being invested into a romance, it's a more specific fandom thing, so that may be an irrelevant counterpoint.


Lucas broke new ground be making romance the central plot of an adventure movie? Well, ROTS isn't an "adventure movie" - it's Pearl Harbor + Othello in space.

In the Silmarillion, there was that rather important bit about Beren and Luthien - in Greek Mythology, the Orpheus story among others, none of those being the central core of either respective mythologies, but they're fully realized stories within that universe that entirely revolve around... the romance.

So this isn't some novel concept.



No, ESB wasn't "a romance" - the two lovebirds filled one of the two storylines (almost equal in importance, but slightly not as central as Luke's), and if you really want to isolate the most primary aspect of that storyline, it's "the group of friends in the resistance are captured and tormented by the bad guys", but just because you could've done a platonic version with two men instead and not changed too much about the outline, doesn't mean the romance wasn't an essential component, if not the emotional core of that storyline.




So, in summary, I think I have a hard time matching your description with the movies as they were released

 

Thank you for the appreciation of the titles. The love story of Ani and Padme is discussed in many threads here but I wanted to discuss it exactly in the opposition with Han-Lea romance. And I really wanted to see the arguments of someone that don't like (entirely) the story, as you. It makes a good discussion

Now I want to clarify some details. About the test of the bodyguard: actually, the test is something very medieval and folkloric. The knight should protect the queen at all cost. It is what happened in Camelot (or at least in one of the versions of the legend and leaded to the love story between Guinevere and Lancelot) and not only there but it is a very old motive.
The meadow scene: the first time I saw it I thought that it was as is taken from pastoral romance. Well, we don't see sheeps, but some space cows, but anyway, it looks exactly pastoral, romantic (in the literal sense described above) and taken from the old times. The fireplace scene looks also completely archaic. First: no touching at all. In modern romance they would be on the floor already if you excuse my French . Second: the dialogue: it looks like medieval love card. They never say "I love you" there. It is always something about tormented heart suffering and pain. And the end of Ani's monologue:” I’ll do whatever you ask". For example catch a unicorn or even a bigger feat. Pure knighthood from the beginning to the end. So no matter that someone like it or not , the medieval sense is there

Why I insisted in the opposition old-contemporary: because the main argument of the people who dislike the PT love story is exactly contemporary: they say that the lovers feel uneasy and awkward and the viewer feel in the same way with them. What I'm saying is no matter that the audience realize it or not, feel easy and comfortable in a love story is something very contemporary. In the Victorian era, as I said the love itself, no matter appropriate or not, is always uneasy, uncomfortable, awkward, even shameful. And we have forbidden love here. They couldn’t be OK and easy going with that. Anakin himself dares to express openly his feelings after a large days in the idyllic county, stolen kiss a lot of conversations and playing in the meadow and he do it in a scene where Padme obviously is ready to hear something like that (just look at her dress) but still hesitates. Ani is not stupid; he knows that their feelings are against everything. So how can the viewer feel good while looking such suffering and torment feelings? It would be creepy if Lucas presented that in some light-hearted way. Actually the Padme confession happened in similar way: on the way to the execution as in classical French novel where two lovers are lead to the place of their death.

Why in ROTS the things changed? Why Anakin and Padme feel more free and comfortable to each other? Simply, because they are married already. There is nothing to fear (is he/she feel the same way about me, etc. ) nothing to confess and to accept. What should be told and do is done and they are happy in their love. Of course it still stays forbidden, but they just accepted their feelings and that made all the awkwardness to disappear. It is typical for the Victorian literature: when love is confessed and marriage is realized the things change immediately and the tension disappears completely. So for me this change was natural.

P.S. I'm curious what Cryogenic thinks about this topic as someone who appreciate AOTC.

 

Archaic, but not antique


Yes, the fireplace scene and others like it are done "archaic style".

The other two scenes I called "modern style" simply because of their tone and how they were delivered - on the meadow they talked like casual modern humans, I saw nothing particularly fantasy or archaic or epic or prose about it, it's like a college romance or something (might've been James Dean inspired, too).

As for Padme's fangirling and winking, well, compare it to like the scene from A Knight's Tale (a somewhat ironic comparison given how that movie itself isn't, technically, purely, a straight-ahead piece of genre...) where the princess is talking to her handmaiden and says something like "I want him (Heath Ledger on the tournament) to win my heart" - now that's properly aristocratic prose stuff!
That scene with Dorme, on the other hand... is not.

Ah... okay... maybe.
If it's a specific Victorian thing?

Well I'm not entirely sure what you mean here, but I'm talking awkward/uneasy/shameful not so much in the "these two feel the carnal desire of the spirit but tremble at the sinful, wicked nature", or "the parents arranged the dinner for them and they don't really know what to say, exchanging shy looks of uncertainty" - but much more in the "he just acted like a stupid douche and everyone in the room's like Jesus really" or "he's getting way corny here with the poetic advances and she just hopes he stops before she sinks through the floor".

I mean, I dunno.... is that the type of thing going on in Victorian romance?
I should go check it out

Well, the viewer feels relatively good (in a sense) while he's burning in the lava, but feels bad when he creates a stupid situation in Jamilia's court - no one complains about the "suffering and torment", they complain about the desire to sink through the floor to escape the embarassing moment.

Because if they wanted that, they'd go to the cringe subreddit

Eh, it's not about "tension" - if I watch ROTS I can imagine their backstory having "tension", but I can't imagine this "strong confident warrior and his devoted wife" having started out as "hapless guy chasing after her and earning looks of semi-contempt half the time".
And that's the other thing, the movie seems to be doing both the "she's not into him because he's kind of a douche/drok" and "she loves him but can't give in due to epic tragic society stuff" angles at different times, or at the same time, and I don't see how they fit together.

 

I honestly have no idea about what scene of Dorme are talking about and how exactly this fits in the love story.. may be if you clarify this point a little more... I was talking about the simple fact that the motive of the protector and his dame is old. Anakin is not exactly Padme's bodyguard, he is her protector in a very special way. The knights protected the queen in special occasions, in the ordinary days this role is played by the guards of the castle. Here we have similar situation.

Speaking about contemporary sense, exactly the Knight's Tale is contemporary, trying to be old fashioned. That's why I dislike this movie because they look like 21st century people dressed in medieval costumes: is not enough to have the dresses and the buildings to make the audience feel 'in the old times'. They think and act as contemporary people and it is what Ani and Padme doesn’t do in their love story. Also, is not necessary to use archaic i.e. strange words but it is enough to change the style of speaking: ‘Master Windu, you fought bravely’. Or the prime minister is anxious(!) to see you’. This melodramatic archaic style of speaking ( and in the love scenes it has even greater impact) makes the viewer think that this is something old, from the past times and forgotten legends. A difference from OT where the sense is contemporary.
Example of (pre)Victorian love confession (Pride and prejudicies). It looks awkward, isn’t it? Can you imagine that someone nowadays could say such thing?

About the meadow scene: there are all echoes the pastoral love presented in older paintings and literature. Of course they do it even nowadays, but still it looks more how to explain it form the county, oldie, forgotten. Yes, they talk about ordinary things there but exactly that happen in the Victorian literature. They talk normally, they speak about many thing and when it comes to confess their love.. well the suffering begins, all is changed immediately. I have seen in so many movies and novels, that's why Sepra said that it is usual in another genres but not in this one. Here, between 56 and 58 min: typical Victorian confession of love as I described it, form a typical and very interesting novel. Is uncomfortable for both persons ( there is happy ending for them, but not here, not during this confession)
About being comfortable when on the screen someone is burning: honestly, I can't be. This scene horrifies me and when I watched ROTS in DVD I just skipped it. Even some viewers think that the movie should have R rating for it. So for me the movie succeed if the viewer feel what the protagonist feel. AOTC tell the love story mostly trough Anakin's eyes. He feels exactly uncomfortable in those moments and the movie make the viewer feel the same way. If the viewer is "it doesn't matter anyway" the movie has no any emotional impact on him/her.

 

When they're exiting that air bus and about to depart for Coruscant, Padme says goodbye to Dorme (Rose Byrne) who breaks out in tears and says she's afraid for Padme - entirely consistent with "aristocratic costume drama style", I should add.

But then Padme responds that if the assassins find her then her Jedi protector will have to prove how good he is, while Anakin's grinning in the background - her playful delivery of that line has none of "princess and handmaiden talk about the handsome prince/knight/swordsmith in her chamber" and all of "college girl can't believe she's gonna travel with the hottest stud from the sports team".

For comparison, take that black-and-white flashback scene with Nadia from "Alias", where she's training how to defuse a bomb and the instructor asks her why she doesn't do this particular thing, to which she responds "because then the bomb would go off and I'd be playing a harp in the clouds with Diego" - Diego, her hot Latino co-student, grins in response.
That particular scene takes care "in class", and the characters are acting like normal casual people there, i.e. not "suave agents" or some other stylization.

It's almost the exact same scene, delivered in a very similar fashion - so yea, "modern everyday" sensibility there, 100%.

Well yea, but that particular scene isn't delivered in an "archaic fantasy" fashion, though some of the others are.

They do in a lot of AOTC scenes, but not others - it's a "stylistic mix", though in this case not a functional/successful one IMO.

Exactly - a lot of the AOTC scenes are done in that fashion, but not all of them, and the meadow scene is one of those that goes for a modern casual tone instead.

In ROTS, the "epic archaic style" is consistent, however.

Well, a couple scenes, like the conversation in Cloud City (before they're betrayed), or "someone who loves you" are equally stylized and melodramatic, but more in the sense of like a vintage romance from the early 20th century - so "more contempory" in that sense.
Most are realistic and casual, though. *

The romantic ones obviously, not talking about Luke in ROTJ etc.

It only looks awkward if one party is talking in that style (bonus if somewhat haplessly, too, like Anakin in II) - it's not awkward if both do it, especially in a culture where that type of thing is common in dates, candlelight dinners or otherwise.

There certainly is no "awkwardness" if the whole culture is aristocratic and talks like that, as is the case in the above example.

People from "stylized old century romances" can also go lie around in the grass, but they'll be acting differently - the (NSFW) witchsploitation movie Mark of the Devil has a romantic scene on a meadow (with Udo Kier), and the difference is obvious.

This is a lot more like that bit with James Dean, I forgot the name of the movie though....

But that's not uncomfortable in the sense of "he's being awkward and possibly makes her want to sink through the floor" - a more obvious version of which could be scene in the court scene where all the people were like "wait what's going here I can't even"

Well different strokes etc., but the immolation scene is exactly the kind of "great sorrows and operatic suffering" that people watch these kinds of movies for.

Sure, getting burned and electrocuted is worse than saying something awkward and people staring at you in disbelief - but the former is the stuff big stories are made of, and the latter isn't quite as epic



At any rate, this is the type of stuff why people dislike the romance from AOTC - not because it's styled like Pride&Prejudice, but primarily because of all these faux-pas, and the abiguity between "she just wans him to leave her alone vs. suppressed her great feelings".
That was obviously part of the intent (Chrisensen wanted something more dignified and Lucas, according to himself, insisted he be "this whiny kid"), though I'm not sure if all the particulars of its implementation were also intentional.

Then there's the more subjective aspect where the specific phrasings are found to be more corny than charming, or the delivery is perceived as wooden or forced etc. - which is probably hard to quantify, but people don't tend to see such flaws in P&P and other acclaimed classics (if they did they wouldn't be "acclaimed", after all).

 

From what I remember of Pride & Prejudice, there's actually quite a lot of ambiguity and uncomfortableness in the relationship between Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy. At first she practically despises him, and he comes across as unlikable and arrogant, and it's only with time that they come to understand and confess their feelings. So I would say that the sense of ambiguity and awkwardness is something it has in common with AotC. It's admittedly quite a contrast from the modern style of romance which would have them instantly feeling comfortable in each other's company and then have external factors pull them apart to create the drama of the story.