Obi-Wan's manipulations - Did he come close to majorly screwing up?

Let me preface by saying that I realize Obi-Wan had the interests of the galaxy at heart and was really looking at the big picture, but my gosh, he can be a manipulative little weasel, can't he?

Looking at things on a smaller scale...
First, Obi-Wan steals his best friend's kids and let's him think they're dead (or at least that his child is dead, since Anakin didn't know he had twins). Then he tells his best friend's son that he (Vader, his best friend) killed his father. Actually, Obi-Wan manipulates Luke quite a bit and his reason, a just one, is this: he needs Luke to destroy Vader, his father, and save the galaxy.

So, Obi-Wan does even more manipulating. He sits silently by as Luke develops romantic feelings for his sister since Luke going off to rescue her is exactly what he needs him to do. Everything's going dandy until...Obi-Wan decides to go for one final manipulation.

Now, as I watched ANH tonight, I asked myself, what is Obi-Wan's motivation for letting Vader kill him? What does this achieve? Luke still has A LOT to learn about the force. Wouldn't he benefit more from Obi-Wan's mentorship along with Yoda's than simply Yoda's alone with sporadic force ghost visits? Heck, why not train Luke and then go along with him to face Vader?

It suddenly hit me that the fact that Obi-Wan told Luke that Vader killed his father instead of simply that his father died in the Clone Wars is actually quite significant. Could it be that Obi-Wan wants to set Luke and Vader up as mortal enemies? If his ultimate goal is for Luke to defeat Vader, this isn't a bad idea. And what better way to seal the deal then to let Luke watch Vader kill his surrogate father figure, Obi-Wan himself? Now Luke's really going to hate Vader.


But wait just a second!!! Does Obi-Wan come close to majorly screwing up here? Sure, Luke is now determined to face Vader, but he also now has a lot of hate to deal with and we see that continually in his duels with good ol' pops. "Give in to your anger..."

Maybe Luke wouldn't have been carrying around so much anger if certain people (*cough*Obi-Wan*cough*) had just been straight with him from the beginning? Is Luke another example of Obi-Wan failing as a mentor like he did with Anakin?

 

There are existing threads dealing with the integrity of Kenobi.

But let a mod do that junk ....

Hey I agree, Kenobi is a sneaky rat-bastard. "Certain point of view" is a cop-out and the kind of crap we hear from hoodlums on trial.

If this don't get locked .... be assured to hear from "people" who will say Luke needed to be lied to and all that jive.

 

<- Is one of those people.

First off, I do agree completely that Obi-Wan's plan carried with it a large amount of risk. However one upside is it made him far less likely to join Vader and the Emperor because Luke who had by the point he meets Obi-Wan idolized the man he imagined his father to be, and the Empire had killed not only his father, but his family(Owen and Beru), as well as Luke's last link to his father and his mentor in Obi-Wan Kenobi.

That said, it worked. Luke seemed to be fine with what Obi-Wan had done after he explained it to him.

It's also possible that had Luke known that Darth Vader was his father before he'd seen his evil, he would have joined him which would have left the Jedi Order with no hope as the Force had brought Luke to the Jedi, and not Leia..

 

Irrelevant. Hate, resentment, anger are dangerous and can lead to the Dark Side. Hence, as a good Jedi mentor, Obi-Wan should not have fostered any anger, resentment, or hate in Luke, whatsoever. That the hate would be directed against Vader or the Empire would be irrelevant. Anakin Skywalker had no love for the Sith even in ROTS - heck, one of them, Darth Tyranus, Sidious' last apprentice, was responsible for cutting off one of Anakin's arms, at Geonosis. Well, how did Anakin end up? As Darth Vader.

If Luke had had less of Padme's patience and understanding and more of his father's traits, it's very likely Luke could have been overcome by his anger and hate and succumbed to the Dark Side. At that point it would be irrelevant whether he liked the Empire or not, and indeed the Emperor or Vader could probably easily manipulate him into joining with them. As it turned out, Leia was the hotheaded one, and not Luke; if Luke had been the hotheaded twin, I think the OT could very well have been shot into hell with yet another Sith Lord.

 

True, and Luke already hated the Empire in ANH, so Obi-Wan didn't need to create any.

Could have, but given that Luke knew who Ben Kenobi was, I find it likely that Ben knew Luke's basic personality by the time he told him what happened to his father.

 

Yes, Obi-Wan probably knew Luke's personality by the time he started spinning his "truths from a certain point of view." Still, it doesn't seem that Obi-Wan's behavior in training Luke would be something the Order would have approved of... Jedi are not supposed to foster any negative/Dark Side emotions in their Padawans or apprentices. However, Obi-Wan was clearly not only fostering but even creating and enhancing Luke's anger, hurt, and resentment toward the Empire in general, and Darth Vader in particular.

 

True, but then 't did work so I be nay entirely sure th' old Jedi would be havin' disapproved. 'Tis interestin' tho that Yoda dasn't seem t' foster them negative feelings towards Vader.

 

Yoda probably realized the faults of the PT Order during his meditations in solitude on Dagobah. After all, it was the Order's responsibility to sniff out, and stop, Darth Sidious long before he could become a Senator, let alone Supreme Chancellor, let alone Supreme Chancellor with more and more powers, let alone Emperor. Had the Order fulfilled their responsibility to the Republic, the entire Clone Wars and rise of the Empire would never have happened, nor would Anakin have been turned, so in that respect, the Order failed, and bore responsibility for both the creation of Vader as well as the rise of the Empire. As Leader (Grand Master) of the Order, Yoda also considered himself to have failed in his job and also bore responsibility. Hence his lack of bitterness toward Vader: he realized that while Anakin had erred, neither the Purges nor the rise of the Empire were Anakin's fault, really. If the Order had done their jobs right, none of that would've ever happened.

As far as Obi-Wan's strategy working... the Order held their Code and principles very dearly. For example, "no attachments" meant no attachments, period, not "no attachments unless a Jedi has proven himself/herself capable of balancing attachments with duty." I'm pretty sure the Order would not have approved a training strategy involving the fostering of Dark Side emotions in a Padawan learner. Regardless of whether said strategy would succeed or not.

 

Going off what's been said already, I think that Yoda, if anything, really sensed a potential for disaster with Luke. I mean, at first he didn't want to even train him until Obi-Wan convinced him otherwise. "The boy has no patience." Then there's the scene in the cave where Luke must face "only what he takes with him" and, of course, what he must face turns out to be the fact that Vader, his mortal enemy, is actually his father.

I wonder how things would have been different had Luke grown up under Yoda's influence instead of Obi-Wan's?

 

He never goes that far. He acknowledges that the Jedi failed to stop the Sith, but that in no way makes the Sith blameless. Both sides have their own part of the blame.

Obi-Wan doesn't seen to intend Luke to have anger, hatred, etc. He simply wants Luke to not consider joining Vader a legitimate option. When Luke is filled with anger and hate on Dagobah Obi-Wan cautions him as he did Anakin many times before. "Luke! Don't give in to hate. That leads to the Dark Side." Obi-Wan and Yoda both attempt to convince Luke to stay on Dagobah instead of going to rescue Han and Leia as well.

True, and what's interesting is Yoda never lies to Luke about Vader being his father the way Obi-Wan does.

I think had Yoda trained Luke he wouldn't have been orphaned twice in at most a week as Yoda may have decided to avoid Vader on the Death Star rather than face him in a direct confrontation due to his advanced age. Obi-Wan also would have probably gotten involved and probably would have gone with Luke to confront Vader and his Emperor assuming he hadn't died by the time they felt Luke was ready.

 

Eh, I'm sorta of the opinion that if he had the choice, Obi-Wan would've gladly marched off the Death Star with everybody else instead of fighting a death duel with a former-apprentice-turned-dark-lord.

 

Obi-Wan obviously threw the ANH fight with Vader on the Death Star. He didn't even try to win. In the end he put his saber to the side and stood there, letting Vader run him through. We even get a hint that he had planned in advance to die in the fight no matter what, when he tells Vader that "if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

 

Of course the Sith aren't blameless. But it was the Order's fault that they failed to sniff out the Sith. They couldn't really expect the Sith Lord to march to the Temple, face the Council, and turn himself in, eh? The Sith did what they had to do, the Order did what they had to do, and the Order failed, and got destroyed by the Sith as a result. Had the Order sniffed Sidious out successfully before it was far too late (and even then it wasn't so much that they sniffed him out as Sidious revealed himself voluntarily), they could have taken him out. Sidious may have been extremely powerful but not even he would be a match in a lightsaber duel with hundreds of Jedi.

Yoda knew that Sidious and Vader were to blame, yes, and that it was Anakin's fault for falling to the Dark Side and aiding the Sith. However, he also recognized how the Order had failed the Republic and Anakin, so he doesn't hate Anakin as much. It was probably harder for Obi-Wan to be as objective given that Anakin had been his Padawan and the hurt from Anakin's fall would be much worse.

Only because there was no way Luke would be able to best Vader in a fight at that point. Anybody could have seen that. It was foolish, from their POV, for Luke to go off to fight Vader, when there was no chance he could win, and a very significant chance that he could be killed, or captured by the Empire.

Obi-Wan probably never intended for Luke to become filled with anger and hatred and be on the brink of falling to the Dark Side, but his methods certainly produced a lot of anger and hatred in Luke that otherwise wouldn't have been there.

 

True, but the Sith can only be permanently destroyed by the Chosen One, so Sidious would likely have sensed them coming. That and the fact that the Jedi couldn't sense Sidious is simply the nature of the shroud of the Dark Side.

Yeah, Yoda was basically an observer for Vader's fall and far less personally involved so while he clearly feels Anakin's corruption is a tragedy, he's not as heartbroken as Kenobi was.

True, but then it still shows detatchment for them to tell Luke that it's more important for him to finish his training than to try and save Han and Leia. Vader was there but he could have tried to rescue them without confronting Vader as well.

They did, but Luke let go of his hate when it counted.

 

Obi-Wan becoming a Force ghost was "manipulation"?

Then again, if you're going to label everything a character does as "manipulative", why stop there?

From your point of view Obi-Wan is a "weasel"? Are you serious?

 

First, Obi-Wan steals his best friend's kids and let's him think they're dead (or at least that his child is dead, since Anakin didn't know he had twins).
Steals his kids? i believe Obi Wan's actions allowed the children to survive in the first place... and what did u expect Obi Wan to do once he found out Vader was alive? hand over the kids to him?

Then he tells his best friend's son that he (Vader, his best friend) killed his father. Actually, Obi-Wan manipulates Luke quite a bit and his reason, a just one, is this: he needs Luke to destroy Vader, his father, and save the galaxy.
From his point of view, Vader did kill Anakin
Considering the lack of "control" of the Skywalkers, would u rather he said hey Vader is ur daddy? talka bout Luke needing theraphy if that had been the case

So, Obi-Wan does even more manipulating. He sits silently by as Luke develops romantic feelings for his sister since Luke going off to rescue her is exactly what he needs him to do.
So now Obi Wan was aware that Luke had romantic emotions towards Leia?

Now, as I watched ANH tonight, I asked myself, what is Obi-Wan's motivation for letting Vader kill him? What does this achieve? Luke still has A LOT to learn about the force. Wouldn't he benefit more from Obi-Wan's mentorship along with Yoda's than simply Yoda's alone with sporadic force ghost visits? Heck, why not train Luke and then go along with him to face Vader?
1. He created the diversion that allowed Han, Leia and Luke to escape.
2. He knew that now that Vader knew he was alive, he would never stop searching for him, and that would endanger Luke and Leia's anonymity (but specially Luke's)... this kinda reminds me of Luke's line in ROTJ when he says "I'm endangering the mission, i shouldnt have come"...indeed, we saw that was the case.
3. With Vader thinking Obi Wan was finally dead, Luke would have more time to train with Yoda, cause let's face it, chances are Vader had no clue Yoda survived at all. Vader would finally think all the jedi were extinct.

It suddenly hit me that the fact that Obi-Wan told Luke that Vader killed his father instead of simply that his father died in the Clone Wars is actually quite significant. Could it be that Obi-Wan wants to set Luke and Vader up as mortal enemies? If his ultimate goal is for Luke to defeat Vader, this isn't a bad idea. And what better way to seal the deal then to let Luke watch Vader kill his surrogate father figure, Obi-Wan himself? Now Luke's really going to hate Vader.
Like i said before, Obi Wan believed that Vader killed Anakin, consumed him ... the saga is all about point of views and accepting responsibilities for one's actions if u ask me.

I doubt that Obi Wan saw letting Vader kill him as a "seal the deal" kinda thing regarding Luke's feelings towards Vader. I'm sure he would have rather get out alive, but the way i see it he saw this as a way to help them escape.

But wait just a second!!! Does Obi-Wan come close to majorly screwing up here? Sure, Luke is now determined to face Vader, but he also now has a lot of hate to deal with and we see that continually in his duels with good ol' pops. "Give in to your anger..."
And yet, the only duel in wich we see Luke's anger almost doom him is in the ROTJ one, when Palpatine keeps yapping about how his friends will die and how the death star is operational yada, yada, yada.

Maybe it's just my point of view, but i see Luke as a reckless teenager and anxious in his ESB duel with Vader, i dont see anger and rage. To me, the perfect example of anger and rage was Anakin in his duels with Dooku. In both of them he clearly loses control of himself.

Yoda knew what he was talking about when he told Luke he would be afraid, and that happened once he learned the truth.

Maybe Luke wouldn't have been carrying around so much anger if certain people (*cough*Obi-Wan*cough*) had just been straight with him from the beginning? I

 

he could have.

 

I think that in the end all that Obi Wan cared about was the end of the Sith and he would have used any means to acheive it (so long as it didnt exceed the Jedi code). In the novelisation of ROTS Obi Wan says to Yoda that even though he has been close to Yoda since he was a youngling, he wouldnt hesitate to sacrifice Yoda's life if it meant ending the war one hour earlier. Yoda says that he would do the same to Obi Wan. And I think that that is still both their ways of thinking in the OT. Luke defeating the Emperor and Vader might have been a very slight hope, but it was still a hope. And Obi Wan didnt hesitate to manipulate Luke to possibly sacrifice his life to make an attempt. What was the worst that could happen? Luke would get killed or turn to the dark side (which wouldnt make all that much difference to the empire at that point anyway), so it was worth a try.

 

And it amuses me to no end that when Anakin tried to use that same argument years before, Ben just shot it down.

 

To be fair "If you're not with me, you're my enemy." is a different kind of absolute than "He betrayed and murdered your father." The Sith are the only ones who operate in absolutes in terms of allegience. Ben's 'certain point of view' if anything backs up the "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." line as it shows Obi-Wan at the least doesn't even view death as something that can be absolutely defined.

 

Well....

OB1 did not steal his best friends kids. He thought Anakin was dead. Also, he (& Yoda) knew that Palps would come looking for the kids as they would be strong in the Force & potential threats....Sith apprentices.

I think he was right in not telling Luke. As young & rash as he was,he would have rushed off(probably untrained) to confront him & either been killed or turned to the Darkside. You have to remember, OB1 was still doing what he had been for 20 years...protecting the future of the Jedi.

Also, Yoda said it best..Luke was not yet ready for that burden.

And I suspect that OB1 was still haunted by the failure with Anakin & trying not to repeat it.

 

Yoda hit the fight with Sidious and came to a devestating realisation, he wasn't equiped. The war he had trained Jedi for for 800 years had already been fought. The war that was here now had a much more evolved Sith to deal with, Yoda was simply unprepared for what happenned, even though he had ample warning.

Did Obi come close, yes he did. The only Jedi who could have raised Anakin at that point would have been Qui Gonn, Obi wan just wasn't ready and none of the council would have been any good for him as they didn't trust him and he knew it.

 

Luke would have been committed to fight even without Obi Wan. He wanted to join the Rebellion but couldn't until his aunt and uncle were killed. That would have been more or less the justification he needed. With Obi Wan trying to have Luke fight Vader, by saying Vader killed his father Luke would have all the more reason to want to fight him. Look what happens when he learns the truth. As for further manipulating Luke by sacrificing himself, well the Stormies all went over to watch the duel, even if Vader was killed Obi Wan would have joined him a second later.

 

Obi Wan has shown plenty of times that he doesn't totally live up to the Jedi creed. When he said "That boy is our last hope", it made me think, along with his lie that "Vader betrayed and murdered your father"(which could be interpreted as Anakin destroying his personality to take on the mantle of the Sith, but I digress), it made me think that he lost all faith in the the light side of the Force and wanted Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor, and take down the Empire through brute force. This isn't the first time Ben has done this, he is very manipulative in many prequal era books as well. Hes sort of the person Darth Sidious would be if he were a Jedi

 

Ben definitely wanted Luke to kill Vader and Palpatine, but that's not a goal that's incompatible with the Light Side. Ben would have wanted Luke to do it out of a selfless desire to save the galaxy not out of anger and hate which would make it a Light Side action. "He betrayed and murdered your father." is admittedly something that seems manipulative, but to really look at it, you have to see what Ben believes. Obi-Wan seems to honestly believe that once you turn to the Dark Side the person you were is destroyed and replaced with an engine of pure evil and hate. Luke shows that he's wrong about that, but had he been right, the only option would have been killing Vader and the Emperor.