PT Obi-Wan Kenobi: tragic hero or misguided teacher?

I'm torn.

What is Obi-Wan? I love the way he is portrayed by Ewan, and I think he is a highlight of the PT.

But is he a tragic hero or a misguided teacher?

I keep praising Qui-Gon for he is the ideal father figure for Anakin, but I feel bad for putting down Obi-Wan.

I genuinely feel for the poor man in the end of ROTS, his final speech to Vader as he slides closer to the lava...

Its heartbreaking stuff, but is Obi-Wan at fault? I know there are a multitude of reasons why Anakin fell, but I personally see a void between Anakin and Obi-Wan after Qui-Gon died.

The clone wars proved they were brothers in arms, but when it came down to padme; the thing he cherished most, he refused to tell obi-wan or ask for help.

Obi-Wan comes off very harsh in AOTC, though the scenes in Padme's apartment before they slice the bugs is nice.

Even though Obi-Wan came through in the end by ROTS, I still feel Anakin couldn't get over their relationship in AOTC.

He would have been more trusting towards Qui-Gon. In TPM he depends on Qui-Gon and then suddenly he is thrust into the arms of Obi-Wan the stranger.

The issue is, every time I try to think of Obi-Wan as tragic I think to myself "Well perhaps you shouldn't have been such a douchebag in TPM and alot of AOTC".

In your opinion, What is the proper way to describe PT Obi-Wan?

 

We did a bit of discussion, on how Obi-Wan's training failed, on this thread -


EDIT- Er the link isn't working. It's pg4 of the "Lines from the saga that mirror each other" thread on pg1 of the saga forum.
It starts with my post at 4/23/11

Basically you've summed up what I think as well. Obi-Wan as Anakin's Master was never meant to be. Obi-Wan's heart was in the right place, but he failed overall. I think he redeemed himself with Luke though.

 

Obi-Wan did not fail anymore than the rest of the Jedi or Anakin himself did. They all share some blame - even Qui-Gon does, as well.

I'll come back to elaborate when I have a chance.

Mmm, back.

Qui-Gon was the ideal father-figure for Anakin. Obi-Wan was too young for that role. That has nothing to do with either man, though.

Obi-Wan was - guess what - human. Like any parent anywhere, he made mistakes. If he failed Anakin, every parent who ever lived failed the kids.

Anakin wasn't the ideal learner, either. He made mistakes, human mistakes (not wanting to listen to his elders, wanting to grow up too fast, knowing he knew more than his elders - ooh, that last sounds just like my own brother).

Qui-Gon planted this idea of destiny and specialness within Anakin as well as seeding the belief that Anakin was better than Obi-Wan, since he set Obi-Wan aside to teach Anakin.

The Order didn't know how and it seems didn't want to adapt to new teaching strategies; I suspect they didn't give Obi-Wan much guidance, either, if he asked for it.

Both Obi-Wan and Anakin talked past each other in AoTC. Neither was blameless.

 

Perhaps I came off as too harsh. While I stand by the belief that Obi-Wan wasn't the right teacher for Anakin, I didn't mean to imply that Anakin was less resposible. It was Anakin's decisions, Obi-Wan's mentoring was just one of the reasons IMO.

Furthermore, I firmly believe the movies are written in such a way as to imply Obi-Wan wasn't the ideal Master to train Anakin. For example (from the dialogue thread) notice Qui-Gon's advice in TPM; "Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts." Then in the next movie, Obi-Wan states the opposite... "Patience. Use the force. Think."
This doesn't feel like a coincidence, it's too contrasting. No wonder Anakin was confused.

 

Obi-Wan is both. As I've said in several posts before, his characterization and relationship with Anakin is very nuanced. That's what I love about the prequels, which do more to portray father/son relationships and generation clashes than many genre movies.

Obi-Wan genuinely cared for Anakin, and tried to raise him right. But Obi-Wan also had a mentoring style that came off as harsh and insensitive. While Anakin was probably a bit too reckless, Obi-Wan was also too blind to Anakin's abilities. Watch the Coruscant chase scene in AOTC. Obi-Wan is the one who starts things off recklessly, by jumping through the window. He falls and needs Anakin to save him. Anakin has a plan to track down the assassin when she seems to get away, which Obi-Wan doesn't believe in at all. Yet that plan worked. Obi-Wan also criticized Anakin for losing his lightsaber in combat, something that just tends to happen (and which later happens to Obi-Wan himself).

I believe all these little things were deliberate. The theme of overcoming unbelieving mentors and father figures runs throughout all six SW movies.

 

Well, Obi-Wan admits his failure as a teacher in both OT and PT. Of course, it's not entirely his fault - ultimately, the choices were made by Anakin himself.

The problem with Obi-Wan (and the rest of the Jedi, even Yoda) is that they tried to apply the standard Jedi approach to an obviously special kid with different background. It's like teaching reading/writing to kids with dyslexia: standard methods might not work, you need to find something else and the Jedi failed to do so.

That's what I like the best about the story in the prequels: it's not black and white, cut and dry, there're many factors contributing to Anakin's fall (as well as the fall of the Republic). It's far more complex than it might seem from the OT.

 

A master who lets his hotblooded Padawan run off with Natalie Portman obviously doesn't care.

Need another example?

How about: Wizard pupils dreams of his mothers death. Wizard master shrugs it off as "just dreams", despite fully knowing pupil is the CHOSEN ONE and despite knowing that visions do, in fact, happen.

Need another example?

Padawan is ordered to spy on his best friend. Master doesn't tell the council it's a bad idea.

Need another example?

Master leaves former Padawan to die in excruciating pain on hell planet.

Need even more examples? If you really do, the case is clear, nothing will ever convince you of what is right there in the movies as you willfully chose not to accept it.

 

You know - I do willfully ignore all that because it's clear (some)would willfully ignore any nuanced approach.

Life is nuanced. People do wrong. Nothing is ever the consequence of just one person or events.

But of course let's blame Obi-Wan. Force forbid anything else interfere with that mindset. It's his fault for every blasted thing that ever happened in the GFFA.








Not.

 

I would leave Vader to rot on Mustafar too. Obi-Wan should not have spared him that punishment.

 

Perhaps Obi-Wan simply left Anakin to the will of the Force? However, not finishing him off was a tactical mistake that eventually cost him his own life. Something to think about.

 

I think Obi-wan is both a tragic hero and a misguided teacher. He tried as best as he could to train Anakin but he should've realized that he was in over his head if he thought that he was ready to train a jedi so soon after he himself was recently granted the rank of Jedi Knight. He never bothered to ask either Yoda or the other masters for help with Anakin's training and it didn't help matters that PalpSidious is undermining Obi-wan's teachings behind his back. Obi-wan may have been overly-critical and insensitive towards Anakin but the Clone Wars helped him put that aside so that he could bond with the boy. The tragic part came when Obi-wan watched his entire livelihood that he knew since birth being smashed to kingdom come and he's forced to battle the person responsible for this madness...his own padawan, Anakin. It pains Obi-wan to have to slice up Anakin to pieces and watch him burn to death but what's even more tragic is that Obi-wan had to spend the rest of his life watching over Anakin's son, Luke on a planet-sized desert alone. It'll be 20 years before Obi-wan gets back into action only to be killed off by his bio-mechanical student which sucks the worst.

As upsetting as it was to watch Anakin lose his mother, I felt bad for Obi-wan because the Jedi were like his family and it hurt him to know that Anakin helped a Sith Lord murder Obi-wan's entire family.

 

I didn't get so much of a tragedy from his death in ANH. His smile before he passed gave me the impression he was at peace.

Also, If Obi-Wan helped Anakin, what makes you think Anakin would not try to kill him when he had his mobility back?

I love the grey shades anakinfan pointed out.

I guess its too simple to just give one defining label to PT obi-wan

 

Obi-wan's story is one that, I think, illustrates a running theme throughout the prequel trilogy -- that one can't discount the forces that shaped a person but, at the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own choices. Anakin's choices were his own and Obi-Wan's choices were his own. The same is true for every other character. Anakin's actions, in turning to the dark side, can be contextualized by looking at how many factors and external powers (from the Jedi, his slavery, Palpatine) influenced his choices. It's only fair to extend that same courtesy to Obi-Wan; he was raised within in set framework that emphasized detachment, duty, and subservience to authority. You can't blame the guy for teaching Anakin within that framework -- asking him to spontaneously move beyond it and transform into the paternal figure Anakin needed is, in my opinion, as ridiculous as suggesting that Anakin forget his history as a slave or stop loving his mother.

That doesn't mean that Obi-Wan doesn't have a responsibility to mentor Anakin but you can't ask him to do the impossible. He didn't always make the right choices, but he does accept the consequences of those choices.

 

Thank you for putting that so eloquently.

 

Is, what I posted, wrong? Obi-Wan screwed up big time several times. Not the little, unimportant issues, but the important issues with reaching consequences. The way he screwed up makes it seem (to me), that he didn't give a damn about his pupil.

If you think he is a good teacher, can you give me at least three examples of good teaching?

 

When did that happen?

 

I think that Obi-Wan is a tragic hero that was completely out of his depth when it came to the spitfire that was Anakin. It's quite clear that *both* men cared for each other immensely but I do think the presentation of the relationship leaves a fair amount to be desired. Many, unjustly (to me), *solely* blame Obi-Wan for Anakin's Fall. That is ridiculous. Anakin was going to Fall *regardless* whom his Master/teacher was. It's an integral part of the *story*.

Obi-Wan wasn't ready to be a teacher, never mind of such a firebrand as Anakin. I agree. *However* I don't believe anyone in the Order, except, perhaps, Master Dooku (had he stayed with the Order but I completely understand why he left), would've had even a chance with Anakin. Most of the Order was so rigid in their views and manner of doing things I really don't think Anakin should've been a Jedi at all. He's not suited to it.

I believe Obi-Wan did the best he could given his indoctrination by the Jedi. Sure, he made errors, some glaring, but so did Anakin. I think it speaks well of Obi-Wan's character that not only did he train a boy he was justifiably wary of to honor his Master's dying wish but despite everything he also remembers Anakin very fondly and sincerely.

Anakin is responsible for his own bad choices. Obi-Wan did *not* drive Anakin to the Dark Side. His somewhat aloof manner contributed, true enough, but Akakin's own arrogance, anger, selfishness, and haughtiness contributed equally or even more than the inexperience of his teacher.

Thus, to sum up: Obi-Wan and Anakin are *both* very human and flawed. Obi-Wan is a tragic hero that did the best he could in a losing battle (because of how the story's presented, though again, I put forth the Master of Anakin wouldn't matter a whit in the end), and lost his first student due to both men and the Order's unbending attitudes.

PiettsHat is also completely spot on!

Perva: Please tell me you're kidding? Every time Obi-Wan objected/chided Anakin he does *not* listen to him. It wouldn't be any different had Obi-Wan voiced dissent *especially* because the only thing Anakin seems to care about (selfishly, at that) is Padme.

 

Dooku-Darklighter

Yes, Anakin is at fault for his own demise. But Obi-Wan, Padmé, and all the others aided it. And even if most of the blame belongs to Anakin, it doesn't change that Obi-Wan is a horrible teacher. The whole vision-issue is unforgivable on its own. It is the kind of event that could annihilate any friendship permanently.

Oh, so Anakin didn't listen? Maybe because Obi-Wan never followed his own damn advice! Like when he criticized Anakin for taking a risk by using Padmé as bait and jumping out of the window five frakking minutes later. Blatant hypocrisy is the core of Obi-Wans teaching.

And still nobody could point me to three different examples of "good teaching" in the movie. If he was even close to "decent", then why can't any one of you give me three, small examples? Most of what I read here is about how he is "human", which is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

AOTC

 

Perva: If you read my amended post, I never said that Obi-Wan was a 'good teacher' for Anakin. I simply said he did the best he could given his framework and circumstances. How's that? We're admitting that both are flawed and partially responsible for what happened.

Also, I am not getting into a 'prove it'! Debate with you. It'd be pointless. Most things in SW are matters of perception and can be reasoned but not proven. Thus, I won't bother beyond what I've already said here.

 

I refuse to believe that he "did the best he could given his framework and circumstances." A lot of his actions demonstrate a huge lack of care. Anakin was probably a burden from the beginning as implied in TPM.

Fortunately, the Obi-Wan charakter gains a lot in TCW and other EU-sources, otherwise I'd probably despise his passiv-aggressive self to the core.

Well, without evidence, an argument is pretty much useless...

 

He didn't run off with her, he was assigned as her bodyguard. When he went to look for his mother and then Obi-Wan, she was the one who joined him.

 

I give my reasoning within my posts, Perva. If people don't except it, then fine. Plus, I don't like arguing. I prefer discussion. However, most here seem to perfer fighting and no, I'm not going to defend my views beyond that point I feel they need to be. As Sir Peter Cushing as Tarkin says very wisely (and he's an Imperial! ): 'This bickering is pointless!'

You don't like Obi-Wan, that's your right. I semi-like Obi-Wan and am not very fond of Anakin. That is mine.