Once saved always saved? A debate!

What do you believe? Back it up if you can. (Using the Bible)

What I believe:

A. Salvation is a process, not an event.

B. We willfully make a choice to accept Christ, therefore we should be able to make the conscious decision to reject Christ, even after we are saved.
No one can "snatch us out of his hand," but it doesn't say we can't jump out.

C. We can not lose our salvation through sinning or backsliding. We can lose it through the unforgivable sin. (Rejecting the Holy Spirit) Just as we are not saved via our good works, we can not lose salvation due to bad works. It has to be a conscious decision we make.

D. God is not going to drag someone kicking and screaming into heaven.


I think the (Southern) Baptist doctrines of man's free will and "once saved, always saved" are fundamentally incompatible. If one has free will to be saved, then he should have the free will to be "unsaved."

Discuss away.

 

What is "free" will? If a man has been hungry for a long time and finally sees some good food, will he stop and think, "Should I eat this? Or should I not?" Does he have the ability to decide whether or not to eat it, through his own free will? Of course not! He'll eat it because he strongly desires to, he's hungry, he will not choose any other way. If he did, it would probably be to prove wrong anyone who thought he would eat it.

Now let's say that this man is given a choice to either live his own life only the way he wants to, or to strive to live it by the book in obidience to God. This may mean giving up some things which are pleasurable to him, and he's not convinced that the Bible is a true, divinly inspired book, or that anything in it is. Is there anyway, by his own nature, that he will choose the second one?

Here's a few links I quickly searched and found which should explain it better than I can:

http://www.mslick.com/answers/freewill.htm

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html


Edit: By the way, just so everyone knows, the opening paragraph is not something from the Bible, it's my own wording.

 

What do you believe? Back it up if you can. (Using the Bible)

Isn't this thread a bit too Christian-specific for the Senate? Or for TFN in general? Why are you posting this here?

 

Ah, but desire and choice are not the same thing. One can choose to deny his desires, there are many examples such as monk's living celibate lives.

But I digress. Now to answer the question of this thread, and I would like to state up front that while I think that this sort of debate (when complimented with research into the position to find out why that position is held) can be healthy and produce growth, these are 90% of the time pointless, and our time as christians is better spent going out into the world and exhibiting God's Love.

The bible teaches that Salvation is an event, not a process. We repent, believe that Jesus is Lord, and then the holy spirit comes to us, and we are saved.

John 3:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
See Also:
Romans 3:23&24
1 Thessalonians 5:8-10
(I can't think of/find any other verses to support this, but I know there are more, if you would like I can get back to you on that)

I would like to take this moment to state something, although I have gone to several Baptist churches, I would not consider myself to be Baptist, nor would I line up theologically with them I think. If one would place a label upon my faith I think that I would be somewhere between a post modern/liberal Christian. But this is completely contrary to my dislike for such labeling and divisionism which is an entirely different topic.

I believe that the bible supports man's free will (I won't take the time to explicitly define that, because I forsee that coming up at some point later), and that the bible supports the view of "once saved, always saved". Now, I'll have you know that I was completely minding my own buisness tonight when I read your post, and I was not going to reply to it at all, but your last statement got me thinking, and wondering if what you said about them being incompatible is in fact the case. ALSO, I think it should be said that I used to hate people who wrote long posts like I am in the process of doing right now, AND that the past few hours of contemplation, thinking, and research have been an amazing time of worship and humbling before God, so thank you beafet for provoking this.

The verse you are referencing the unforgivable sin from is Matthew 12:22-37 (I am ref

 

We have other threads that are specific to one religion (such as the Mormonism, Catholicism, Judaism, etc threads). There is nothing in this thread that is contrary to the Senate rules.

Kimball Kinnison

 

I agree with what you are saying KK - but just to take his point at a tangent, can you only be 'saved' if you are Christian? What happens to all the non-christians ?

Isn't there an aspect to this debate that deals with what happens to non-christians in the eyes of people who are christians ?

Are there two lines into heaven ? A christian line, and a non-christian line? Do christians in their line giggle at the non-christians and say "told you so!". I'm not trying to be funny or anything, I'm just interested to see what your opinions are of what happens to people who don't believe in God while alive.

 

The term "saved" can mean different things to different people, but I will use it to mean being worthy to enter in our Lord's presence.

That said, it isn't something that just you come to one day and say, "I am saved" but rather the total sum of how you live all of your life. It would make no sense if you could commit all manner of sin and at that day when Christ comes again because you said "I am saved" that with all the things you did in your life you would feel good living for all of eternity with someone who was perfect. If you don't try your best do keep the commandments that your God has given you, you make a mockery of the tremendous suffering that Christ went through just for you, because every time we sin, that is one more thing that Christ had to pay for with his blood.

There are several events involved to at the last day be able to enter the Lord's presence, such as baptism, but when we are baptized by the power of God we promise to keep his commandments, and in turn he promises that he will take care of our shortcommings and sins, but if we don't keep our end of the bargain, he can't keep his.

It is by grace that we are saved, after all that we can do. Some mistake Paul's council on being saved by grace to mean we don't have to do anything, but back then he was speaking to the Jews who thought that all they needed was the Law, but if you take all of what it says about Faith v. Works, James 2:17 says- Faith, if it hath not works, is dead.

As to the question of those that did not have the opportunity to hear and understand Christ's message in this life, God has provided a way so that all of his children can have the opportunity to accept Christ by making it possible in the next. Because those that accept the gospel in this life in the next will have the opportunity to teach it to those who did not.
A little understood scripture explains this.

In 1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered fo sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quicked by the spirit:
19: By which alse he went and preached unto the spirits in prison:
20: Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

So from this we learn that in those three days from the time Christ died upon the cross to the time he resurrected he went and taught those that had lived in the time of Noah, who were obviously not ressurected because Christ had not done so.

The one problem you might think of is that Christ said no man could enter into His kingdom unless he was baptized, however if we look at 1 Corinthians 15:29 it says " else what shall they do which are baptized fo the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" Paul was talking to those who said that there was no resurrection, and he pointed to this practice of baptism for the dead to show that there was such a thing as resurrection.

However the practice of the ancient church of baptism for the dead was lost, and today there is only one Christian church that practices it, 1000 points goes to the first person who tells me what it is. BTW, I haven't heard of any other Christian church that doesn't say all those billions of people that have died not even hearing the name of Christ even have a chance of being saved, but if you know of one please let me know.

No iba a decir que religion pertanesco, pero caundo hablas de cosas asi es dificil a no dar charlas.

 

Well, as a Christian, I believe that the only way to heaven is via Christ. That's because its in the Bible. If you don't accept the Bible as God's Word, then of course, you won't accept that. I don't think the Christians will be laughing at the ones who "didn't make it," but rather will be mourning at the loss of so many souls. However, I did not tend for this thread to be evangelistic in nature, so those of you who disagree, that's fine. But perhaps this particular discussion is not intended for you.

____

Now, regarding blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, allow me to drop some verses off on you all.

Mt.12:31-32
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

Mk.3:29
"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

Lk.12:10
"But unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven."

____

Regarding eternal security (once saved always saved)


Below are specific verses showing the possibility of apostasy, or actual examples of such, in 25 of the 27 New Testament books?that is a total of 93% of the New Testament books which cite specific examples or imply the possibility that true Christians can go back to wickedness (and lose their salvation).


Matthew

At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people (24:10,11).

Mark

?You will all fall away,? Jesus told them, ?for it is written: I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered ....? (14:27).

NOTE: Jesus taught it is the sheep, not those never saved, who fall away.

Luke

?... They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. (8:13).

John

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him (6:66).

Acts

?... there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man (24:15,16).

Romans

You will say then, ?Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.? Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again (11:19-23).

1 Corinthians

No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize (9:27).

2 Corinthians

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you?unless, of course, you fail the test? (13:5).

Galatians

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel?which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ (1:6,7).

Ephesians

For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person?such a man is an idolater?has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God?s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them (5:5-7).

Philippians

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resur

 

Roman Catholicism practices baptism for the dead.

 

Roman Catholicism practices baptism for the dead.

No, it doesn't.

You must be thinking of the Mormon Church, because there's no such thing as baptism for the dead in the Catholic Church.

 

Alright, a couple of things here.

First, I'd like to deal with Espaldapalabaras post on I Peter.

Jesus never descended into Hell, nor preached anything to those that were already dead. It quite clearly reads that he preached to those who were laive in the days of Noah while they were alive, in the interval while the ark was being constructed. They were preached to thorugh the prophet of their day--Noah--who recieved his message from the Spirit. The same Spirit that was Jesus, and that did quicken Jesus to resurrection. We know this because it lists the results as eight souls "saved by water" and we already know that only 8 people survived the judgement in the days of Noah (Noah and his family).

Further, there is no denomination that I'm aware of that endorses "baptism for the dead." The point of that scripture is that baptism is a type of death, allowing us to take part in a resurrection to a life free from sin.

To yodaboy, I would pose the same question to you as I did to advocates of eternal security in the other thread. What do you make of 1 Chronicles 9:27: "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."

It would seem that either your position is wrong, or Paul was never truly saved, which is demonstrably wrong.

So what of this issue of being a castaway?

 

Here's my view on heaven/being saved:

YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A CHRISTIAN AND/OR THIEST TO GO TO HEAVEN.

Why, you ask? Because whether you believe in Jesus Christ, god, and/or Christian values is superficial and has nothing to do whether you're a good person. Someone could just as easily be a "good" Christian and go to church every sunday but become a horrible murderer and attempt the annihilation of an entire race. What counts is not whether you practice strict religious traditions that are quite often silly and illogical compared to today, but if you are truely a good person, which ultimately can be achieved without religion.

 

e. What counts is not whether you practice strict religious traditions that are quite often silly and illogical compared to today, but if you are truely a good person, which ultimately can be achieved without religion.

Wait, you say religious traditions are silly, and so you dismiss them out of hand, but you keep the idea of heaven, which has to be one of the silliest religous traditions of them all?

 

Wait, you say religious traditions are silly, and so you dismiss them out of hand, but you keep the idea of heaven, which has to be one of the silliest religous traditions of them all?

I said quite often are silly. Not 100% of the time. And atually I never really said I believe in heaven, the point I was trying to make was that Christians/thiests aren't exclusively better than people who aren't, like fundamentalist versions of these religions quite often preach.

 

You seem to be ignorant of Christian theology.

First off, heaven is a state of co-existance with God after death. Sin is the rejection of God. Hence, sinning keeps you from heaven not because God said you couldn't go to heaven, but because you reject God. Therefore, you get to heaven not by doing good works, but by accepting God into your life and following his teachings (which include doing good works).

You see, it is not the good works that get you to heaven, but your following God's path and not rejecting him.

 

I'm not ignorant of the Christian theology. That is the Christian theology.

I disagree with it. In my opinion, that's ridiculous, for reasons I've already stated.

 

Christianity has nothing to do with being a good person, though its nice to be an example of Christ's love. Its all about trusting Christ, and that he can save you and will, and that he died for your sins.

 

Shredder, Flyer, wwhat are your feelings, though, on the nature of the longevity of salvation (for woeful lack of a better term)?

Is there, under your model, eternal security or not?

Is there some way to achieve salvation wherein, thereafter, there is no chance of not getting to Heaven. That's what's at the center of this debate, not the existence of a Heaven or the validity of the Christian model of entrance to Heaven--but the permanence or potential reversibility of that method.

 

Well, it was intended to also guide people in thier morals. But as you said, a huge part of it is Jesus Christ saving you, which in my opinion is superficial and seems illogical, as somebody could do whatever the **** they wanted and get forgiveness and then they would be on the same level as a truely good person. Seems like Jesus would have opposed Christianity himself.

 

Shredder, you have a really strange idea of who Jesus is. Perhaps you elucidite your view of him and why you think he would be against the Christian view of salvation?

Jabba-wocky, being an atheist, I think that any view of salvation is a bunch of hooey. However, if I set that aside for a moment, my view would work like this:

Sin is the rejection of God. Being saved and acknowldging Jesus as God is turning your back on sin. However, you still sin after being saved, thereby rejecting God and if you keep sinning and are in a state of sin when you die, you don't go to heaven.

 

He wouldn't be against salvation but he would be against numerous other things in Christianity.

 

Like...

 

Jesus Christ where do I begin? () Let's see, Jesus didn't preach that you would go to hell if you weren't Catholic. He didn't preach we should descriminate on people because they're different (slavery, homosexuality). He didn't preach that women are inferior. (that comes straight form the bible) He didn't preach that his followers start a new religion killing all the people of his religion. He didn't preach that his followers were better than the rest of the world and that everybody else would go to hell.

Is that enough for you?

 

I do believe that salvation isn't a guarantee, even for the Christian.

Even with the grace that baptism offers, one will still be damned if in a state of unrepentant mortal sin.

Christ Himself said that the gate is very narrow and only a few enter it. Many enter the gate to destruction.

I liken it to a wheelbarrow full of coal with one diamond within. The diamond is saved, and the rest is thrown out into the fire.

 

He didn't preach we should descriminate on people because they're different (slavery, homosexuality).

Neither do most christians.

He didn't preach that women are inferior. (that comes straight form the bible)

PPOR.

He didn't preach that his followers start a new religion killing all the people of his religion.

They didn't.

He didn't preach that his followers were better than the rest of the world and that everybody else would go to hell.

Yes he did. Well at least that everyone who didn't follow him would go to hell.


John 14:6-7:

Jesus said to him, ?I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. [3] From now on you do know him and have seen him.?

Matthew 13:38-43

The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:47-50

?Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.