Obi-Wan Kenobi = avatar of the Force?

Time and again in the saga we are told that Anakin Skywalker is the physical manifestation and embodiment of the Force; essentially the Force's direct response to the emmergence of Palpatine on the galactic scene. With the culmination and fulfillment of the prophecy in ROTJ, we see the Force's intentions fully manifest and evil destroyed forever.

That being said, also time and again in the saga, we see repeated examples of some special emphasis by the Force on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Far more than any other character in the saga, including Yoda and Luke, it seems the Force used Obi-Wan Kenobi in it's grand scheme of fulfilling the prophecy and getting from point A to point C, using Obi-Wan as point B.

There are some interesting philosophical and metaphysical implications about this notion if it is indeed true. The entire notion of fate versus free will and destiny. In many debates on the forums, the question of blind luck comes into play.
Somehow, in virtually impossible situations, Obi-Wan comes out completely unscathed. Proponents of random chance chalk it up to mere luck. But suppose some greater and deeper meaning were infact the case. It's entirely possible the Force dictates all events and outcomes in the galaxy according to some pre-ordained grand design. Granted, this makes the universe a far more dull place with nothing at stake, or no risk, but some of the experiences and circumstances Obi-Wan encountered in the films suggest The Force favored him somehow.

Take for instance order 66. Obi-Wan was the first character Sidious wanted dead. Surprise was total and complete, as it was with all other Jedi-Master Generals. Not only should the concussion from the ordinance killed Obi-Wan, but miraculously, it didn't, and even more impressive, the damn FALL he took into the water. It was borderline ridiculous. That should have killed any human being.

Or as another example, what some people enjoy pointing out, the battles against Darth Tyrannus; where Obi-Wan should have died on both occasions but once again last minute intervention prevented it.

There are many other examples of this "divine" intervention on behalf of Obi-Wan, but there are also many examples of some sort of special ability, or plot device, that the Force seemed to manifest through Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Consider that before any character, Obi-Wan percieved and sensed Palpatine coming on the galaxy, but Qui-Gon chastised him, instead of commending him and telling him to meditate on the mystery. Or the fabled Force ghost manifestation, in which Obi-Wan is the first of only two characters in the history of the Universe able to manifest their identity in physical form.

We see that Han Solo subscribed to the "smugglers luck" idea until meeting Obi-Wan and Luke, who changed his perceptions.
It is quite obvious that Obi-Wan saw right through Han Solo's tough guy facade, and of all the pilots in the bar, chose Han because he percieved the good in him waiting to come out.

So is it possible then that Obi-Wan acted as a catalyst for the Force's will in the galaxy, and was somehow distinguished and set apart from everyone else by the Force?


Darth Vader- " Obi-Wan IS here, The Force is with him."

 

Nice very nice. I think you may have hit Obi Wans purpose right on the head...

 

Also....though this statement has more bearing on the actors performance than anything else, consider Mace's "May the Force be with us all," versus Ben Kenobi's " The Force will be with you...always."

I don't know about anyone else but, when Mace said it, it didn't resonate or have that magical, mystical feel, it felt hollow and empty, but when old Ben Kenobi says " The Force will be with you.... always," he MEANT it. It resonated and you could feel his conviction, like he was speaking a simple truth. It was like he was saying "I" will be with you always. And we know Obi-Wan was always with Luke.

 

As if most Jedi used the Force as a tool and Kenobi lets the Force use him.

 

Maybe you're right. Actually, I like this explanation. I've always found it, well, ironic but somewhat misplaced from the viewpoint of the Saga that Obi-Wan, of all people, would tell Han that "from my experience, there's no such thing as luck." After all, how often did Obi-Wan get away alive during the prequels because weapons of someone else happened to be within reach after he'd lost his own, because his opponent who had practically beaten him made some entirely stupid mistake, or because Yoda just happened to come in?
Somehow it doesn't fit into a Saga where as a rule "nothing happens by accident". It makes a lot more sense to interpret it as Obi-Wan being somehow protected by the Force.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate, not that I even necessarily believe this, but what if Obi Wan was really the Chosen One? What if the prophecy referred to him, and NOT Anankin? After all, a case can be made that he was really the one that brought balance to the Force.

Within Obi Wan, there would be no Anakin to rise and fall, Luke would never learn of his Force potential, Luke would never meet Yoda, Vader would never be redeemed and ultimately would take Sidious' place as the Sith Master. In this argument, Obi Wan was the Chosen One with Anakin and Luke being naught but tools he used (or was provided) in order to fulfill the prophecy.

 

I know you were just playing devil's advocate with the Obi-Wan being the chosen one, and we all know that Anakin was certain the real Chosen one. However, Obi-Wan's story is truly amazing with the insane situations that he survived. I've been reading the Jedi Apprentice Series lately, and in parts in makes Obi-wan seem absolutely incredible. (I know, I know, it's EU, but It's interesting nonetheless.) Obi-Wan apparently didn't have the Midichlorian count or the experience of the other Jedi masters, but damn did he have some intangible working for him. I think he is right, there is no such thing as luck to Obi-Wan, there is only the force.

There has been alot of talk about Qui-Gon being the ultimate Jedi now, as he was the first one to be able to hold his conciousness after death, but I truly thing that Obi-Wan was the greatest Jedi of his Era. Anakin, Mace, Qui-Gon, Even Yoda....Blah. They were all either Dead, teetering on the bring of the dark side, or Meditating. Obi-Wan was always in the thick of things, facing impossible tasks, and almost always came out smelling like roses. My best description is that while the force was strong IN the others, the force was strongest AROUND Kenobi. There was no luck for him, there was only the force. Perhaps he was outright the most truly good character in the order. It seems with his compassion and possible attachments to Anakin (For one), Obi-Wan already knew in his heart that "Love is the answer to the Darkness".

To be truthful, I don't really have a point and probably havn't added much to the conversation, but there just isn't a good way for me to describe how incredible Obi-Wan actually is. I'm not just trying to Obi-Wan gush, but his abilities just amazed me time and time again, be it in the movies or in the EU.

Carnage

 

Interesting topic, one that is more about the Saga than ROTS.... moving to the Saga Forum.

 

I think Obi-Wan is watching the whole story rather than doing something.....I mean he is not the Chosen One but he is very close to Anakin the Chosen One

 

In epic storytelling, there is often a character that performs the function that Obiwan does. Whether Obiwan was used by the Force, or used by George Lucas (or both) is anyone's guess, but I believe that you are onto something with that. However, a catalyst sets things in motion, and Obiwan appears to be that which is set in motion by events, and a catalyst in a plot is often in the background and seems insignificant and lowly, such as R2 or Jar Jar...both characters that cause events to go in a drastically different direction.

Obiwan does not cause events, he is shaped by events. He is a steady rock during the course of events, and he rarely gets swept away by them as the hero does. Obiwan would be the concience of the epic, I believe, like Sam Gamgee in LOTR. He often senses danger before anyone else does, and tries to warn the other characters, is generally kind and good, has a definite sense of right and wrong, and is loyal to the hero (in this case until the hero becomes anti-hero). But Obiwan's roles change during the Saga. From companion and student, to master, to crazy old wizard, to ghost. Obiwan is definitely very important to the epic.

 

This is definately an interesting point of view, especially that R2, for the most part, IMHO, the story teller.

After all, as stated, Obi-Wan is essentially the fulcrum for the lever with two powerful Jedi.

I also have an idea that in many ways, Obi-Wan not only wanted to redeem Anakin through Luke, but used Luke's love (for the man who was once considered brother) to redeem himself of letting Anakin down.

I remember the rumors back in 2000 or so about the supposed love triangle story concerning Padme, Obi-Wan, and Anakin for making Anakin fall. It does come to play, when Anakin misinterprets Obi-Wan's presence was discovered on Mustafar.

Perhaps the term 'love triangle' could be interpreted that Obi-Wan loves both Anakin and Luke, and would do anything for both of them, even sacrificing himself. A long time before, Anakin loved Obi-Wan as a brother. And Luke, ultimately loved both men enough to help redeem the fallen father, through the love of the surrogate father.

Just an idea to discuss.

 

On the Official Site - starwars.com - the description under the "Becoming Obi-Wan" webdoc refers to Obi-Wan as the "the greatest Jedi of the saga". I think that description may provide some insight about how he is viewed by George Lucas. Of course, I've always considered the fact that the Force Theme is also Obi-Wan's Theme as a sign about how Lucas wanted us to view Obi-Wan's relationship to the Force.

 

Obi-Wan is not the avatar, it is and always was Anakin.
Obi-Wan just got help from the Star Wars gods along the way.

Did you ever think that the Force is just what Obi-Wan says it is?
"It's an energy field created by all living things."
The Force is just this energy field created by all living things. All living things like plants and animals. So non-sentient plants and animals are just doing what they're supposed to be doing in the Star Wars galaxy, but the sentient beings like Rodians, Tuskens, Naboo, Gungans, Hutts and Ewoks can become corrupted because they're supposed to know the difference between right and wrong. So my point is, do you think perhaps the Force has become unbalanced not because of Sidious' presence, but because the people have become corrupted? See most fans think that Sidious has some how made the Force unbalanced by just being there, but there were always Sith out there. No, it's not Sidious that has made the Force unbalanced, it is the people of the galaxy. They have become corrupted by greed and indifferent to the suffering of others. Indifferent to children born into bondage, indifferent to Tuskens that have had land stolen from them, indifferent to cloned children that have had half their childhood stolen from them and forced to become soldiers.

See Lucas did have a vision for Star Wars, at least I know he did when he made Return Of The Jedi, because of this dialogue between Vader and Sidious:

"I have felt him my master."
"Strange that I have not."

This dialogue that was planted in Return Of The Jedi 22 years ago had no meaning, but once Attack Of The Clones came out it started to speak volumes. The Emperor is losing his ability to use the Force, just like the Jedi were losing their ability to use the Force. When the Force is unbalanced or in darkness, the Sith's powers grow, but the Jedi's powers diminish. In Return Of The Jedi, the Force is balanced or in the light before Palpatine is even killed. When the Force is balanced or in the light, then the Sith start to lose their power to use the Force.

All the spiritual aspects of Star Wars come from the mouths of Jedi, however, they only believe in the Force, but others in the universe believe in gods. Now if you look at the Star Wars characters as being guided not by the Force but by gods then all the pieces start to fall into place.

"Oh but it this! Tis demunded by da gods it 'tis."

"I do believe they think I am some sort of god."

There is no throw away dialogue in Star Wars. Every piece has to be analyzed.

Notice as soon as the Jedi find out about the clones and decide not to put a stop to the egregious criminal activity on Kamino, then Anakin has his nightmare about his mother. Notice as soon as Boba Fett starts tracking Han and Leia then Luke has his vision of Bespin. Notice as soon as Luke says, "There is good in him," then Leia calms down because she has heard this before from a vision she had of Padme and Obi-Wan talking to each other before Padme died. Notice as soon as Luke and Vader cross sabers, then Chewbacca commandeers the AT-ST and the Rebels start to get the upper hand just long enough for Han to blow up the generator. Luke was made to see his friends suffer just long enough to make him bring out his saber, because the duel between him and his father was just to get Anakin to kill the Emperor.

Balance would not have been brought to the Force if Mace would of killed Palpatine. The Force was brought back into balance because the people care for one another agian, they fight for one another again in the form of a resistance against the Empire.

Source: Vanity Fair, February '05

"The interesting thing about Star Wars--and I didn't ever really push this very far, because it's not really that important --but there's a lot going on there that most people haven't come to grips with yet. But when they do, they will find it's a much more intricately made clock than most people would imagine."--George Lucas

Now Lucas threw out his trump card there, and I didn't know w

 

^What exactly does any of what was said immediately above have anything to do with the subject of this thread?

Anakin's the avatar? Obi-Wan got help from the Star Wars gods? They are both fictional characters, so Anakin doesn't have some grounding in "real" truth that other characters don't.

Believe what you want about Skywalker, but your view doesn't have any more basis than anyone else's based on the numerous and sometimes contradictory things that have been said by Lucas all the way.

By the way, no one was challenging the Chosen One stuff.

 

^I said Obi-Wan is not an avatar and the title of this thread is Obi-Wan Kenobi=avatar of the Force?
So why is my post so out of line?

There is not one time that Lucas contradicts what I'm saying. If there is then show it to me with the source. Does Lucas say that there are not Star Wars gods? No, in fact, two species in the movies believe in god(s). These characters are not having visions of the future and the past because they are so powerful with the Force. They are having visions of the future and the past because something is showing them the future and the past for a reason. Luke had to go Bespin but Yoda and Obi-Wan just didn't know it, and Anakin had to go to the dark side but Yoda and Obi-Wan just didn't know it. Even in death, Obi-Wan did not know the fate of the galaxy, but something did? What that something is, I really don't know. Is it Star Wars god(s)? I don't know, but it's not the Force. The Force is only an energy field created by all living things. If these characters are being guided by the Force then that means the Force is a sentient entity. But if it's a sentient entity, then why does it allow itself to be manipulated by the Sith. Notice how silly Jar Jar is. The jester told the audience 20 minutes into Episode I what was really going on in Star Wars. Jar Jar told the audience that Star Wars gods exist. Is it really that hard to believe? Star Wars is and always was mythology. It's not sci-fi like many believe, and the one thing all mythological stories have is god(s).

 

I don't know, maybe I'm missing the point of this thread, but an avator is a incarnation of a god. The word is kind of reserved for the Hindu faith and Western religions refer to an avator as an incarnation. Now, I never thought of Anakin as an avator because an avator knows they're an avator. Like Jesus knew he was an incarnation of God, and that's why they killed him. But see Anakin never knew he was an avator, and that's what makes Star Wars kind of cool. The reason Anakin is so angry is not because he's bad, it's because the Jedi are bad. The Jedi have become complacent and indifferent to the suffering of others. That's why Anakin is born a slave. To show the Jedi that there is great suffering in the galaxy, but the Jedi don't do anything about it. And then when the Jedi find what essentially amount to a slave factory on Kamino, they still do nothing about it. You really don't see the logic behind what I'm saying? Star Wars gods exist because if you notice when Qui-Gon tries to use the Jedi mind trick on Boss Nass to free Jar Jar, the mind trick doesn't work. Notice Nass ask Jar Jar a question, because the mind doesn't phase him because Qui-Gon was out of line in trying the use the mind trick when it came to the gods' laws. Boss Nass doesn't just say, "Jar Jar's life belongs to you," in some mindless drone's voice, no, he turns and asks Jar Jar a question. Boss Nass is fearful of the gods, so when Jar Jar answers the question, then Nass frees him because that is what is demanded by the gods. Jar Jar must serve out his life debt, just like Chewbacca.

The thing is I have to write out these big essays because there is no easy way to explain Star Wars, and if you don't see that there are Star Wars gods then you'll never see the story. See there are two stories going on in Star Wars. One story is that Anakin is born bad and there is only the Force, that's the obvious story and that's the one that Lucas kind of plays into when he talks about Star Wars, but then there is the story that's below the surface. This story is about the corruption and redemption of the people and their savior who's name is Anakin Skywalker who was given to the people by the gods. See Anakin never had to be redeemed because he never did anything wrong. That's why it was so important for Lucas to have Greedo shoot first. See if Han would of shot first he could of never been redeemed, but Anakin was only following his destiny to the dark side, a path that was laid out before him by the Star Wars gods.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm missing the point of this thread, but an avator is a incarnation of a god. The word is kind of reserved for the Hindu faith and Western religions refer to an avator as an incarnation. Now, I never thought of Anakin as an avator because an avator knows they're an avator. Like Jesus knew he was an incarnation of God, and that's why they killed him. But see Anakin never knew he was an avator, and that's what makes Star Wars kind of cool. The reason Anakin is so angry is not because he's bad, it's because the Jedi are bad. The Jedi have become complacent and indifferent to the suffering of others. That's why Anakin is born a slave. To show the Jedi that there is great suffering in the galaxy, but the Jedi don't do anything about it. And then when the Jedi find what essentially amounts to a slave factory on Kamino, they still do nothing about it. You really don't see the logic behind what I'm saying? Star Wars gods exist because if you notice when Qui-Gon tries to use the Jedi mind trick on Boss Nass to free Jar Jar, the mind trick doesn't work. Notice Nass just goes on like nothing happened and asks Jar Jar a question, because the mind doesn't phase him because Qui-Gon was out of line in trying the use the mind trick when it came to the gods' laws. Boss Nass doesn't just say, "Jar Jar's life belongs to you," in some mindless drone's voice, no, he turns and asks Jar Jar a question. Boss Nass is fearful of the gods, so when Jar Jar answers the question, then Nass frees him because that is what is demanded by the gods. Jar Jar must serve out his life debt, just like Chewbacca.

The thing is I have to write out these big essays because there is no easy way to explain Star Wars, and if you don't see that there are Star Wars gods then you'll never see the story. See there are two stories going on in Star Wars. One story is that Anakin is born bad and there is only the Force, that's the obvious story and that's the one that Lucas kind of plays into when he talks about Star Wars, but then there is the story that's below the surface. This story is about the corruption and redemption of the people and their savior who's name is Anakin Skywalker who was given to the people by the gods. See Anakin never had to be redeemed because he never did anything wrong. That's why it was so important for Lucas to have Greedo shoot first. See if Han would of shot first he could of never been redeemed, but Anakin was only following his destiny to the dark side, a path that was laid out before him by the Star Wars gods.

 

i would firstly imagine that the author of this thread is fimiliar with the works of joseph campbell, especially the hero with a thousand faces. if you're not familiar then you probably should become so. campbell asserts of course that there's always the hero and he always follows one of several paths that lead to the fulfillment of his destiny. now, avatars and anakins aside, campbell makes a specific extra place for characters in the myths known as "supernatural aide". in the odyssey that would be athena, in the story of gilgamesh it would be utnapishtim, or maybe enkidu. there are many other examples and many characters that fill them, but their role usually makes them somewhat invulnerable to the circumstances experienced by the heros or the more basic characters of the story.

in a sense, you could say that the "supernatural aide" characters are in a sense, avatars of destiny. as they come along essentially to help fulfill the actions/deeds of the hero, and generally speaking the protagonist would never get anywhere without their aide.

 

Yeah, I'd agree, Obi-Wan somehow taps into another level of the Force than other Jedi seem to. But, he also goes against it at times. I think there are times the Force may somehow influence him to do some things, but I think he may sometimes honestly wave off a no to it. He's the one who tells Qui-Gon "if you'd only go along with Council, you'd be on it by now..." inferring that Obi-Wan, at times, will go along with something just to get something. But when Anakins friendship with the Chancellor pays off, Obi-Wan is quick to point it out, as if he would never do something like that. Now saying that, maybe Obi-Wan had done some things in his past with an alterior motive, but knows of the perils of doing that and maybe was now conveying that to Anakin? Interesting. So through some experience, his advice comes. And then, in Episode 4 he tells Luke that the Force guides you but will also obey your commands. The Jedi would say the Force guides you. The dark Jedi would say the Force is there to obey you.

I think in the time between Episode 3 and 4, Obi-Wan learns more about the Force and what is right about it. Moreso, I'd imagine he learns what the Jedi had wrong about it, and also what those Dark Jedi like Sidious, had right about it. A new balancing point. Maybe this is why he is the first Jedi to become one with the Force by choice alone, not from the blade of the lightsaber.

I had better watch the movies again to be sure.

Isurus the White

 

This whole concept "avatar of the force" reminds me of the healer Sai Baba.

By the way, I wouldn't say "Obi-Wan = Avatar of the Force", but instead "Obi-Wan = Avatar of the Light Side of the Force".

 

I don't think that I agree with this belief that Obi-Wan was the "avatar of the Force". I'm sorry, but it doesn't really resonate with me. It sounds like some advocacy for Obi-Wan as the "ideal" Jedi Knight. And to me, he was far from ideal.

 

I agree. He was just put in unusual situations and made the most of them.

 

Very nicely said, joshuavance. I don't think anyone could've said it better.

Obi-Wan truely is an avatar of the Force, in my opinion. He dedicated his whole life to what he thought was morally just. When things got tough, he stuck with what he believed in.

 

You can say that about other Jedi Knights, as well.

 

I don't think that Obi-Wan is the avatar of the Force but I also don't think he's just another Jedi Knight. I'd say the only person who could come close to being called the avatar of the Force would be Anakin though even that I feel is off as Anakin isn't the Force incarnate he was just created rather directly by the Force.

I also wouldn't say that Obi-Wan is the ideal Jedi Knight as even he says that he failed in training Anakin, which he did. If he was the ideal Jedi Knight he wouldn't have been in a position to seek redemption for his failure with Anakin via his training Luke because the "ideal" Jedi Knight wouldn't fail. Mind you Obi-Wan is my favorite character in the entire Saga and EU second only to Luke, but he's far from perfect which makes him all the more interesting because though he's not an ordinary Jedi he doesn't have the ancestory of the Force like the Skywalkers following Anakin do.

-Son of the Suns