Obi-Wan Kenobi: the greatest of the old Jedi?

Hey, first time posting in a movie forum, I prefer looking at the films with the EU included, but I figured that this topic was most relevant to the films.

Anyway, I like Obi-Wan quite a bit, definitely ranking among my favorite characters. But for awhile, I just considered him a failed teacher, necessary to lead Anakin on the path he had to take. But, I've begun to think otherwise. I think he may have been the "greatest" (for lack of a better word) Jedi of the Old Republic.

My reasons? Well, I'll quote Anakin in AOTC. "As wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu". Now, for awhile, I just chalked this up to Anakin looking at Obi-Wan through a students eyes. Of course, you see your teacher as this great, amazing person. But could it be literal? In the PT, probably not. He's very powerful, definitely, but he's certainly not Mace Windu's level by that point, and most likely not as wise as Yoda. But one thing you have to consider is that, like Anakin, Obi-Wan was young. He was learning. In just three years, he ascended from Jedi Knight to Council member, and went from being no match for Durge to being able to pick apart General Grievous easily. Like Anakin, he was still improving. By the end of his life, he was able to go toe-to-toe with Darth Vader, and likely could have lasted much longer had he not sacrificed himself (though he would not have been able to win, fighting him is accomplishment enough).

But that's just in relation to power, which really isn't where I'm going with this. The one I'm more focused on is "as wise as master Yoda". Was he? I think so. He may have failed his student, Anakin, but I think one very important character trait of Obi-Wan's is that he never, not even for a second, gave up on Luke. Yoda, by the OT, was a broken man (err, alien). He didn't want to train Luke because he was terrified of Luke turning to the dark side. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, fully believed in Luke, and convinced Yoda that Luke was the last hope. Just like how Qui-Gon saw something in Anakin and refused to back down, Obi-Wan saw something in Luke, going as far as to sacrifice his own life so he could guide him down the right path. While Yoda may have trained Luke, I think Obi-Wan was the most important teacher Luke ever had, and I think it's very appropriate that Luke named his son after him.

Anyway, just a little thought. This just came after thinking of Obi-Wan's significance to SW, and if any other Jedi would have taken his place, could they have guided Luke? Like I said, I think that if Yoda didn't believe in Luke at first, I'm not sure anyone else would have, other than Obi-Wan. So, that's why I believe he was the most significant Jedi of the Old Republic.

 

I might add more to this later, but I definitely think that Obi-Wan was the greatest of all the Old Order Jedi. Whereas Yoda and Windu were both so steeped in the detachment philosophy that they sacrificed compassion, Obi-Wan had the perfect balance of both. No, he could not stop Palpatine from manipulating Anakin, and I really don't see that as his fault. I don't see that he "failed" Anakin, he did the best he could, and it breaks my heart to think of him sitting on Tatooine for 20 years wondering where he went wrong. (Tatooine Ghost goes more into that, Leia senses his emotions when she visits his hovel.) It was his attachment to Anakin that led him to believe in Luke, and successfully train him.

 

Obi-Wan definitely was the greatest Jedi of them all.

 

^ What she said!

Perfect man, perfect Jedi? No. No one could meet that impossible standard. But achievable perfection, achievable perfection?

Obi's the man.

 

I guess I'll have to be the wet blanket here and disagree. Personally, I would give the honor of the greatest of the old Jedi to Qui-Gon Jinn who eventually becomes a teacher for Yoda and was Obi-Wan's old Master. That's not to disparage Obi-Wan, but I would say that he would be better described as the most well-rounded of the Jedi rather than the greatest. He's clearly a great warrior, wise, calm (yet caring), gentle, but fiercely principled. However, I think he has a tendency to be too conservative and by-the-book. He sees things in very distinct shades of black and white which, while it can be a point in his favor at times, can be detrimental as well. Had he been a bit more flexible in Anakin's training and believed a bit more in Luke (by trusting him to do what's right instead of lying to him) I think that things might have turned out a bit better. At the very least, Luke would have been spared the pain of having been deceived.

 

Agreed. As far as the Old Jedi Order is concerned, Yoda was a bit detached, Mace a bit dark, and so on... out of the prequel Jedi, Obi-Wan comes the closest to capturing the Jedi ideal better than anyone else.

When I hear the word "Jedi", I think of someone in the Obi-Wan school of doing things- patient, wise, preferring to get by with wit and diplomacy, yet knowing that sometimes you must make a stand against evil, being able to control your emotions, yet still having that bit of humanity that shows through- particularly in a sense of warmth, compassion, and patience that makes you relatable rather than being entirely detached... even Obi-Wan's fighting style is perfectly a Jedi style: he stays on the defense, letting his opponents expend themselves against him. And when pressed, how does he go on the offensive? He uses his defense to attack. "Always for knowledge and defense", after all... even when it comes to his bladework, Obi-Wan embodies that ideal.

I could go on and on and on about how Obi-Wan is such a great Jedi- sure, Yoda is wiser, Anakin more powerful, Mace better with a lightsaber, and so on, but in many ways, Obi-Wan captures the essence of what it means to be a Jedi better than any of them.

 

dewback_rancher posted.

When I hear the word "Jedi", I think of someone in the Obi-Wan school of doing things- patient, wise, preferring to get by with wit and diplomacy, yet knowing that sometimes you must make a stand against evil, being able to control your emotions, yet still having that bit of humanity that shows through- particularly in a sense of warmth, compassion, and patience that makes you relatable rather than being entirely detached... even Obi-Wan's fighting style is perfectly a Jedi style: he stays on the defense, letting his opponents expend themselves against him. And when pressed, how does he go on the offensive? He uses his defense to attack. "Always for knowledge and defense", after all... even when it comes to his bladework, Obi-Wan embodies that ideal.

I could go on and on and on about how Obi-Wan is such a great Jedi- sure, Yoda is wiser, Anakin more powerful, Mace better with a lightsaber, and so on, but in many ways, Obi-Wan captures the essence of what it means to be a Jedi better than any of them.

Totally agree and to add. Yoda nor Mace could see the evil in Palpatine, so how could Obi-Wan keep impressionable Anakin out of Palpy?s clutches. At the end Obi-Wan told him that he loved him and he was like his brother, and throughout the episodes, you see their friendship in the elevator and when Anakin saves Obi-Wan after Dooku throws him across the room. I think they were close, but because Obi-Wan was a Jedi first and foremost Anakin was afraid to bring him in to his confidence about his attachment.

Palpatine played on that and even Padmé thought Palpatine was her confidant and adviser. Obi-Wan did what he had to do and he did it without thinking of his own well being or comforts. As he aged he grew into the great Jedi we all knew he would be.

 

I never saw Obi-Wan as the greatest Jedi. In fact, I never saw the "greatest Jedi" in any of the movies. They were all impressive, but they had their flaws. The idea of a "greatest Jedi" bores me and doesn't make what I would consider to be an interesting character. And since I found Obi-Wan interesting, I certainly don't consider him to be the "greatest" Jedi.

 

"Greatest" is a comparative, not an absolute.




Even for us Obi-Wan fans.

 

From the Star Wars novelisation

 

Yes, well said.

I think Obi-Wan was the best example of what a Jedi should be... especially in light of the PT showing us how the Jedi in general were flawed, despite their good intentions. He displayed their best traits, at times almost embodying their ideals when they didn't always seem to even remember what those ideals were... and he showed little of the negative traits. And along with Yoda, he learned from their mistakes as he moved into the OT era.

 

Yeah, Obi-Wan is the man. I love the subtleness of just how badass he is in ANH-he basically spends 20 years living in a mud hut in the outback of Tattooine (where btw he has the local tribe of Tusken Raiders terrified of him) and then comes out of retirement and promptly totally compromises the Empire's most secret and important military program after being aboard for a grand total of five minutes, and ensures that the Rebellion will succeed by ensuring that the son of the Chosen One and the Death Star schematics escape into the hands of the Rebels.

By the way, he leaves Tarkin and Vader thinking they're on the verge of success and oh...


[image=http://www.ubercharged.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/death_star_1_destroyed_at_yavin-600x332.jpg]


...Not so much.

 

"Greatest" is a comparative, not an absolute.




Even for us Obi-Wan fans.



That's nice. But I'm still not convinced that Obi-Wan was the "greatest" of the old Jedi? I cannot label a character, who tries to convince his protégée that the best way to become a Jedi knight is to commit patricide, as "the greatest".



I think Obi-Wan was the best example of what a Jedi should be... especially in light of the PT showing us how the Jedi in general were flawed, despite their good intentions. He displayed their best traits, at times almost embodying their ideals when they didn't always seem to even remember what those ideals were... and he showed little of the negative traits.


Really? I can recall Obi-Wan displaying a good number of flaws in both trilogies.

 

Not to mention leaving someone to burn to death. And stowing aboard a ship without a person's knowledge and using them as bait. Or being perfectly willing to leave helpful individuals to their fate and calling them "pathetic lifeforms". Nice guy, that Obi-Wan.

 

Obi-Wan is the greatest SNEAK of the Jedi. He's always hiding and sneaking.

 

^^ (more than one)

Yeah, like any other character is flawless.

Qui-Gon: insults Jar Jar. Displays no tact in pursuing his own (excuse me, the FORCE's) agenda. Treats Anakin as the Chosen One rather than Anakin Skywalker.

I pick on Qui-Gon because he's often cited as the "greatest Jedi" by some.

Personally, I'm glad Obi-Wan sneaked on Padme's ship. Think if he could taken out Anakin - maybe there wouldn't have been 19 yrs of the Empire.

I know you'll never go back to confirm this, but Obi-Wan asked who was the "pathetic lifeform" and Qui-Gon responded, "the boy."

Prove that means Obi-Wan was deliberately "dissing" Anakin.

And as much as I hate to admit it, I've said things that were taken wrong or were dismissive. I hope that doesn't mean in your view I should never be forgiven those words or hung over a Mustafar fire by my toes because I fall far short of perfect.

And I applaud Obi-Wan leaving Vader to burn to death. So there!

OKay, now that THAT shock value has frozen your brains, Obi-Wan was right to follow the Force's urgings (and yes, I know that novel citation of having "no mercy" in him - mercy was up to the Force at that point). For all he knew, Anakin was mere seconds from crisped beyond salvation and Padme WAS someone he might be able to help.

The you cite his very flaws/imperfections/whatever as proof that he was not a great and flawed man.

By that standard, there is no (comparative) greatest anything.

 

OK, I probably don't need to tell you all that I am primarily an Anakin fan. And it seems that in the past, there was a theory floating about that it is impossible to be a fan of both Anakin and Obi-Wan. I've been trying to prove that theory wrong. I'm going to give it one more shot here.

Pathetic life form: not the most sensitive of comments but I've heard worse. As Valairy_Scot pointed out, Qui-Gon gets a lot less flack for calling Jar-Jar stupid.

Sneaking away on Padme's ship: bad lapse in judgment, I wish more than anything that Obi-Wan hadn't done that, but I can see Obi-Wan's line of thinking here. He had to find Anakin, he knew Padme was going to Anakin, and Padme refused to tell him where Anakin was. I also wished that Anakin had spent .2 nanoseconds using critical thought, because he might have stopped to ask, "Hey, Padme, did you know that Obi-Wan snuck on board your ship?" How many missions had he been on with Obi-Wan? Did he really not think that Obi-Wan was capable of stowing on board a ship?

But by that point, Anakin had been driven completely insane. He had either been listening to Palpatine or trying to view/post the TF.N boards while getting a "service unavailable" message.

All joking aside, he was almost literally no longer Anakin. And the insanity had made him paranoid.

Which leads me to the leaving him in the lava. I didn't like that either. But I've never been angry at Obi-Wan about it. He probably thought that Anakin couldn't be saved, and he wanted to get Padme some help, and save Anakin's children. The "You were my brother, Anakin, I loved you" broke my heart into a thousand pieces. Hence I've only watched that scene once.

Telling Luke to kill his father: again, I didn't like it, but as far as Obi-Wan was concerned, Anakin was already dead. Just as Anakin would never attack Padme or Obi-Wan, only Vader would do that...Obi-Wan would not tell Luke or anyone else to kill Anakin.

 

Well, of course no character is perfect or flawless, but I just contest the notion that Obi-Wan was the greatest of the Old Jedi. There's no doubt he was a great Jedi, but, in my opinion, Qui-Gon did a better job tempering the rigidity of the Old Jedi Order with Living Force. Yes, he made mistakes and probably should have considered Anakin's background a bit more, but I think he truly had Anakin's best interests at heart and didn't just see him as the "Chosen One." Don't forget, he initially tried to exchange Anakin's pod for both Anakin and his mother. I think he also cared about Anakin as a person.

You're allowed to think that Obi-Wan was a better Jedi than Qui-Gon, but people are going to disagree. I like Obi-Wan, but I think he made some rather large mistakes and I liked Qui-Gon's approach to the Force better.

So the ends justify the means, huh?

Of course he didn't know Anakin personally at this time. But at this point, Anakin is the whole reason they're getting off Tatooine and it just seems a bit...condescending that he would refer to a person he's never met and who's just helped them as "another pathetic lifeform." There's also the bit where he calls Anakin dangerous while talking to Qui-Gon and Anakin is right there. It's not dissing per say, but Obi-Wan doesn't seem to be the kid's biggest fan.

You're glad that he left Vader to burn? Well...okay. I personally found it cruel. We don't do that to our worst criminals because we as a society believe that, even if those people deserve it, we must be better and so we will not hand out "cruel and unusual punishments." You're entitled to your opinion, but I think you're being a bit dismissive. Obi-Wan should have simply killed Vader, not made him suffer (as much as he deserved it). He was sent there to kill him, there's no reason to make him suffer unnecessarily. How long does it take to chuck his lightsaber at his head?

 

I think it was that "I HATE YOU!" that convinced Obi-Wan that Anakin was already gone. VADER needed to be left to burn to death. Now, I also think that Obi-Wan could have been merciful and just ended Vader's life right then and there, but that's where I think Obi-Wan's attachment to ANAKIN (his son, his brother, his partner) tripped him up. I don't think he could land the killing blow to someone who meant so much to him. Anakin may have been gone, but it was still his face, his eyes looking up at him.

I truly think that had Anakin resurfaced and asked for mercy, or help, Obi-Wan would have either tried to save him or killed him right then and there to spare him.

In my opinion, the only thing Obi-Wan could have done differently on Mustafar was stick around and make sure the lava finished the job. But he probably couldn't bear to watch it.

To me, Obi-Wan is the greatest of the Jedi because of his flaws. No matter his flaws, he never stopped trying to be a better Jedi, a better man. He did his best with Anakin, a prodigy that no born-and-bred Jedi could ever have been equipped to handle. We saw his doubt in himself and his choices, we saw him discussing Anakin with his colleagues, who basically told him, "Well, we don't know what's going on, but you've got carte blanche to handle the boy. But we'll still criticize and judge without offering any real insight."

Obi-Wan always made the best choices he could given the information he had at the time, even when he told Luke he had to face and destroy Vader. As far as he was concerned, Anakin was dead and gone and that atrocity that inhabited what was left of his body was a Sith Lord. Should he have trusted Luke enough to tell him the truth? Maybe. We'll never know what might have happened if Obi-Wan could have brought himself to have faith that maybe there was a spark of Anakin left in Vader. Luke turned out to be right in that case. Does that make Obi-Wan wrong? Maybe.

Obi-Wan was handed bad situation after bad situation from day one, yet he always tried to make the best of it. He suffered on the Force's behalf for years with no complaints. He took responsibility for the man Vader became even while presenting his "unique point of view" to Luke. He tried to spare Luke the complete truth and even after Luke found out, Obi-Wan still stuck to his story. "The good man that was your father was consumed by Vader." Which didn't really help Luke out much when Obi-Wan still thought Vader had to be destroyed, but still.

 

Cos dealing with TWO people who disagree with you kinda sucks, eh?

A tad defensive, aren't we?

Well done. You're attuned to some of Qui-Gon's flaws. The thread, however, isn't about him.

You pick on Qui-Gon to deflect discussion away from your Chosen One, Obi-Wan.

Maybe there also wouldn't have been nineteen years of the Empire (plus tax) if Obi-Wan had trained Anakin better?

The wording is proof enough. That said, Obi-Wan is kind of teasing Qui-Gon in that moment. Still, the wording remains.

Irony, where is thy sting?

Nonetheless, Obi-Wan still leaves Anakin to die. The last image Anakin Skywalker has of Obi-Wan Kenobi is of Obi-Wan Kenobi WALKING AWAY after having hacked Anakin's limbs off, lectured him and watched him burn in agony. Also, Obi-Wan sure helped Padme by sneaking aboard her ship and appearing in the middle of a tense moment between Padme and Anakin, didn't he?

Everyone is flawed and possessed of greatness, but few deserve to be called great without qualification. Greatness is also a subjective concept. Technically, there is NO "greatest anything"; it is all in the eye of the beholder. I wouldn't say that one disagreement over the manner in which a fictional character is "greatest" (or not) is grounds for the dissolution of greatness itself. That's just, well ... silly.

 

[image=http://www.voont.com/files/images/rev/future/sting.jpg]

Sting, where is thy death?

 

Valairy_Scot posted:
or hung over a Mustafar fire by my toes because I fall far short of perfect.


I was once told that nothing I did was perfect and that I had flaws. It is human to have them and I smiled, and then I punched him in the nose. I felt GREAT after that. (Only joking, you didn't really believe me did you?)



Of course in reality Obi-Wan was?.Pandering to the script. I?m sure if Obi-Wan had a choice he would have saved Anakin as he did love him (as brother, friend)

But Palpy was very close to landing his ship, and Obi-Wan?s main concern was Padmé. What if he had taken the time to try and save Anakin?s lost soul and Sidious found Padmé first he would have killed her or taken her and the babies and probably left Anakin.

It was already too late for the Jedi. Palpy had given the order 66. By this time Palpy didn?t really need Anakin- the clones had done the job for him.

Only Obi-Wan was left and a little old gremlin who hid on dagobah why didn?t Yoda go with Obi-Wan and help him? No he left it all to Obi-Wan the greatest Jedi left.


The (good) galaxy needed the twins and Obi-Wan was the only person with any greatness? Ref: (larger or more important than others of the same kind) ( a significant person) left to do the right thing and watch over Luke.

So in short? Obi-Wan was the greatest of the old Jedi?HE was the only one.

 

One more thing:

Did Obi-Wan actually know that Qui-Gon was planning to drag a real live human being along with them when he uttered "pathetic life form," which actually seemed to be played as more of an inside joke between the two of them?

How was he supposed to know it was a kid?

As for looking down on them, he was taught by Qui-Gon, who treated Jar-Jar like some poodoo on the bottom of his boot until he proved valuable. Maybe Obi-Wan learned from the example of the great Qui-Gon Jinn on that issue.

 

Don't you think it would make Obi-Wan quite unhappy if he heard you talking about his beloved Master like that?

Honestly, though, Qui-Gon calls Jar Jar brainless after he almost got them killed again. Sure it's not very nice, but obviously Qui-Gon's getting a bit frustrated. He's just saved that Gungan's life twice in ten seconds. And I do think you're being a tad unfair to the man. Once Jar Jar had shown them Otoh Gunga, he wasn't exactly that helpful anymore, but Qui-Gon did save him from punishment.

There's no doubt that Qui-Gon's as flawed as Obi-Wan. He tends to be a bit too lax on his use of mind tricks. And he's quite stubborn when he believes he's right. But he stands out to me out of all the Jedi of the Old Order because he was willing to show some initiative and question orders. Duty is an important thing, and Obi-Wan's deep sense of commitment and duty is one of his most admirable qualities. But sometimes, you have to be willing to challenge authority and I think Obi-Wan would have done better if he'd gone against the Council on some matters.