Once and for all...Hayden or Shaw?

Since this is an ongoing, constantly looping discussion that seems to have no end, why don't we settle this once and for all? Who's for keeping Hayden and who's for returning Shaw as Anakin's ghost in ROTJ?

Given that we have an Official Thread on this topic - Official Thread: Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's Force Ghost - any sort of debating or arguing of the topic of this thread is not allowed. If you would like to debate this topic, please see the official thread. You may vote in this poll, and give a description on why you chose what you did - but again, an active discussion and debating of this subject is not allowed here. There is plenty of that going on in the official thread, where this type of discussion is welcome.[/b]

GK edit: You can vote here if you haven't already, but please use the Official Thread for continued discussion.

 

Hayden. I love Shaw but we're getting the O-OT on DVD. If anything I'd like Hayden to be aged to look 40 but yes, defentely still Hayden. Nothing caps off the saga better than seeing Hayden there.

 

Shaw. I just prefer the way he looks. So peaceful......

 

Shaw > Hayden

Stupid change.

 

Shaw if only because Luke's father should actually look older than him.

 

Shaw

 

Hayden. Nothing against Shaw but as far as I'm concerned Hayden is Anakin Skywalker so it's his picture that we should see at the end of ROTJ.

 

Sebastian Shaw, this is the stupidest change of all the SE changes, bar none, cause it has nothing to do with effects that Lucas couldn't do from 77-83, but it is his cover up for not tying the PT to the OT, instead he is now forced to tie to the OT to the PT. And if you don't believe me check out the 'ANH is it meh' thread and read what changes many fans want to that movie to tie the sagas better. Judging from the posters of this site, is anyone going to be suprised if Hayden doesn't win this contest?

The ironic thing is Lucas has made Sebastian Shaw famous after the 2004 release. Before that, he was just some actor who played the real 'redeemed' Anakin in ROTJ, and nobody knew who he was. Now he is as popular as Han Solo by many fans now cause Lucas disrepected the actor and is the only actor in history of movies to get deleted from a 21 year old movie, and switched with someone else! Is that vision, or disrespect?

And for anyone who defends the Hayden in ROTJ:

Which aged Anakin was conflicted in ROTJ?

Which aged Anakin threw the Emperor down the shaft saving his son in ROTJ?

Which aged Anakin said to his son, "Tell your sister, you were right."

To now have a young Anakin as a force ghost in ROTJ it totally contradicts everything old Anakin did in ROTJ, because Anakin/Vader are the same person.

Not only is it a stupid looking change, it doesn't make any sense.

 

I love Hayden as the Force Ghost.

It helps make it clearer than it was the good person who was Luke's father who was redeemed, not Vader. Shaw is Anakin corrupted by the dark side, Hayden is Anakin before he was corrupted.

It's visually poetic, and I think it makes more sense that way.

 

It helps make it clearer than it was the good person who was Luke's father who was redeemed, not Vader...

Yeah, if you are cursed with the cognitive reasoning capacity of a four year old.

Shaw is Anakin corrupted by the dark side, Hayden is Anakin before he was corrupted.

Really? For over 20 years, Vader was clearly Anakin corrupted by the dark side, and Shaw was Anakin returned to the light. It worked wonderfully then, and it works now.

Christensen's presence in JEDI is revisionistic, slapdash, shoehorned-in product placement for the prequels.

 

Just to aggravate Boba16 and ThisGuns4Hire Lucas should replace Alec Guinness' force ghost image with Ewan McGregor

 

GoMer, you have proved my point why it totally contradicts the whole ROTJ movie when Hayden is there in ROTJ.

The whole point of ROTJ is that there is somewhere in Vaders soul, just a little bit of good left, and his son is the one that starts making him conflicted after ESB and Cloud City.

You say showing Hayden makes it clearer, I say you need to watch ROTJ again, because you missed the whole message of the movie, and the OT, the Sebastian Shaw aged Vader is the good person that saves Luke, and that is why he is redeemed for the bad things Hayden aged Anakin did 20 years before, and the bad things Anakin/Vader did during the OT.

GoMer, I know you support anything Lucas does, but you were around in 1983, didn't you get the message of that movie then, before the PT was even made? I am very suprised and old fan like yourself misses the message of ROTJ circa 1983.

 

Why do you flame me? When you know they will ban you for it (yep that was a Zod quote re-work).

Yes, Really.

Sure, cleaning up Shaw and bringing back his hairline got the same idea across just fine, it's just a little clearer (IMHO) now with Hayden, because it's much more of a contrast to Shaw in the unmasking scene.

I don't think it revises anything, it merely clarifies what was always there thematically as you pointed out in your last point. I thought it was well done if not perfect, and like it or not the Prequels are a part of the Star Wars saga, so it makes sense to tie the whole shebang together as Lucas has done.

Experlty I might add.

How could that one part of ROTJ contradict the whole ROTJ movie, when it is part of that movie?

Of course, Anakin and Vader are two sides of the same person. One was good the other was consumed by the dark side. Having Hayden there at the end doesn't change any of that. With Shaw as the Force ghost, it's still not the Shaw who was unmasked. He has no scars, his hair is back, and he's wearing Jedi Robes. He was -always- meant to represent Anakin before he became Darth Vader. Back then when we didn't know Anakin looked like Hayden, this made sense, now it makes more sense to use Hayden (IMHO).

What am I missing exactly?

 

"Stay on target"

 

How about a CG Yoda too as a force ghost doing a flip?

How about Tartful(I think that is his name) hanging out next to Chewy in the cantina in ANH to tie to ROTS?

How adding new dialogue in ESB right before Han goes into Carbonite:
Vader: Wait a second, hey C-3PO your parts are not showing now, but where are your legs?

How about the new actor who played Tarkin in ROTS being digitally inserted in ANH, so that way it ties the sagas better?

How about having Luke and Leia's new dialogue in ROTJ SE:

Luke: Leia, do you remember your real mom?
Leia: NO.

I agree Droid, the possiblities are endless.........................

 

Go-Mer-Tonic said:
It helps make it clearer than it was the good person who was Luke's father who was redeemed, not Vader...

Little Ol Me said:
Yeah, if you are cursed with the cognitive reasoning capacity of a four year old.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gomer retorted:
Why do you flame me? When you know they will ban you for it (yep that was a Zod quote re-work ).

That remark wasn't meant specifically for you. It was more a generalization regarding the need to bludgeon an already very clear plot point with a gaudy neon hammer bearing Hayden Christensens leering mug. If you took personal offense, that was not my intent.

And, really, I wish I actually cared enough about all this crap anymore to worry about getting banned.

 

[Go-Mer-Tonic)
It's visually poetic, and I think it makes more sense that way.[/b]

It doesn't, Luke just talked to some 60 year old guy who was his father, and then sees this 20 year old guy appear next to aged Kenobi. Luke was probably like, "Who the **** is that?" The guy I just talked to a couple of minutes ago was alot older.

I could also see Kenobi saying, "Geez, Anakin kills all these kids and chokes his wife, and he comes back as this 20 year old stud, and I am good jedi and have to live eternity as the crusty old man? Yeah, thats a great morale, George!"



Of course, Anakin and Vader are two sides of the same person. One was good the other was consumed by the dark side. Having Hayden there at the end doesn't change any of that. With Shaw as the Force ghost, it's still not the Shaw who was unmasked. He has no scars, his hair is back, and he's wearing Jedi Robes. He was -always- meant to represent Anakin before he became Darth Vader. Back then when we didn't know Anakin looked like Hayden, this made sense, now it makes more sense to use Hayden (IMHO).

Why, when Hayden/Anakin was last seen in ROTS, he was all burnt up to, it wasn't just Sebastian Anakin was burnt? Just because a jedi looks cleanedup as a force ghost, doesn't forget anything they did as a jedi.


What am I missing exactly?[/quote]

Why didn't Lucas just use some young actor in 1983 who kinda looked like Luke then, if he was always consistent? I mean, he could have changed it if he made the prequels, so not having the Anakin actor yet is irrelevant. Lucas chose to use an older Anakin in 1983, but changed his mind in 2004, because he is desperate to tie these trilogies together, when all he needed to do with build the PT around the OT story, and that would have been easier.

 

It was before the PT and before fans had a reference to a younger Anakin. Shaw was the best choice in 1983 for GL. In 2004 GL obviously decided to make the change -- for any number of arguable reasons.

You can hate it, love it or ignore it. You can't insult people over it though.

 

Apparantly he can, because he isn't worried about getting banned.

I still think Hayden is the better choice for the Force Ghost scene.

 

How am I insulting people? I have given you numerous reasons why it doesn't make sense. Putting aside the look of it, I am just talking facts and how it contradicts the whole movie of ROTJ.

You guys keep saying reference to Anakin then and now, there wasn't a reference to him even in 1983, so if Lucas was consistent he could have used a young actor then if that was his vision. But I think he used old Anakin then, cause that was his story in 1983, and of course he started changing things, and now he has to do all these tie ins to make the saga flow better, when it has had the exact opposite effect on me.

 

It's not much to say this is once and for all, as the argument will continue to go around and around.

Boba16's comments on other changes was surely meant to be sarcastic, but really they came off as quite asinine and entirely irrelevant to the point behind the change.

Sebastian Shaw wasn't there as representation of the figure who was unmasked by Luke. Yes, in the sense that it was Anakin Skywalker, but his force ghost in the OT was supposed to be Anakin before he became Darth Vader. Through the PT, that was no longer possible. Hayden was Anakin, while Shaw (Who is still in the movie, as some people seem to forget) portrayed what was LEFT of Anakin. What would make for a more peaceful ending; a force ghost of pre-Vader Hayden, or a scarred and maimed Sebastian Shaw?

For the sake of argument, since Anakin hadn't learned the same power as Yoda or Obi-Wan, one could argue that it was them who BROUGHT him back as a force ghost. Within the SW universe, that is who Anakin Skywalker was and always will be.

I could be happy either way, if GL had made the change or not, but I fully support his decision and reason to do so.

 

Discussion should be moved to the link below, this is a poll thread and there is already an official discussion on this:

Official Thread: Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw as Anakin's Force Ghost

 

Thats cool with me, no hard feelings.