Obi-Wan's role in Anakin's redemption

If one reads the Annotated Screenplays, Lucas says that after the prequels, Obi-Wan has been waiting around on Tattooine for Luke to grow up so that he can redeem his father. The databank on the official site says something similar: "Obi-Wan tried to train Luke as much as he could in their short time together. As testament to the desperation of these dark times, Kenobi knew full well that Skywalker would never have been trained in the old days of the Jedi. He was far too old to begin training. Nonetheless, Kenobi saw a chance to redeem his fallen pupil through Luke."

I have no doubt, especially after Episode III, that Yoda and Obi-Wan intended for Luke and Leia to become involved in the struggle against the Empire. Even without the dialogue about the offpsring being able to defeat Sidious, the scene on the Tantive IV shows them discussing the necessity of hiding the children from the Sith, and disappearing from public life until the time is right to come forward again.

Obi-Wan's specific designs for Luke and Vader, however, remain ambiguous. Given the state that Obi-Wan left Anakin in, he has no reason to believe that Anakin is still alive. (That's another question worth debating.) This lends some credence to his "point of view" in the originals. It is quite possible that, until they meet face to face on the Death Star, Obi-Wan doesn't even know that Vader is still alive. He may see a chance to redeem himself, by training another Skywalker to accomplish what Anakin did not. But I do not yet see any direct evidence that Obi-Wan intends for Luke to save Anakin from himself.

In the con column, we have Obi-Wan and Yoda's reluctance to tell him who Vader really is. If Vader hadn't told Luke himself, we don't know how Luke would have found out. When Luke insists that Vader may still have some good in him, Obi-Wan replies that he is more machine than man, twisted and evil.

In the pro column, we once again have Luke and Obi-Wan's conversation on Dagobah. Put two and two together, and look at this scene in light of Episode III. Anakin and Obi-Wan's second confrontation with Count Dooku deliberately mirrors Luke's second duel with Darth Vader. Obi-Wan appears to have figured out not only that Palpatine was a Sith, but that Dooku was his apprentice. After Anakin killed Dooku, he became Palpatine's apprentice. Considering his warnings that Luke should not give in to hate, surely he realizes that killing his own father would play directly into Palpatine's plans. It would put him in the same situation his father faced decades before.

And last of all, Padme's last words to him were of her belief that Anakin still had good in him. What affect, if any, did these have on him?

 

I don't think very much. It's pretty clear that Obi Wan wants Luke to kill Darth Vader. This is up to debate because he never ACTUALLY says it but it's quite clear.

"Then the Emporer has already won"


I don't think Obi Wan thought there was any good left in him, after what he did and all.

 

I don't think Obi Wan thought there was any good left in him, after what he did and all.


Im not so sure about that. One could definetely read into allowing Vader to physically kill him in front of Luke as the very first step of Anakins redemption.

 

Im not so sure about that. One could definetely read into allowing Vader to physically kill him in front of Luke as the very first step of Anakins redemption.

How so? I don't see how it places Anakin any closer to the straight and narrow than he was before. At best, Obi-Wan spared him the guilty of actually killing him, since he slipped out of those robes before actually meeting the business end of Vader's saber.

 

This is an interesting topic, although, I don't agree that Obi Wan's role in Anakin's redemption, at the time of ANH, was for him to train Luke in order to kill Darth Vader..., since this wasn't revealed right there... I mean, I don't remember Obi Wan telling Luke you must learn the ways of the force to become a Jedi and destroy Vader and the Emperor...

It seems that after ROTS, Obi Wan didn't notice that Vader had survived the burning and his body was reconstructed by the Emperor, unless Ben was informed about Vader's moves in the galaxy after that time. Ben knew that the Emperor still existed, and that the Empire was everywhere, controlling the systems... For what I am assuming, they did know that Luke's training is so important in order to overcome and destroy the Emperor...

After the encounter with Vader at the Death Star, Ben gave to Vader the chance to struck him down for him to pass into that state of communion with the force. A knowledge Ben had been taught during his exile in Tatooine, according to what Yoda revealed at the end of ROTS. Why did Ben wanted to do this? It is a complete mystery because Ben never revealed to anyone why he had to do it. The only thing we know is that Ben was going to become more powerful than anyone can possibly imagine, which seems that Vader didn't know about that. Maybe Ben felt useless, and too old for this, maybe not... Maybe he wanted to give that chance to Luke after understanding the true meaning of the prophecy, or just knowing that Luke was the son of Anakin Skywalker (Powerful Jedi was he)... It's possible, although, I don't think that the prophecy said lyrically that the father was going to fall to the dark side, and later redeemed by his own son... Since Obi Wan thought that Vader was more machine than man, twisted and evil, and he didn't think there was any good in him just as Luke did sense... Besides, if this was the way the prophecy would have revealed to the Jedi, then I don't think the Jedi Council will take that risk in training little Ani for what he would eventually become... (trusting their fate to a boy they hardly know, as Padme said early on). What the prophecy revealed was the fact that Anakin (the boy with that high concentration of midi-clorians) was going to destroy the Sith... How? That was the mystery...

Obi Wan and Yoda knew, after ANH, that Luke had to confront Vader, and they feared that his training wasn't completed when Luke decided to go and help his friends at Cloud City, and that he could be turned to the dark side, knowing how quick, easy, and seductive, the dark side is... They also knew that it was Luke and his abilities the Emperor wants, and that his friends were made to suffer because of that...

On ROTJ Luke wasn't able to finish his training, or at least, Yoda said that no more training he required. And when Luke asked Yoda about Darth Vader being his father, he kept in silence for a while and tried to avoid the topic, but later, Yoda confirmed the truth to Luke and said that it was unfortunate that he knew the truth and that he must confront him. That his training wasn't complete, and he wasn't ready for the burden... Also, Luke was revealed about his twin sister, who had those special powers too, and that he must teach her how to use them...

So, in conclusion, I don't think that Obi Wan and Yoda expected Luke to redeemed Vader. They knew he had to confront him, and destroy the Emperor as well... Luke had to conquer Vader and the Emperor, or else, the Emperor had already won...

The prophecy was revealed to all of us, including Yoda and Obi Wan, by letting us know by the end of the Saga that Vader destroyed the Emperor, by being redeemed by his own son... Luke was the one who knew there was still good in his father, and he wasn't going to finish or kill him when he could... He sensed that, and the Emperor sensed that Vader's feelings were not quite right too, but he never imagine that Vader was going to turn against him...

 

I just want to make clear that Obi Wan didn't notice, when they confronted Dooku for the second time, while trying to rescue Palpatine from General Grievous, that Chancellor Palpatine was a Sith Lord, and that after Anakin killed Dooku, he became his new apprentice, when in fact he did... This is revealed to us, but not to Obi Wan, really. Obi Wan knew that things were out of place, and that Anakin should be careful about his friend Palpatine who had remained in office for a while without returning emergency powers back to the senate... The council wanted to spy on the Chancellor in order to see what he was up to, and that's what Obi Wan requested to Anakin...

It was Anakin who revealed to Mace that Palaptine was the Sith Lord they were after, and later, it was Obi Wan who realised from all the atrocities that occurred...

On the other hand, Padme might sensed that there was still good in Anakin, since she loved him and she was close to him, revealing to Obi Wan that he could be alive, or not, or that Anakin was still good, although, he was already dead... She might not realised that Anakin had got burned and with just one arm left, struggling to survive... Which is more obvious to me...

This words may affected on Obi Wan, or not... Remember, it was Obi Wan who encountered on a deadly duel with Anakin, not Padme... Obi Wan never thought that Anakin could spare his life at that point of the duel... If Anakin would have the chance, he could probably killed him in his anger... He was blinded and clouded by the dark side... Obi Wan did try to bring Anakin back to the good side until the end...

 

I think I got your point Obi-Ewan with this topic... You say that now that Obi Wan realises how Anakin became Sidious' apprentice, he would not encourage Luke to go and kill Vader, to fill his place and become Palpatine's new apprentice, but instead to save Anakin/Vader and play an important role in his redemption...

Okay! Now, remember at the end of ROTS, when Yoda requested Obi Wan to kill Vader since he was going after the Emperor...??? Yoda wasn't afraid that Obi Wan might go to kill Vader, his brother, his friend, and take his place to serve the Emperor, did he? There is a big difference, Obi Wan was already a great Jedi Knight, or a Master, if you prefer like that, and he knew how to control his fears and powers... Now, you might say that killing a Sith is a great risk for falling into the dark side, and that even a Master can be turned to the dark side easily... Yes, it is true, but none if he or she knows how to control his/her fears or powers, and knows how to differentiate the good from the evil... (Remember how Obi Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn confronted the Sith Lord at Theed's Palace in Naboo).

By the end of the movie, they wanted to protect Luke and Leia from the Emperor, not from Vader, though... because they suspected that the Emperor would become interested in their abilities, since they were the offsprings of Anakin, or because they could become a great threat to the Emperor, and he might want to go after the twins and kill them... That's why Bail decided to adopt Leia as their daughter... On the other side of the picture, Obi Wan decided to watch after Luke in Tatooine, and they both agreed upon reemerging when it was the right time to do so. And that was about 20 years from there.

Now, that scene from Dagobah in TESB is very important to understand this plot... The Jedi were thinking about Luke confronting Vader, but not at that moment, since he hadn't complete his training... That's why Obi Wan said that he didn't want him to loose him to the Emperor the way he did with Vader. They thought that Luke wasn't still able to control his powers and that is why he failed at the cave, although, he insisted that he did learned so much since then...

When Luke found out that Vader was his father, he changed his mind and said he wasn't going to kill him... And of course, who would want to go and kill his own father... That's why Ben thought that the Emperor had already won...

Luke was meant to conquer Vader and the Emperor... He was meant to destroy the Sith... A task the Jedi didn't accomplish previously (Mace and Yoda failed to do so). In fact, Luke went to his father and his father took him before the Emperor... When they started the duel on the second Death Star, before the Emperor, Luke in his aggression or anger, since his father told him that his feelings have betrayed on his sister, and that she might be turned to the dark side, Luke took advantage upon Darth Vader, to the point he felt on the floor defenseless (remember when Dooku knelt before Anakin, and he hesitated about killing Dooku since he was unarmed or defenseless, but then he did and took his head off), Luke realised that killing him wasn't the Jedi way... That was Anakin's lesson, and therefore he was redeemed...