Naga Sadows Sith Armada, and the size of fleets during the Old Sith Wars

I remember the Rogue Planet number, over 20 million ships in the Galactic Registery. But that doesn't mean military armadas, it's more civilians. And that number is heavily outdated by AOTC anyway.

 

Revan took 2/3 of the Republic navy. 1/2 of what he took was obliterated at Malachor V I believe. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

But Revan returned with a greater force thanks to the Star Forge. The Republic was simply mauled. It was the greatest crisis the Republic ever had.

I suspect Naga Sadow spread his forces too thin. But nevertheless, his Sith Battle meditation cum illusion was having a great effect on the Republic. If not for that traitor...

 

Were capital ships less important back in the day, perhaps? There seemed to be swarms and swarms of small fighters at the Star Forge, over Onderon, and over Telos in the KoTOR games.

The docking bays that were seen in that game (Manaan, Telos, Korriban, Dantooine, Nar Shadda) seemed to be large enough for freighters and such.

Maybe Old Republic (And Sith) technology wasn't advanced enough for huge capital ship armadas?

Carnage

 

Well, capital ships like the Leviathan had grav well projectors. Fighters were useful as they dealt with low level targets. Again, fighters are useful when their shields are down. Moreover, we see in KOTOR many instances where capital ships played decisive roles especially at the battle of the Star Forge.

 

In TOTJ times, 4000yrs ago, shield generators were bigger and more bulkier to on-line than today. Turbolasers especially. Personally, I think it was ridiculous to say the Leviathan line of warships had just 2 measely turbos. They were novelties back then.

Fighters would have been more optimal.

The pre-Empire warfare was full monty starfighters. The warships were designed to repel fighters, look at all their anti-fighter defenses. Cap-to-cap assault was a full second after thought.

No wonder the Impstar blasted the Confeds away. A few salvos, and you wipe their brittle capitals off a Squib's scowl.

 

Well, capital ships like the Leviathan had grav well projectors.

Yeah, when IF EVER did the Republic lose that technology? I got the impression in the Outbound flight story that the Republic hadn't had that tech at the time, and that Thrawn later gives it to Palpatine.

What did I miss???

 

The collapse of the Republic 1000yrs before the ANH might have something to do with that.

Also, the Jedi were stupid pacifists. I won't be surprised if they actively suppressed the technology.

 

Its also possible its a completely different kind of grav-well projector, unlike the kinds we see in the PT-OT era. Advances in hyperdrive technology could have rendered it useless.

 

Well, such minimalism can be explained by saying that at that point in galactic history fleets were smaller and there were in general FAR less ships around. I personally have never had a problem with smaller numbers, but I know that some more rabid fans do.

--Adm. Nick

 

There is also the possibility than the Old Republic (circa 4,000-5,000 BBY) did not operate a very large Federal Navy. The Old Republic never struck me as a true Federal Government, more as a Confederation of systems. The Federal Navy was likely small due to the tendency of member-states to maintain their own militaries and the presence of an immense Jedi Order.

Also, Naga Sadow?s forces consisted of 100 Battleships; it is possible that the vessels operated by the Old Republic Navy were only Destroyers and Cruisers. The Republic vessels assaulting the Star Forge seemed relatively small and lightly armed, with only 2 Heavy Turbolaser Turrets apparently.

Also, the tendency of these vessels to be dotted with lighter weapons with higher rates of fire; like the broadside weapons on the Leviathan or the Harbinger seems to indicate a fleet with a Mission Profile targeting small vessels and freighters.

If Sadow?s Sith Armada was primarily heavily-armed Battleships and vessels like the Ravager, Leviathan, and the Republic Cruisers were heavily dependant upon fighter support the Sith could simply overwhelm the Republic Navy with firepower, not necessarily numerical superiority.

 

The hell'd I miss this thread...??

Evidence from various sources make it clear that the war definitely had a far greater scope than was believed even a year or two back. It's stated in The Sith War comics that the conflict had spread to the furthest corners of the galaxy (with the Jedi battling the Krath far from the axial intra-Hydian/Perlemian salient), which would necessitate colossal Republic ship-dispersement coverage, and on page 18 in the New Essential Chrono, one sentence reads: "The Mandalorians and their Basilisk war-mounts, augmented by Aleema's Sith illusions, executed lightning strikes to gather supplies and weaponry from outposts and shipyards." So clearly the loss of the 300 capital ships in the Foerost raid wasn't necessarily a huge loss for the Republic, but a series of successive raids (either stealing or crippling their ships) over a period of time would have been. Additionally, there was the purported Vento shipyard-sabotage, where the Sith forces transmitted misleading data to the Republic fleet commanders there, presumably causing another reasonable hypothetical loss in capability.

This gives rather ample support to the Republic being in possession of far more than a measly few hundred cap-ships, although it's possible that many of its most versatile workhorse front-liners were of a more mid-range class (see below).

It clearly handed them enough equity-leverage to survive the final Republic barrage and retreat toward Onderon, despite the continuous forced fallback actions; the NEC says that the Republic in-jumped enough reinforcements to retake the Koros system following Yavin IV, although how long it took them to mop up at Basilisk remains to be seen. Obviously the Mandos played possum at Dxun well enough to fool even nearby Onderonian observers; am hoping this specific issue somehow gets addressed hook-or-crook in the new KotOR monthly.

It was one-third of the total Republic fleet, but at least a good third of the pre-Revan flotilla (or thereabouts) got smoked at Malachor, with him taking 33.3% of the remainder with him into the Unknown Regions. Once the Star Forge was located, it all became moot, although I believe there is some dialogue somewhere in one of the games to the effect that a good chunk of the original, handbuilt 1/3-conting

 

Nebulon Ranger was 150m? EGVV never said it. It never gave measely ship lengths for a lot of entries, actually.

 

It hails from the Tales of the Jedi RPG book, that venerable George R. Strayton/Eric Trautmann evergreen resource.

The EGtVV is lacking in a whole LOT of areas, matter of fact.

 

If you look at the Endar Spire-class vessels in the cut scenes, they are comparable to Nebulon-B Frigates in size. Especially when compared to the escorting Old Republic fighters, I would guess between 200-400 meters for length. Also, due to their unique shape these vessels are very much smaller in tonnage than the Leviathan, which itself was apparently 600-700 meters in length.

The Endar Spire-class and the lesser Old Republic vessel class seen at Telos seem to be very small, fast, with no onboard fighter support, only 2-4 primary Turbolaser turrets, and maybe a dozen laser cannon turrets.

The Leviathan in contrast was covered in dual-turreted laser cannons, with power enough to undertake a rudimentary Base Delta Zero and set Taris on fire. The vessel also, apparently, had a Turbolaser array, onboard fighter squadrons, and a sizeable marine force.

It would seem the Republic vessels are Light Cruisers and Destroyers, whereas the Sith vessels are Heavy Cruisers, and the Ravager at minimal a Battlecruiser or even a true-to-form Battleship.

Also, the response force at Telos contained perhaps a dozen of the lesser capital ships.

The Old Republic, especially circa 4,000 BBY was not operating very many Heavy Cruisers that I can see. The loss of the Leviathan and Ravager types during the war must have represented a massive fiscal disaster for the Republic, as the Senate lacked the money to rebuild the fleet.

 

I believe the original EGTVV had the Nebulon Ranger.

A question one might ask is how is it possible that Revan took all the Republic's heavy ships and the Republic retained none? Moveover, at the Battle of the StarForge, Dodonna reportedly brought: all that was left of the Core fleets.

 

Well, remember the difference between stygian crytsal and artesian (sp) crystal cloaking shields.

The KOTOR era cloaking shields might have required some special material to operate which was later depleted, or someone developed an effective countermeasure to Leviathan type gravity wells.

 

This could be, and it's clear from sources like Outbound Flight that the Republic has not been in possession of this type of technology for centuries -- all Republic characters in that book, fleet personnel and civilians alike, are repeatedly wogboggled and flabbergasted by the notion that this sort of tech even exists, and that it could be scientifically feasible. Very likely, the means of producing this technology was utterly lost to the ages quite some time ago; perhaps during the New Sith Wars, and obviously the Republic itself has had very little incentive overall to re-reseach such tech over the last 10 centuries, due to the less congested strategic situation.

That tracks rather well with what we're told on Onderon in the second game, that the Senate's purse-strings were getting pulled tighter than ever, right to the breaking-point, with the Telos project nearly bankrupting the Republic.

Yup, that was roughly my train of thought on that one; slightly smaller than your typical Mon Cal, but representative of a shipwright era when they were still building them big-sized for big problems. Physically, from every visual cue to date, the largest-sized craft that we've seen constructed during the late Light and Darkness War era at Ruusan was no bigger than Lord Fopalla's "battleship"...thereby raising the question of subjective comparison. The Endar Spire class appears to be slightly more elongated in length, yet I'd suggest that this "battleship" class boasts greater firepower all around compared to the 3,956 BBY ships:

[image=http://starwars.wikia.com/images/d/d9/Woodenbattleship.JPG]

Additionally, there's also that painting in The New Essential Chrono to consider -- the one depicting various KotOR ships fighting alongside other Republic heavy-class ships during the Exar Kun war. It raises the possibility that the Ravager and Leviathan were in fact newer-build ships than the Spire and Harbinger, and that Revan cherry-picked the lion's share of which fleet ships defected with him into the Unknown Regions after Malachor. Which surviving fleet ships, anyways. (Matter of fact, there was some dialogue establishing that he'd gone and seeded loyal officers and crewers in key spots towards the end, I think.)

Given its size and starfighter capacity, the Leviathan seems similar in stature to the Kuat Imperial escort-carrier, the latter topping out at around 500 meters in keel. And it ce

 

Trying to stay healthy and keep on living life, long and short of it, you might say...posting in here has proved to be a bit of an energy-drain thing on me from time to time (cancer treatments since last fall).

That, and Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is sucking my life away right now. In a completely different way.

Here's a transcript of the scene from The Sith War TPB (the concluding pages of the first issue, I think):

A Sith fleet comm-operator comes up to Ulic:

Officer: Qel-Droma! We've just received a signal from Exar Kun. He is en route to Yavin Four.

Ulic: Good. Right on schedule. Beam the signal here.

(A hologram of Exar Kun materializes on the bridge of the captured Republic frigate.)

Exar Kun: Ulic! My half of the bargain goes forward! I have twenty Knights, ready to begin training under my instruction!

Ulic: Only twenty? I have two entire armies, Kun. And now I have three hundred of the Republic's newest warships.

Exar Kun: Well done, well done. We'll need all that armor for the engagements I have planned. Gather more ships while I train my Jedi!

Mandalore the Indomitable (to Ulic): I've got the codes. The ships are ours. We can leave at once for Coruscant.

Exar Kun: Coruscant? What's this about Coruscant? That's the seat of the galactic government!

Ulic: I am attacking Coruscant at once. The Republic Fleet has been alerted to our presence here. We have led them to expect more terror-attacks on shipyards and military outposts. Therefore, the correct move is to attack Coruscant..at once.

Exar Kun: Fool! You'll jeopardize my whole plan! We must build slowly...add to the forces...then we will attack together.

Mandalore: I don't know who you are, but Ulic and I can handle Coruscant. The Mandalore clans are the best fighters in the galaxy...we don't wait for a few Jedi.

Exar Kun: I can see that no appeals of mine will change your mind. Very well, Qel-Droma. Prove your manhood if you mu

 

There are times where I wonder whether Jedi Battle Meditation could really rally even the smallest force to victory. The Sith definitely outnumbered the Republic at Rakata Prime, and yet.. they lost... We didn't even see a single of those Leviathan class warships blowing up though.

But the Republic Navy was most certainly in a terrible shape by the time of Rakata Prime. Or was it because the developers wanted to portray the Republic a la Rebel Alliance?

 

(Wow, the system's finally letting me post in this thread again...go me.)


Think you're right about that (re: the Leviathan-thing)...even in the Light Side course of events, when she starts using her BM to assist the Republic capital ships in breaking through the Star Forge defensive-cordon, we still do not glimpse any Leviathan losses there. Although as far as its effectiveness goes, nine times out of ten it proves its worth -- Oppo Rancisis contributed to the outcome of the Stark Hyperspace War onboard one of the Trade Fed light freighter command ships; later during the Battle of Saleucami, it's when Sora Bulq murders Rancisis that the tide finally turns against the Republic forces there.

Then again, it's clear that Bastila likely attempted to meditate the Endar Spire engagement over Taris; the crucial mitigating factor there being the fact that the fleet was forced out of hyperspace unexpectedly over the planet and ambushed. It makes one wonder about its potency in a situation of extreme duress, when the onset of battle isn't of the user's choosing or anticipation. Keeping a relatively safe distance from the action appears to be a key ingredient in its success -- Odan-Urr and Memit Nadill during the Unification Wars, Master Arca in low orbit over Onderon, et al. Even being hunkered aboard a relatively decent-sized and well-shielded capital ship didn't offer much in the way of staving off the fleet's destruction, as Bastila discovered.

Segueing into the greater state of the Republic Navy as of the Battle of the Star Forge, yes, there's definitely that whole "Rebel Alliance"-vibe going on there, intentionally. Among the many other parallels to the OT, the Republic's sorry-ass shape after 10 years of nonstop warfare is nowhere better illustrated than in the example of its naval strength; with the abovementioned severe lowball downgrading of their "line" classes in favor of smaller, more flexible strike groups, as we see during the latter days of 3,956 BBY. With the government virtually encysted away in the Core Regions, new types of standardization, maintenance, and deployment to cover those few areas still under nominal Republic control would be pro forma, and you'd have to assume those few large-scale reserve battle groups still operational recalled for the defense of Coruscant and other key systems.

It's not made explicitly clear in the games, but there's a question as to how deeply the Sith had already penetrated the Deep Core zones by the war's final days -- Malak and Revan stole a major Republic fleet during their attack on the Foerost shipyards, but whether they held them or not isn't mentioned. Also, the subjugation of prime agricultural worlds like in the Ruan system (some nineteen strong) would put a major crimp in both the Republic's civilian and military supply-logistics...an army travels on its stomach, after all. And from the dialogue in the first game, the government was virtually on its knees, primed for collapse; the situation even five years hence would see the Republic likewise poised for disintegration one month after the second game's events.

Something we can infer from the data given is a timeline:

1. The Mandalorian Neo-Crusaders are defeated once and for all at the Battle of Malachor V. The Republic masses an armada ten times the size of the Mandalorian force there, with appoximately proportionate fielded ground-troop strength. Yet, for all of this, the Mando'ade chew right through the Republic ranks, the tide only turning with the activation of the Mass-Shadow Generator.



2. Revan takes one-third of the surviving Republic fleet with him and departs into the Unknown Regions, Malachor V being "right on [its] doorstep." They're gone for many months.



3. In the year 3,959 BBY, Malak and Revan -- now full-fledged Sith Lords -- arrive in the Deep Core and "liberate" a massive number of capital ships from the Republic's shipyards at Foerost. Not long after this battle, their forces are sufficient in strength to mass a

 

It is probable that the Mandalorians were more savage in their attacks and perhaps even more coordinated. They had many brilliant tacticians, even Canderous was noted for his tactical abilities. Possibly also because the Mandalorians put more firepower into the hands of a single warrior compared to the Republic. Heck, the Basilisk is probably more well armed than the Republic fighters.

From the way you put it, it looks like the Republic was in worst shape than the GFFA was even under the Yuuzhan Vong invasion. Mutiny in the ranks, collapse of discipline, loss of strategic points, commanders like Saul Karath and Revan who knew Republic tactics well.. I guess, the Republic very nearly imploded. KOTOR II successfully conveyed this feeling to a great extent.

 

That definitely seems to be the conveyed sense from both games, politically if not militarily -- with Cal Omas's reorganization of the government, he was juggling and reshuffling several major disparate, oftentimes squabbling, powers, but also bringing Republic/Rebellion's old Imperial Remnant adversary into the fold. There was a commonality at work: ain external enemy that both sides were forced to deal with, or die. The Empire itself was founded upon a synthesis of Republican and Sith dsoctrine, and yet reconciliation was in fact possible, decades hence.

The Old Republic following the Mandalorian Wars was fighting openly against the Sith themselves, and pulling the galaxy back together again meant recovering lost Republic territory, most often by via military means, and not in reaching out diplomatically to their foe in an attempted political rapprochement. Chunks that were lost were lost for good, unless the Republic were to ultimately win back the day, and there would simply be no negotiation with Malak or Revan -- it was winner-take-all.

Another key point of comparison between these two situations is the nature of the respective military units during the nadir-point of each conflict -- the New Republic Defense Force was (effectively) spread across the lion's share of their space with comparatively little coordination during the Vong invasion; the Old Republic's equivalent fleet groups during the Second Sith War were in a similar predicament, albeit with a centralized command node still intact (Coruscant), and with at least a modicum of organized direction and C&C, as we see during the Battle of the Star Forge. The other big question that arises is a comparison between fleet strengths...folks like Garm Bel Iblis began taking command over various units and striking out independently from NR oversight. We don't hear of such occurrences taking place during the ancient era, but that of course doesn't necessarily rule them out. Indeed, it's fair odds that such actions did take place at least once in awhile, as per real-world precedent.

Too, the Senate during the Darth Malak crisis served to effectively glue the Republic together, but until Omas took office, the NR was hard put to consolidate much more than a token force prior to Ebaq 9. Had Coruscant fallen during the early days of the Jedi Civil War, things would've been substantially different, although presumably enough outlying fleet groups might have kept clear of devastation to nucleize a core of guerrilla resistance. We don't have a firm count on how many strategic overfleets the ancient Old Republic maintained, but one passage from The Freedon Nadd Uprising #1 gives us some insight: During a news broadcast, a Coruscanti anchor mentions (in relation to the second Onderonian rebellion) that "[the] Senate has agreed to dispatch the fleet to quell the unrest on Onderon, a world only recently admitted to the Republic."

When we actually glimpse this fleet a page or two later, in one panel there are an even 49-50 ships visible -- large-scale capital ships, destroyer or heavy-cruiser class vessels (one ship in the foreground boasting at least 12 major turbolaser emplacements, along with what could be missile/torpedo arrays), transports, etcetera. More than one ship in those issues seemed to be intended as primary "line" cruisers, although judging from the visual evidence, the Republic's armaments-programme didn't equip their biggest ships with what your average Mk. I Assault Frigate -- a bloody escort vessel -- would receive millennia later. Though too, Interdictor ships like the Leviathan (600 meters, 20 quad-laser cannons, 4 turbolaser batteries and 2 ion cannons) seem to equal, or even surpass, the technical specs of Clone Wars craft like the Sienar Immobilizer 418 (800 meters, 20 GX-7 quad-laser cannons), and each features similar gravitic-well projectors and, presumably, tractor-beam capability.

Given the overall context of the broadcast and Onderon's fair distance out into the Mid Rim (further still

 

"Up."