Nagai-Tof War: The forgotten war? [Very Minor Mindor Spoilers]

This topic has been approved by Rogue_Follower.

Has most everyone, aside from the writers of the Essential Chronologies, forgotten this war even in the GFFA itself? Shadows of Mindor continues this trend. Luke is called the hero of Yavin, Endor, and Bakura, but nothing is mentioned about, say, Saijo. And this is a fairly important war; the Rebels had a truce at Bakura, but only on a very limited basis, whereas against the Tof, the new Alliance of Free Planets formed a much longer-lasting alliance with the Empire (or at least one faction thereof; I'm not sure of this).

You think it'd get a lot more mention.

 

I sort of wonder about this, that is the Empire joining with the Nagai and the Alliance. At the meeting before the Battle of Saijo, we see, at most, three stormtroopers. And Ackbar says something like, "Now, I know most of you are familiar with the planet Saijo, one of the worlds on the rim of the galaxy. One of the earliest battles between our people and you Nagai was fought there...just as it had previously been the site of some of the bloodiest and bitterest disputes between us when some of those here still supported the Galactic Emperor, and the rest were in Rebellion against him."

So I suppose that could be referring to the Empire as a whole, but later in the comic we see Lumiya attempting to ally herself with Sereno. Since we know that other Imperial turncoats are on the Rebel's side (Maggie and Trif), there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of evidence that the Empire, even a small faction of it, actually allied with the Rebels against the Tof. In fact, it seems more likely that the Empire was in the process of negotiating with the Tof before they were defeated at Saijo.

 

I think it's exactly the opposite way around; Lumiya herself jumped ship to the Tof, because she saw them as her best means to revenge and power, while the Empire/the Imperial forces Lumiya commanded (whichever is true) decided the Tof were way too dangerous and were willing to join forces, even temporarily, to take them out.

We need someone who has the issue in question and is willing to scan...

 

I have the issue, and Lumiya only joins the Tof because the Nagai have decided to join the Alliance. The implication is more that Lumiya/The Empire is trying to negotiate with the Tof to attack the Rebels.

From 107:

Sereno: Lady Lumiya... Truly, we cannot adequately express our gratification...at your having forsaken your Nagai comrades and joined yourself to our cause.

Lumiya: No thanks are necessary, Prince Sereno. I vowed to Darth Vader, my old master, that I would lay down my life for the destruction of Luke Skywalker and the Alliance of Free Planets. The Nagai were only useful to me so long as they seemed likely to fulfill that end. Now that they've allied themselves with Skywalker, well...

Then, they're interrupted by the Rebel/Nagai infiltration party, blah blah blah.

It seems pretty clear that Lumiya has only abandoned the Nagai, not necessarily her own Imperial forces. I guess the comic could be implying that Lumiya has totally abandoned the Empire, but there's no concrete evidence in the comic itself. The implication seems to be more that Lumiya/The Empire have abandoned the Nagai and are now trying to join with the Tof.

The only indication that the Empire or some faction of the Empire has joined the Rebels is during the briefing before Saijo. And there isn't really any indication there either except for a few pictures of stormtroopers at the briefing before the Battle of Saijo. And since we know that Maggie and Trif were former Imperials, it can be inferred that these guys are turncoats as well.

EDIT:

From the same issue, when they are on Saijo, Leia says, "Let's face it...those of us here--former Imperials, former Rebels against their Empire, Mandalorians, Zeltrons, Droids and Nagai--are probably the only beings in this entire sector...maybe on all of Saijo...who haven't been either killed, enslaved or enlisted by the Tof battle machine."

There's another stormtrooper standing around in that scene, but the wording, "former Imperials" seems to imply turncoats like Maggie and Trif rather than straight-up Imperials.

Later in the comic from Den Siva: "Perhaps not Solo. But you've been far more forgiving of your other enemies than you are toward us Nagai...Fenn's staff pilots...Trif and Maggie were once Imperials, yet they remain unchallenged. I believe your resentment of Commander Knife affects your view of our entire race!"

Once again, the implication seems to be more that these Imperials are no longer Empire soldiers. That they are simply former Imperials, no longer fighting for the Empire or Lumiya. And it's probably not an issue of "Oh the Empire doesn't exist anymore because of the defeat at Endor!" because we've seen plenty of post-Endor issues before this one that include the Empire specifically, and they aren't called "former Imperials". (I'm thinking of #84, #88, and #92)

 

Since you have it on hand, would you be willing to post Ackbar's exact words?

 

Sure.

Luke Skywalker thinking: Tempers are fraying and I'm not surprised, considering what's at stake here, and how small our chances of succeeding--at this mission Admiral Ackbar and Mon Mothma assigned us.

Flashback to Ackbar at the meeting: We must put aside our personal feelings and grudges...it is our only hope. Now, I know most of you are familiar with the planet Saijo, one of the worlds on the rim of the galaxy. One of the earliest battles between our people and you Nagai was fought there...just as it had previously been the site of some of the bloodiest and bitterest disputes between us, when some of those here still supported the Galactic Emperor, and the Rest were in Rebellion against him.

The world itself is sparsely populated, and its inhabitants have raised only the most primitive of structures...but it has ever thrived as a spaceport and a trading post among the outer worlds.

Mon Mothma: Since we learned of the Nagai incursions there. Long before we accepted them into our Alliance, we have had our finest intelligence agents in the outer worlds keeping track of all the comings and goings on Saijo...and we now know. With absolute certainty, that neither the natives not the Nagai are in powere there. As we should perhaps have expected, the Tofs have crossed the Galactic Rim, coming--as Commander Knife tells us they've been wont to do in the past--in pursuit of the Nagai.

Ackbar: And the Supreme Commander of all their forces on this expedition has made Saijo his personal base of operations of the Crown Prince of Tof, heir to the throne of their entire civilization.

Random Rebel #1: Their prince? They sent him here? Are they crazy?!

Random Nagai: Hardly. It is a custom among their people. Unlike your Alliance, with its elected leaders, or the appointed military command of the Nagai, the Tofs are ruled by a hereditary monarchy. That is part of their decadence, but they've always believed that by making a military leader of their heir they teach him responsibility, and imbue his future subjects with respect for his heroism.

Ackbar: There can be no mistake about this. Their prince is there. His presence was reported to us by our most trusted and skilled agent, whose identity is a closely guarded secret, even from our own people. We must take this chance and work together! If we allow personal bitterness to overcome us, and the Tofs gain a foothold in our galaxy...they will not leave enough for the survivors to bother fighting over.

Then Ackbar makes some comments about Lando leading the Alliance fleet, and then back to the battle on Saijo.

 

Thanks.

I dunno, I'm still getting the implication that from the OOU POV of Mary Jo Duffy and all the other Marvel crew, the Empire isn't really the Empire anymore what with this greater menace to fight against. There might still be that remnant, but with Palpatine dead, no real "Empire." And so that translates into Ackbar's speech. We have to take into account when it was written.

I dunno, it could go either way. Wookieepedia seems to agree with me, but we both know that's not really worth spit. We need some confirmation one way or the other.

 

For what it's worth, the Star Wars Gamer 1 article about the Nagai makes no mention of the Empire or any sort of possible alliance with the Empire.

From that article, "The war raged until a showdown on Saijo, which Tof Prince Serno used as his personal base. The combined Alliance, Mandalorian, and Nagai army struck hard at Saijo, crippling the Tof ships and forcing a surrender."

The only mention of the Imperials in the article is earlier, "Lumiya and Siva killed twenty captured Rebels on Kinooine, a barren world on the fringe of the galactic perimeter. An Alliance strike team fought the Nagai at Kinooine, but an entire Nagai invasion fleet arrived, aided by Imperial remnants."

So yeah, even if the Imperials did ally with the Rebels at Saijo, it apparently only included Imperial remnants and not the greater Empire. I still say that the implication is that those present are simply turncoats, since Lumiya herself is trying to ally with the Tof.

Still, without some sort of OOU implication, and with the greater EU in mind, it seems much more likely, especially IU, that the Empire had no real truce/agreement with the Rebel/Nagai forces at Saijo. Especially since the only presence of Imperials in the comic are a few stormtroopers standing around who are lumped together with Maggie and Trif, who are clear Imperials turned Rebels according to #99.

Also, even taking into account when this was written, we have plenty of other comics by Duffy that feature a strong Imperial presence, especially when Lumiya is involved. Also, the editor around that time, Ann Nocenti, wrote a comic in which the "recently defeated Empire" return to a world and reconquer it after Luke leads a small uprising following the Battle of Endor (#89). The Empire is clearly powerful and trying to retake their territory, at least in the head editor's eyes.

It's also somewhat telling that we have an issue after Endor (#84) where Imperials are fighting on a world and the writer tells us that the Empire is still thriving under the rule of Palpatine's governors. ("Meanwhile, on the opposite side of the ruins, the Falcon's arrival has not gone unnoticed by those 'Humanoid life-forms'--an Imperial landing force...continuing the dead Emperor's eternal search for greater wealth and power, by order of his Imperial governors!") With that in mind, Ackbar's speech still seems to point to those present as simply Imperials turned Rebels like Maggie and Trif.

 

Right, but 84 and 89 don't equal 107. For starters, no big olive-colored space pirates.

 

The thing we need to remember with the Nagai/Tof war is that it we don't have many details on it is because Marvel ended so abruptly. 107 was bantha fodder, with what was a very interesting story arc that deserved more time was finished far too quickly, not to mention a pump-up Luke Skywalker.

I would have liked to see it go on longer, perhaps the treaty between the Alliance and the Nagai, Lumiya's re-emergance from the shadows

 

To my mind, the Marvel storyline is one of many that needs a one-shot, or even a short story, to wrap up its storylines.

Other stories with this ailment are:

GODV
X-Wing Alliance
and the Starfighter series

Shouldn't be too hard, honestly. Since it's clear that they're not going to ever by continued as intended.

 

Luceno would be perfect for this, he's great at connecting disparate canon.

 

Thing is, though, I doubt LFL would ever dedicate a whole novel to wrapping up each of those storylines...not enough people know about them.

 

The novel doesn't have to be dedicated to this. It could be about a period a little later, and he could have some character (let's say Bey as I want him back badly) explaining things to us.

 

This is all very interesting...but as to the original point

The answer is clearly "yes".

or, at least, forgotten the scale.

I think with the treatment thus far, it is not being banished from canon...but it's impact on the galaxy...it's lasting impact on relations between any one group...it's characterizations...are all to be view with spectacles rooted in the "mainline".

Yavin, Endor, Bakura...the absurd notion of putting Bakura in such auspicious company should tell you about the intention here.

Nagai-Tof is and has been for sometime, relegated in overall impact to something akin to an "insider" short story or a hyperspace filler...it's galactic "impact" has been redressed to a regional skirmish on the far reaches of the galaxy while the real meat of the universe was pressing on toward the proper formation of the NR and the fracturing of the Empire. Even it's position and extent in the chronology has been squeezed and shifted to suit the novels. Yes folks..."Truce of Bakura" gets a predominate spot in setting the timeline to the marvel.

So much for my early childhood.

But the truth is, since the early days of the novels...since Truce at Bakura...it's been accepted (at least by me and people in my neck of the woods) that the marvels were going to be subject to revisionist thinking...and so it's been...and so it must as it stands so far outside the rest of "canon".

I celebrate the effort to keep in in the chronology...and the essential guides...but as to the greater narration of the galactic story...it was made a minor footnote long ago.

Of far more concern is the genuine lack of reference to Dark Empire...and some authors went out of their way to mention that! And it was written as part of the "canon"!

GODV is very much like Nagai-Tof...there...but not what those stories would exclaim them to be.

Videogame canon is what it is...a mixed bag.

 

Well some of Marvel was so out there that it's sort of embarrassing. Take Jaxxon for instance, and Crimson Jack, and the fake Obi-Wan

 

word.

 

Fake Obi-Wan isn't Marvel. And don't pretend you weren't choked up by, "Just an impostor who came to love the part, I only hope I played it well."

 

Yes, how can you not love Fake Obi Wan?

The best part being the implications that Fake Obi Wan, is in fact Alec Guinesse?

 

Don't forget the jungle surface of Bespin.

 

Maybe he meant Don-Wan Kihotay?

 

The Marvels may contain a lot of oddities, but many of them only seem odd when looked at twenty - thirty years later, from someone who was raised in a very different post-1991 Expanded Universe. At the time of their publishing, things such as Jaxxon, Crimson Jack, and Don-Wan Kihotay were very much in the spirit of Star Wars. The original film took heavy inspiration from space serials like Flash Gordon, and that was the spirit that the Marvel series was rich in. What's really impressive about the Marvels, though, is that many of the stories written in that very same spirit have stood the test of time and continue to be fantastic stories today, such as the six-issue arc that took place on the Wheel with Simon Greyshade, Darth Vader's search for the name of the pilot who destroyed the Death Star and his encounter with Valance the Bounty Hunter, the Shira Brie storyline, and much of Mary Jo Duffy's run with the Nagai-Tof War. Also, the Luke vs. Lumiya fight in Issue 96 may still very well be the best lightsaber duel in the history of the EU. And Crimson Jack deserved props for being the very first EU character, ever.

And if David Michelinie missed the fact that Bespin was a gas giant, so what? The editor should have caught that.

The thing about the Nagai-Tof War is that Mary Jo Duffy had to conclude that entire plotline in one issue. In Issue #91 of Star Wars Insider, she stated that she didn't find out the series was ending until production on Issue #106 had already finished. It's fun to speculate on whether or not Dark Empire would have attempted to pick up where Issue #107 left off, if it had been published my Marvel, like it was originally going to be. 'Specially 'cause Archie Goodwin would have been on board.

As for the Nagai-Tof War in-universe --- I'll admit that I had a fanboy desire to see some things from the Marvels referenced in Mindor, like the war, and Luke's attempted training of Kiro and Flint... the latter I didn't care at all about having been left out, but I'll admit that I found it a bit-odd (in an in-universe perspective) that Luke was the hero of Bakura, but not the Nagai-Tof War. Giving Bakura such importance reminds me of Han being tortured by Admiral Daala in Jedi Search... where he thought that the Truce at Bakura was one of the most important things to tell her, simply because there wasn't much else published material that was considered part of canon that Han could have told her about.

I, too, would love to see some sort of story, in any medium, that links the end of the Nagai-Tof War to the beginning of The Rebel Opposition, telling the tale of the transition from the Alliance of Free Planets to the New Republic, the shift in focus from the Nagai & Tofs to Imperial Warlords, etc, etc. If X-Wing: Rogue Leader had had a coherent plot, it could have done something like that.

 

That's interesting, if Marvel morphed into DE who know what might have happened there.

Obvious question: Why did Marvel end so abruptly?

 

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