My FOTJ theory: Maw of the Abominor versus the Celestial Silentium

This is my FATE OF THE JEDI theory:

We have been getting a lot of hints about the ancient powers of the galaxy from recent books. The Centerpoint Station and the Maw are said to have been constructed by the Celestials (known to Corellians as the Architects), although the Killiks believe they built them. There are the energy bogeys abandoning their work on Kessel after the destruction of Centerpoint. There was the nanotechnological Fizz that targeted the Killik hives, and was later made into a very dangerous and precise weapon by the Imperial moffs.

We also know that the Yuuzhan Vong galxy was ripped apart by two warring robotic races, the chaotic Abominor and the orderly Silentium. They were defeated and driven out by the Yuuzhan Vong after being armed by Yuuzhan'tar, going on to becoming a bloodthirsty race of their own. But we know at least some Abominor and Silentium escaped to the Star Wars galaxy, with Artoo and Threepio encountering an Abominor, and Lando befriending a Silentium in his past. We're not sure if the Silentium and Abominor originated in the Vong galaxy or Skywalker galaxy, or if they each control empires spanning several galaxies.



Abominor, trapped in the Maw, threatening to consume the galaxy and all life?
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Silentium, the star-shaped Celestials, constructors of Centerpoint Station and the Maw?
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I think it might make sense to indentify the threat in the Maw, said to be a threat to the Force itself, as the Abominor. A living thing cannot be a threat to the Force itself, but a droid race could. If it was the Celestials who constructed the Maw, and the Silentium who are enemies of the Abominor, then it would make sense that the Silentium are the Celestials.

The Celestial Silentium (the Silentium droids are indeed star-shaped) must have trapped the most powerful Abominor in the Maw millennia ago. The Silentium then created the energy bogeys to monitor them from a base inside Kessel, as the power of Centerpoint Station kept them in. Maybe the Killiks were used or created to be the construction workers of the Silentium, which is how they remember building Centerpoint and the Maw, and the Fizz was an Abominor weapon used against them eons ago. Perhaps it was being caught in the crossfire of their war that de-evolved or caused the decay of the other ancient powers, such as the Rakatans, Kwa, Gree, Sharu, Columi, Charon, Waru, Force Demons, etc.



Raynar Thul could be a valuable source of information to the Jedi on this, since he was once the Joiner King of the Unu Killik hivemind.

The threat in the Maw being the Abominor would also explain why the Jedi did not sense a dark presence in the Force when they stationed all the Jedi children there during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.

The question is... did Daala know about this, from her time in the Maw?

Lumiya and Daala were both missing Imperials for years, and Lumiya spoke of a plot that would go on even if she failed. Lumiya started a war that Daala benefitted from... coincidence?

Did Daala and the Imperial scientists stationed in the Maw for all those years have really come up with all those superweapon designs by themselves, or could they have gotten help from a destuctive, more technologically advanced race?

Could Vergere have discovered the threat when she returned, which is why she wanted to save the Yuuzhan Vong from Alpha Red, since they once drove off both the Silentium and Abominor, and may be a useful ally in the future?

How did Jacen discover and awaken them in the Maw, when on his journey? Is he the reason why the threat wants Allana?

Could the Mind Drinkers be the enslaved minions of the Abominor, using their power to infect the young Jedi who were stationed there during the Yuuzhan Vong war?



If the Abominor will indeed be unleashed now that Centerpoint Station was destroyed, they could threaten to consume the galaxy and all life in it, indee

 

I had been thinking that the Silentium and the Fizz are connected.

I like your theory.

 

This is a really interesting and thought out theory. If Del-Rey really ends up connecting all these dots like this, then bravo to them.

 

I've been plugging this on the main FOTJ thread for a while... so... I approve of this thread.

Only thing I would add (not that I actually like this) is that apparently the Silentium are only star shaped when they are "young", but they aspire to become ball shaped in later life. I guess in their number obsessed culture they like the perfection of circles, but... yeah.

So, yeah, that means we've got a race of Death Stars.

I'd happily see that fact conveniently ignored and any that showed up in the books be squids though. Squids are just more interesting and remind me of the sentinels in the Matrix. More creepy.

Anyway, a few other random thoughts:

I like your linking the Sorcerers of Rhand to this. There's an interesting connection between worshipping the "Dark" and the fact it'd be the "gods" sealed inside a nest of black holes. Doesn't get any darker than that. I've actually be pondering the Mind Drinkers being the Rhandites recently too... after all, there is still the answered question of how Cronal survives being atomised in hyperspace. If he was in truth just some body snatching ghost from the beginning though, he wouldn't miss the old age pensioner he'd years ago possessed.

If we do get the Silentium vs. Abominor war (which I've been longing for ever since they introduced that retcon) what I also want to see (as mentioned in the main thread) is the Silentium not being the good guys so much as they are the "Vorlons" (B5 reference). The Abominor can be the Shadows and truly be the bad guys, but I'd like the Silentium to be this master race of cosmic overlords who think they're basically gods. The Celestials have been the king makers for countless millennia, and I don't see them taking kindly to the mortal races having ignorantly destroyed Centerpoint in their civil wars, thereby fracturing the network that sealed the Abominor inside the Maw. So I'd enjoy things to descend into a state where the Silentium both want to destroy the Abominor, and purge the GA in order to "reset" things so the mortal races behave again. (Though not intentional, I suppose this would be rather like the Reapers in Mass Effect... only instead they'd be doing it for what they saw as "benevolent" purposes, i.e. "we must help the mortal races help themselves".)

Other things I've speculated elsewhere... hmm... oh yes: entechment! I'd really like for the Ssi-Ruuk's converting life force into machine power stuff be explained as a "gift" they were handed by the Silentium. The Silentium do live in the Unknown Regions as well, after all. (Also: notice how similar the Star Forge's ability to drain people's lives to fuel itself is also similar to entechment?)

And I've not time to write more at the moment, so I'll leave it there for now.

If anyone ever watched Shadow Raiders as a kid though, then what would I like in the Maw? The Beast Planet. Big Death Star sized thing that literally "ate" planets and turned them into drone fighters and droids. If inside one of the "maws" there was essentially a "giant maw" I just think that'd be rather amusing. Plus I always did think the Beast Planet was spooky.

 

Very interesting.

However, personally, I think I would rather have a diversity of ancient super-civilizations, rather than condensing them into two or three. Hyperadvanced "Ancients" are an annoyingly common sci-fi cliche and it'd be better for Star Wars to go down a more non-traditional route with them.

Assuming the GFFA is a lot like the Milky Way, it's over 12 billion years old. Most of the history we know starts hundreds of thousands of years BBY. The Old Republic lasted about 25,000 years---a blink of an eye in astronomic terms. There's a huge amount of unaccounted-for time where many, many space-faring civilizations could have come and gone, leaving their mark on the galaxy. So, I'd rather have a bunch of different Elder Things, if we're going to have Elder Things at all.

 

Well, we still would have that... but the only way we're ever going to have anything other than "The Rakata are behind everything!!!" is if we actually explore the others as well. Having something about the Silentium and Abominor would be just part of that discovery.

We've still got the rivalry between the Kwa and Gree Imperiums, both of whom used hypergates, which I've always felt is a very different technological branch to the Rakatas hyperdrives (even if it still is using hyperspace, its a very different approach). The Rakata just did FTL, the Kwa and Gree both went the Aing-Tii route of instant travel. On the basis hyperdrives started out as Force-developed tech, I find the potential link between the Aing-Tii and the Gree/Kwa very interesting.

You could maybe even then link that into Otherspace being "whats between the hypergates" and have a further series one day exploring all that, or whatever. Lots of endless possibilities.

But unless we actually have series exploring these things they're always just going to be nothing but barely known facts on a Wookiee page. So, I can't say I think there's any harm done in making the ancient machine races into the big bad threats. Might it be wrong to retcon Centerpoint, the Maw, the Killiks and all these things into the same race? Perhaps, that much is fair. Though, as all this stuff has been built up into a big metaplot involving the "Celestials", I won't be too surprised if Denning does end up linking all the threads together.

But that still leaves the Gree, the Kwa, etc. to be explored in future series.

 

Any possible way I can ask who the heck 'Abominor' is without looking completely stupid?

 

Silentium = "good" robots from the Vong galaxy.
Abominor = "nasty" robots from the Vong galaxy.

The Abominor are essentially your more simple minded "kill all lifeforms" robot race. The Silentium have been portrayed as "nice" guys, but Dan Wallace has said he thinks they may in fact be more sinister than they make themselves out to be (which is why I like to believe that they're your Vorlon-type of interfering know-it-alls who like playing god).

The Vong basically ended up hating technology because the war between the Silentium and the Abominor was what originally trashed their galaxy. It is one reason though why I find the fact Zonama Sekot has giant planetary engines rather intriguing... as that isn't organic. That's far more like pre-Machine War tech, with Sekot possibly possessing BOTH the Vong's familiar organic technology AND the heavily advanced conventional technology they presumably used millennia ago.

Given the Silentium have been in the galaxy for millennia, we can assume the Abominor probably have been too (as they presumably got booted out of the Vong galaxy at the same time). We also know that Zonama Sekot has been around for an undefined period. I'd find it very interesting if it turned out Zonama Sekot has been here as long as the Silentium and Abominor, and was fired into the void during the worst part of the "Machine War" to ensure the Vong race survived if they lost, but was then later pursued by the defeated Silentium and Abominor to the same galaxy.

One thing I wouldn't necessarily mind seeing retconned though is the date the Sharu were threatened by the Celestials (keeping in mind the Sharu interacted with a star shaped race that resembled Vuffi Raa--whose creators were later said to be star shaped as well). On the basis the Celestials that both threatened the Sharu and created Centerpoint in 1,000,000 BBY are actually the Silentium, I don't mind them retconning that date as being "Sharu years" or something. I'd possibly prefer the whole Machine War/Silentium+Abominor arrival in the Galaxy not being that far in the past. It's always struck me as a bit unfathomable that the Silentium have been around for a million years... Not that it really matters all that much, so if they left it at a million BBY I don't really care too much, I'm just not sure if I like the Silentium/Abominor/Sekot all being around longer than the Rakata or not.

But I suppose travelling between galaxies does take a long time... so maybe it makes sense that the "Machine War" truly was ANCIENT to give enough time for the Vong themselves to make the trip. Part of me though has always just wanted the Vong's travel time to be given some pseudo-scientific excuse for how it didn't actually take all that long. It may just be that I've always disliked that coralskipper in KOTOR.

Though... saying that... maybe that coralskipper could just have come from Zonama Sekot.

 

Whoa, whoa... where did all of this material and intel about the Vong galaxy come from?? Am I really this far out of the loop, or does this relate to the INVASION comic series?

Apologies in advance if this has been asked and answered, but I was under the impression that very little was known about the Vong's original galaxy...

 

AWESOME... I love it and want it...


though some concern... we have over 25000 years of Jedi history and why do all ancient threats come to life in Luke's lifetime post-Vader? This is the only thing that seems very odd to me. I mean... superraces, ancient Sith pockets, handfull of Sith spirits trying to install new Lords, Sith spirits trying to be revived after thousands of years, lost colonies from thousands of years ago popping up, etc.

you get the trend... connect old to current time is good, but lets not overdo it with cramming everything into Luke's lifetime. leave something for Ben, Cade and Co... or resolve some of it in ancient and old times of the Old Republic we have not yet filled.

aside from that I like the general story theories

 

Thanks.

Perhaps all these ancient threats popping up are due to the balancing of the Force? This is simply the Force's method of "weeding" out all the old, bad threats?

Jacen finds the weed, Luke cleans it up.

Which, I just noticed, sounds very similar to what Vergere was telling Jacen his destiny was, to be a gardener, back in TRAITOR...

It came from the Essential Guide to Droids, which came out a few years ago, I think. We find out in THE UNIFYING FORCE that the Yuuzhan Vong were caught in the crossfire of a war between two races that were more mechanical than organic, that their homeworld Yuuzhan'tar then gave them the knowledge to drive them out, which they did. But defeating the two warring droid races also turned the Yuuzhan Vong into hating all machines, and they then went on a war of conquest to purge their entire galaxy of all machines. Which they did, as well as wiping out or enslaving the other organic races such as the Chazrach, and then warring among themselves until they were united in the Cremlevian War. But after all that, the Vong galaxy was ruined, so they left to find a new galaxy.

We're not sure if the Silentium and Abominor originated from the Vong galaxy, though. We just know they were the two droid races that were fighting there, responsible for the rise of the Yuuzhan Vong.

Well, as I understand it, the hyperdrive technology on Zonama was built by the Ferroans. The "seed" of Yuuzhan'tar wasn't the entire planet, it was just a seed (named Sekot) that landed on planet Zonama. I think ROGUE PLANET is the first time the hyperdrive technology is actually used to move the planet. But you're right, I'm sure it's intentional, to show that there can be harmony between the organic and mechanical. I think Sekot has been in the galaxy for millions of years, just having recently "awakened

 

great catch

though when first reading your post I read:

 

So the Autobots and Decepticons were defeated by the Vong, and Jacen Solo woke Megatron in the Maw? Can't say I like it.

 

The Chosen One prophecy isn't possibly an Aing-Tii prophecy; Obi-Wan specifically states that it's a Jedi prophecy in the ROTS novel.

 

Maybe that's what Obi-wan thinks... Yoda could have discovered them, and asked him to keep them a secret, since they dislike outsiders so much.


If this theory is true, Lando and the droids could both have a major role to play. With Lando having prior experience with the Silentium; Artoo and Threepio having prior experience with the Abominor.

 

I've never really had an opinion on where the prophecy came from, personally. I've seen all sorts of theories bounced around, from it being the same as the Sith'ari prophecy, to it being something the Whills told a Jedi once, to it being some hidden meaning of the Prophecy of the Five. I doubt we'll ever get to see it being told or ever learn the full wording, so I can't say I tend to think too hard about it.

Well, we had the Rakata in KOTOR's time period... so at least one other "ancient race" has been addressed in a previous generation's time frame. But, yeah, the simple answer is obviously just "because Luke is the hero in the books so gets to do it all".

Yeah. Technically it isn't yet "canon", but the implication is quite obviously that it is meant to be the case, and I think Dan Wallace has all but said that it was his intention when the NEGtD was put together. Just, like with most of the NEGs, they left i some wiggle room should they later change their minds.

Ah. Oh well. In any event, I like the idea that firing off all these "seeds" was probably done during the great "Machine War" that was threatening to drive the Yuuzhan Vong to extinction. I still do find the idea the Ferroans essentially returned to "pre-technophobia" civilisation an interesting possibility, however. Which brings me to your next point...

I was pondering about that a while back.

I'm torn on my thoughts. On one hand, I do like it when things all tie together neatly. On the other hand, I also am appreciative of the reluctance others have to tying everything back to the Vong galaxy (which, admittedly, is perhaps going too far).

I think it could go either way. We know the Gree and Kwa both developed hypergate technology (albeit the Kwa called them Infinity Gates not Hypergates, but they were around at the same time so I assume it was basically the same thing). We also know the Rakatan hyperdrive technology was Force-based and that the first Republic engineers had to reverse engineer it to make it usable by the layman. The fact it was Force-based could indicate that it was not developed by a race of unliving machines, bringing me back to entechment.

If we look back at the Star Forge: how did it get its power? By draining people's life force. That's a pretty evil thing to do, and smells an awful lot like what the Ssi-Ruuvi did. So, at the very least, I would assume the Ssi-Ruuvi got their technology either (i) from the Rakata, or (ii) from the same source that the Rakata got theirs. In either case, the whole entechment process is an awful lot like what the machines in the Matrix did with the human race. It thus seems like something I could picture the Abominor doing (who, as we know, "ate" planets).

The Gree and Kwa? They I feel are probably a different process because (like the Aing-Tii), they seem to have purely Force-driven technology. Of course, the Gree-Kwa conflict was only in 100,000 BBY, which would mean the Sharu encountering the Celestials happened pre-Gree/Kwa, so it's possible even hypergates were developed after the appearance of the exiled machines.

On the bright side, I very much doubt anything will ever go that far back to categorically state whether technology can be traced back and back and back and back ad infinitum, so this is probably a moot po

 

Reading this thread actually makes me a bit sad. Because I think a lot more thought has been put into tying these threads together in here, than what we'll actually see. The end result will probably be some lame one-dimensional "villain" that DR thought would be kewl to use.

Of course, that's because LotF has really made me this cynical of the creative team. So hopefully I end up being pleasantly surprised.

 

Yeah... I confess I still won't be shocked if it's Waru inside the Maw, no.

I've been all for the arch enemies of the Vong showing up ever since the NEGtD though. That has largely been motivated by my desire to address the need (i) to have another worthwhile conflict for the younger generation to finally be the true heroes in, but which is of no relevance to Legacy so explain why no characters in that bring it up; and (ii) provide a threat without more Sith.

Of course, we have now been swamped in Sith, so the primary reasoning for me having long wanted the Silentium and Abominor to show up has recently been made irrelevant as the main threat just being an endless stream of more Sith has now been given the green light.

 

What I mean is, even if it was the Silentium and Abominor who were fighting in the Vong galaxy, we're not sure if those droid races actually were created in the Vong galaxy. They could have come from a 3rd galaxy, and just interfered in the Vong and Star Wars galaxies. Maybe they each have huge empires spanning dozens of galaxies between them. We're not sure the Vong galaxy is their home galaxy.

 

Ohh... interesting thoughts. It'd be funny if they actually originated in the main galaxy, left, found the Vong galaxy, then trashed it, causing the Vong to come to the main galaxy, only to now have run right back into the guys who'd trashed their home galaxy.

I tend to assume they originated in the Vong galaxy though, simply because it's a bit easier to have it that way. I also like the idea that you had this war between the Vong and the organic races that created the Silentium and Abominor, but that later on in history the Silentium and Abominor discovered the whole entechment-style process and basically pulled a Doctor Who and Cybermened themselves up into machines to try and get the advantage. The Vong however didn't do that, stuck to their guns, and beat the machines with their good old organic technology.

The idea that the Silentium or Abominor have travelled around the universe more than other races though is certainly feasible: as robots they don't exactly need to breathe or have any food. They just shoot themselves off, then go into shut down until they crash into something a few billion years later on the other side of the universe.

 

It's also interesting to note that Vuffi Raa, the Silentium droid that Lando befriended, was known as the "Butcher of Renatasia"... the homeworld of Daala. Coincidence?

 

I think we have a winner!

That is... awesome. Just... awesome. I cannot believe how well that makes this all fit together. The fact that they dug up a totally trivial world like that for Daala... and it turns out to be one connected to the only known Silentium? OMG.

Please, please, please all be connected.

Hmm... I've also just noticed the connection in Renatasia. Do R, E and A go together to make up anything special?

Wait a second, RE: Natasi: A...bominor!

I'm calling it now: Daala is a fembot agent in disguise!!

Maybe the Empire deliberately used the Maw to build the Death Star in order to form an alliance with the Abominor and obtain their technological weaponry to help prepare for the impending invasion by the Yuuzhan Vong!

 

This is so cool! It's like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, the Star Wars edition!

I love all the connections to the different groups and characters, especially Daala. Her sudden boost in status, coupled with the sudden surge in coverage of ancient cultures/weapons and different Force groups, makes you wonder if something like this is really being planned?

I like the "Ancient threats a result of the Force" idea. As if Palpatine & Anakin's existance broke a seal, and unleashed all these threats. I also like the Jacen/gardening reference.

My only nitpicks are:

1) While the weird/mystic vibe and expansion on relatively unknown races could provide a nice twist, I think another "big war story" would turn a lot of fans (not me though) off.

2) The team up of all the Force sects. Good idea, but it'll never happen.

THat's just nitpicking though. I still think the idea is great, and want to see it happen.

 

I would just like to say that this theory is awesome. It puts everything from FOTJ in a new and amazing perspective, gives the Yuuzhan Vong a reason for staying around (and a possible forerunner to their next act of redemption... helping terraform planets in Legacy ruined by the war they caused), AND gives marginalized characters like Lando and the droids to shine once more!

It adds depth and shows thought to an already mythic universe in a very mythic story.

If Del Rey were to follow through on this, I'd love them forever!


...I apologize for this ranting, but this thread really just blew me away.

 

Yeah, if the Silentium did show up it would suddenly give Lando quite a purposeful role. It would also be rather interesting to see him caught between his old loyalties to Vuffi Raa (and vice versa) with their loyalties to their own races. To have something about Lando working with Vuffi to stop the Silentium from exacting punishment on the younger races for their blind ignorance for freeing the Abominor would be very interesting to see. When did we last get to see Lando as the hero?

That's actually one of the reasons I really like the idea of the threat being the Abominor. It would be more of a "Countdown to Doomsday" situation than an actual war as such. If the heroes don't stop the doomsday machine caged in the Maw from breaking free of its millennia old prison in time, then the galaxy is doomed. Hence they'd need to stop it before it reached all out war, because by that stage it would be too late and the galaxy would suffer the same fate as the Vong's home galaxy by being devoured by the machines.

This could also provide an explanation for what happens to the new Sith forces in that they also recognise the threat in the Maw when they go there in Abyss, and so metaphorically "join forces" with the Jedi (either openly, or simply by virtue of them both being in the same place, at the same time, fighting the same battle, while taking pot shots at each other), but that in the end the Lost Tribe sacrifice themselves by throwing their forces at the threat to stop it... "redeeming" them in a roundabout kind of way.

It'd be an interesting reflection for Luke and his family too to see a whole Sith fleet throw their lives away to protect the galaxy and, as such, save the Force. It might also help them to come to terms with what Jacen did. The evil self-serving, hated Sith cultists becoming the... heroes? Even if they were also trying to kill the Jedi in the same battle, it'd be a very interesting lesson to see Luke and all reflect on.

"The Sith... saved us?"

I have to admit I find the idea unlikely, however much I wish to see it. The one group I really, really do want to see involved though are the Vong of Zonama Sekot, as I think watching them take revenge on the machines that have haunted their entire race's nightmares for thousands of years would be a very nice act of redemption... even if the majority of the galaxy's inhabitants (i) wouldn't be there to see it, and (ii) would probably still blame the Vong on the grounds "the machines were built by people from your galaxy in the first place".

It would be rather ironic though if all these Force cults are a massive red herring: throw out a kriff-load of random mystical groups in the first "trilogy arc" of the series, but then hit us with the spanner that, in fact, the threat isn't Force-users at all, but the complete antithesis of the Force: the unliving, i.e. machines.

Hmm... it would be massively ironic if the Mind Drinkers didn't turn out to be what it says on the tin (free incorporeal undead spirits) at all, but were in fact they were nothing more than projections beamed into people's minds by super advanced technology.