Obi-wan Kenobi: "Liar or From A Certain Point Of View?"

This thread has spun out of the "Was Obi-wan Lucky Or That Good?" thread. Did Obi-wan tell Luke the truth as he saw it, or did he tell a fib. While this would belong in the Saga forum, I'm going to place this here based on what we saw happen in ROTS.

 

Probably after things settled down and he recalled these words... "The boy you trained, gone is he... consumed by Darth Vader", he considered it to be truth.

Not that he didn't bend the truth from time to time... "I'm getting to old for this type of thing". I think he had plenty of fight left in him but wanted to appeal to Luke's good nature.

 

I think, to a certain degree, that both OBW and Yoda told Luke what he needed to hear. How do you think Luke would've reacted if he heard that Vader indeed was his father? A son's relationship to his father can be very strong, and OBW most likely knew this. I guess you can discuss whether he lied or not, but did he do the right thing - I think so. Anakin was dead, and had been dead for twenty years. If Luke, with no Jedi training, had gone running after Vader , to see who his father really was, he would have been an easy picking!

 

Kenobi lied. As simple as that, he knew Luke couldn't have handled knowing that his father was the most evil man in the galaxy. From a certain point of view yes, but its a stretch thing that Kenobi could fall back on as an excuse.

 

But you must admit, that based on what Yoda says, it is the truth. He does say that the boy he knew is gone. All that's walking around is this...thing that is looks like Anakin, but is not him. It is the truth as Yoda states it. There is also the fact that Obi-wan speaks to him in the past tense, after cutting his limbs off.

Obi-wan: "You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would, destroy the Sith, not join them. Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness."

Anakin: "I hate you!"

Obi-wan: "You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you."

He speaks to him in the past tense, yet he is not dead. And in ANH, he doesn't even refer to him as Anakin during their fight.

 

Look at the distances Obi-Wan takes this to. Saying someone is *dead* when really, the man is there. This is completely messed due to the change Lucas made with the Anakin's Force ghost. Right now, what Obi-Wan said was true, but back then, no. And I myself, believe the Shaw ghost fit the story better before. So I really don't know what to say besides, what Obi-Wan did was right, but he lied.

 

The force ghost thing looks strange, I agree on that!
Also, I think that he actually "lied from a certain point of view" as well as he told the truth from a certain point of view. From his view Anakin was dead, as Sinister said. A Jedi also doesn't rely on "crude matters". Vader was a shell as Anakin and OBW were shells. When Anakin turned, he left that body, and the body was consumed by Vader.

As to if he did right, I'm convinced of it. He simply didn't think Luke was ready to handle the truth... which most likely was right

 

Oh man, I think one of my favorite lines from the OT was the "from a certain point of view" in RotJ. Luke really disagreed with Obi-Wan at first - but I think Obi-Wan is right. There's no black and whites, just different shades that look black and white at extremes.

I don't know why Obi-Wan held back from Luke, except maybe that it would interfere with his training? I could see doing that myself, if I were in OBi-Wan's place. Hmmm, there's probably something in the PT about this buried somewhere in the story, I just can't think of anything.

 

Rossa83
Also, I think that he actually "lied from a certain point of view" as well as he told the truth from a certain point of view. From his view Anakin was dead, as Sinister said. A Jedi also doesn't rely on "crude matters". Vader was a shell as Anakin and OBW were shells. When Anakin turned, he left that body, and the body was consumed by Vader.

Yah, I sorta agree with that. Plus, I think *understanding* is more important then plain facts. It's the difference between "your father has two sides" and "your father is a cruel dictator who must be stopped."

 

Obi-wan and Yoda both felt that Luke could not handle the burden of knowing the truth, until he had at least completed his training.

 

And rightly so

 

I don't think we can blame poor Obi for lying as when he told Luke that Vader murdered his father it was true and Lucas changed the story on him as opposed to Obi changing the story on Luke. However as we must be in-universe to answer this question I think that even if you say that Obi-wan lied my response would be "So what?". There are times when you have to lie. Absolute truth isn't always desirable and I think the aforementioned instance is one of those times. He wants to get Luke to accept his destiny for the sake of the galaxy not overwhelm him to the point he curls up into ball and sucks his thumb.

 

Hmmmm, I never thought about the fact that jedi lie sometimes. I guess you can't help it sometimes.
(My faith has been shaken!)

 

I'll agree to that Rossa!

 

Just so. Particularly because "that boy is our last hope."

I don't care what Yoda says, I doubt Leia would have saved Vader.

Luke needed to build up a belief in his father as a Jedi and a hero before he could face Vader.


Here's another question, based on this topic: Do you think Obi-Wan and Yoda thought Luke was the Chosen One? Or did they know it was up to Anakin?

 

Here's another question, based on this topic: Do you think Obi-Wan and Yoda thought Luke was the Chosen One? Or did they know it was up to Anakin?

You know...I have no clue.

 

Here's another question, based on this topic: Do you think Obi-Wan and Yoda thought Luke was the Chosen One? Or did they know it was up to Anakin?

Hmmm, well Yoda never blindly trusted the prophecy in RotS. He said "misread might have been" or something.

 

I think they thought it was Luke then, because they both believed Anakin couldn't be turned back, so Luke would have to be the Chosen One(unless they thought it was Leia).

 

I'm still not sure that they had given up hope on Anakin. As mentioned above, Yoda and OBW told Luke more or less what he needed to hear. He defied them on most matters, so what would be better than telling him that his father was lost? Luke would try to do the impossible. I know it's far fetched after what we've seen in ROTS, but that was my belief before the PT was released...

As for the chosen one: If the prophecy read that the chosen one was created by midi-chlorians, I doubt if OBW or Yoda would ever think that Luke was the chosen one. I just think they saw great power in him. That's ultimately what they used him for as well. However, it strikes me that I don't think that Luke was any stronger than OBW by ANH, and hence my above view on what they told Luke...

 

I think that Yoda and Obi-wan gave up on the prophecy, but they did believe in one fundamental fact of it. The Sith have to be destroyed. But I don't think they believed either Luke or Leia were the Chosen One. Much less if Anakin could still be the Chosen One.

But let's be careful here. This last part is too close to an existing topic. We're not going into whether or not they believe Anakin could come back. Just if they still believed he was the Chosen One anymore or if his children could've been.

 

Well, I don't think Yoda's "a prophecy misread might be" necessarily concludes that he had lost faith in Anakin as the chosen one. Rather, I think it was a testimony of how the Jedi had been blind in their training of Anakin and their faith in him.

 

What's the difference?

 

The difference being that he still thought Anakin to be the chosen one, but perhaps felt the Jedi had been blind in their proceedings. So, they still believed Anakin to be the chosen one, but they were unsure of how it all fitted together.

 

Certain poin of view

I think even in real life, we will see and realize things depending on where we're coming from.

IMO after his duel with Ani/Vader on Mustafar, Obi did believe his friend was gone, even if deep down he maybe wanted to believe Padme was right when she said there was still good in him.

You wanna know what a real liar is? check Palpatine out

 

Look at the distances Obi-Wan takes this to. Saying someone is *dead* when really, the man is there. This is completely messed due to the change Lucas made with the Anakin's Force ghost. Right now, what Obi-Wan said was true, but back then, no. And I myself, believe the Shaw ghost fit the story better before. So I really don't know what to say besides, what Obi-Wan did was right, but he lied.

But the new Anakin force ghost makes it true, and not really a point of view anymore. On the other hand, to me it seems that only Luke and not Leia or Ewoks can see the force ghosts at the end of ROTJ. So that would make it from Lukes point of view.