"Only a Sith deals in absolutes." LOL WUT? Or, how to make sense of nonsense

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

To me, this is the most face palm worthy line in all of Star Wars, it contracts the internal logic and themes of the movies themselves for the sake of making a vague political statement.

First of all, Obi Wan's words have nothing to do with how the Sith view themselves and their morals.

"If one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you wish to become a complete and wise leader, you must embrace a larger view of the Force."

The Siths are the moral relativists. The ends ALWAYS justify the means and any action can be justified as just another, "point of view".

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

"Then you are lost!"

Again, we find Obi Wan here contradicting himself. If one does not acknowledge the existence of other points of view separate from one's own, that is by definition defining the universe in absolute terms.

And the Jedi?

"If a planet does not appear in our archives, it does not exist."

"His abilities have made him... well, arrogant."

"Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones."

Time and time again, the Jedi are defined as the dogmatic ones. They expelled the founders of the Potentium theory. This is not to say the Jedi are flat out wrong in their beliefs. Quite the contrary, there IS a light side to the force and a dark side (for all practical purposes though many disagree on exact definitions). But rather the fact that Obi Wan tries to explain Anakin's choices are wrong because only EVIL PEOPLE see things in absolutes is about as ridiculous and self contradictory as you can get. Not to mention people label things as absolutes in their own life all the time, making snap judgments, gut decisions, that are often wrong, but sometimes they're right.

So I guess it comes down to this, what did Obi Wan really mean?

 

I don't think he was very stable at that moment, but it was stupid. If anyone deals in absolutes it IS Obi-wan. Think of all the things he told Luke about Anakin. "We fought I tried to dissuade him (where?) but he wouldn't listen. Blah blah... Irredeemably dark."

And when did Obi-wan EVER attempt to redeem Anakin? He snuck on board his wife's ship, comes between them, uses her, and then taunts Anakin the whole time. How is that redeeming Anakin? He didn't even bother to ask why, he just assumes. "After Count Dooku died Anakin became the new Sith apprentice." So sure are you Obi-wan?

 

It's also a line in response to Anakin hiding behind moral relativism.

Obi Wan is actually right to point it out. Anakin, by hiding behind his perspective, has managed to justify a huge amount of murder and massacre in his name. Obi Wan is calling him on it. Just because you switch around the perspective doesn't change the actual action's value.

"In my opinion, the Jedi are evil."

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes."

He's saying Anakin's whole worldview is totally valueless because even if he states "I'll save X people more than I kill if I do Y action." It doesn't mean anything.

 

Obi-Wan's "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" was in response to Anakin/Vader saying "if you aren't with me, then you're against me." Which is very much an absolutist statement. And, frankly, that's pretty much the way of the Sith. If you're not with them, you're against them. You = dead.

So while they deal in moral relativism for themselves, they deal in absolutes in their relationships with others. Which is what Obi-Wan is talking about.

Also, his statement isn't so much "nonsense" as it is paradoxical.

 

to be honest..i truly never understood that line either..actually playing the video game the dialogue is more complete and makes more sense but that "Sith & absolutes" never sunk well with me..but as i highlighted your words Dawud..it makes sense!

If you are not with me..then you are against me! Anakin would "never" say that but Darth Vader would...hmmm

Shadojoker

 

I pretty much agree with the last two posts, but I was going to say that when Obi said "only a sith deals in absolutes" it was more of a reaction to the "you're against me" line. I think Obi wan was just trying to say "obviously you're sith because you're talking nonsense" as opposed to "factoid #1 about the sith is..."

 

This, I think, is your first mistake in trying to make sense of Obi-Wan's line: why should you assume that the Sith's view of themselves and their morals is more accurate than Obi-Wan's?

This statement actually has little to do with absolutism, except that it posits that there is a definite wrong way of going about something, which is absolutist. Forbidding certain knowledge is not absolutist, particularly when you take into account that the Force is an objective reality in Star Wars, that has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in it, or what, in particular, you believe about it - the dark side is the dark side, even if the Sith paint it pretty in their brochure.

And what's more, when you get into the nitty-gritty, after they make the sell...the Sith tend to actually be pretty honest about the dark side.

Obi-Wan tries to apologize, Anakin retorts that the Jedi are evil, which is quite the massive, unfounded statement for a kid who's spent fifteen years or so studying with them, so...I think it's a pretty fair assessment on Obi-Wan's part.

How is this absolutist?

Jedi embrace life, are negotiators, and allow themselves to fully digest the big picture, to look for root causes, to understand the psychology of races and people, and reach compromises that benefit the most people possible. The Sith bend things to their own will and destroy inconveniences.

 

Yeah, that's all I treat it as. They were just venting at each other, so I don't particularly put much in their statements. People don't always make much sense when they're arguing.

 

I think I agree with Dawud's statement below you that it's more in response to the "if you're not with me you're against me" line, because "In my opinion, the Jedi are evil", may be moral relativism, but it's not absolutism, it's the opposite.

I think people have long been too hard on Obi-Wan for that line, which he says during a pitched battle on a lava planet where he's almost died, he know the life of a woman he respects and her two unborn children are in danger, and he knows exactly what Anakin did. So while Obi-Wan may not have redeemed Anakin or even tried, I think he can be forgiven under the circumstances. That would be asking super-human compassion to someone who has just wiped out all of Obi-Wan's friends down to innocent children.

Even if Anakin thought that the Jedi Order was wrong, he could have left. No one hunted down Dooku once he left. It was only until he started trying to destroy the Republic that the Jedi viewed him as a problem. Likewise, if we look at the EU, we have multiple examples of Jedi renouncing the war and being allowed to follow their own will. We also have Master Djinn Altis who leads and entire sect of Jedi who follow the older ways and it's not as if Yoda leads a religious war to bring him back in line.

Bottom line; even if Anakin had disagreed, the answer didn't have to be "go Sith", and Anakin should know that the Sith are more than just a differing viewpoint and are actually far beyond simple moral relativism, and corrupted by a darkness either in themselves or the Force (I think we can set the internal/external source of the dark side aside for the purpose of this argument). He wasn't acting according to his conscience, he was acting because he wanted the power to save Padme, and that power quickly corrupted him to the point where he can be said to have had a break in his personality with his anger, fear, and paranoia all heightened.

So, really, while the statement seems...odd, on the face of it, under the circumstance Obi-Wan is quite right. The Sith are absolutists in their quest for power, as Anakin has just strangled the women he fell to save, because that hit of Sithy power has taken control of him and the darkness is riding him and pushing all other thoughts other than power, and now the desire to control the entire galaxy to the point of already throwing over Palpatine and doing things his way, that what else can be said of him but that he's become single minded and an absolutist?

 

The people enter Exhibit 1: The Internet, into evidence, your honor!

 

Post that in the latest non-attachment thread!

 

I don't think Obi-Wan's statement is innacurate or ambiguous so much as it is hypocritical.

In response to Anakin's whole "Either you're with me or against me", Obi-Wan's line is dead-on, albeit a generalized characterization of Sith. But I've always thought it seemed silly that Obi-Wan would catch Anakin on this when he himself is following Yoda's orders to put Anakin down like a rabid dog despite his own initial misgivings about such an approach.

 

Although I never liked hearing that line, I always figured that deep down it made sense. Obi-Wan is not only calling out Anakin's twisted beliefs (i.e., wanton slaughter is how we bring about peace), but also realizes that Anakin is no longer there, only Vader, and thus remains a threat to be destroyed.

In reading this thread, it also occurs to me how the context of Anakin's line, "If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!" illustrates a difference of the Jedi and the Sith. Historically, the Sith treated other views of the Force as weak or inferior, and they would either convert the followers of other traditions or destroy them outright (considering, for example, Dooku's plan to recruit all Force-sensitives humans into a Sith Army). The Jedi, while not as charitable to other traditions, did at least attempt to communicate with them and better understand their perspective, even if they believed that their view of the Force was ultimately flawed. There is mention of Jedi Master Bodo Baas doing just that for the Order. While the Jedi never destroyed these "non-believers," they at least permitted them to coexist so long as they remained true to the will of the Force and never strayed onto the dark path.

 

To be fair, even had Obi-Wan had a different idea when he got to Mustafar... Anakin didn't exactly do anything to show that he didn't need to be brought down and brought down hard.

Also, Obi-Wan didn't finish Anakin off when he could have... easily. And while, from the grander point of view, leaving Anakin burned and dismembered on the shores of a lava lake probably wasn't all that merciful... from where Obi-Wan was at at the time it probably seemed merciful to him. Rather than outright kill an unarmed(literally), and badly burned man who he considered both a son and a brother and loved very dearly who wounded him much deeper than physically by slaughtering callously their entire surrogate family... he left it to the Force. Unfortunately, Anakin's injuries coupled with the torturous surgery that turned him into a cyborg in a walking iron lung. That sort of kept him from seeing Obi-Wan's point of view that he was being somewhat merciful to him.

Anakin, I think, was driven mad by the dark side... I don't see how anyone affected with the Sith eyes wouldn't be at that place. Maul was a berzerker of rage and fury, Anakin/Vader was doing things he wouldn't normally do and was talking nonsense clearly mad, and then there's Sidious... what really needs to be said about that cackling madman who builds planet and star destroying weapons just as a matter of course? And Obi-Wan Kenobi was completely distraught by the fact that his best friend, brother and adopted son(all rolled into one) murdered his surrogate family, the only family he'd ever known, in cold blood. Including the younglings. Would you be so charitable to your brother or cousin if he slaughtered your extended family at a BBQ?

 

Yoda: "Do or do not. There is no try."
Luke: "But I thought only the Sith deal in absolutes?"
Yoda: *beats Luke with his cane*

 

Definitely on the right track with some of these answers. I can see how Obi Wan was throwing it in Anakin's face that he had moral relativism and yet was defining himself as the 'hero'. But that sure isn't clear in the film.

 

I always figured that line had something to do with George Bush. He made his 'you're either with us or with the terrorists" assertion sometime before the movie came out.

 

It probably does, a little bit. But it's reflective of a tendency amongst tyrants anyways, and the Sith are tyrants. So it's relevant IU.

 

Minch is a Sith!

 

That last line about Anakin replacing Dooku REALLY sticks out like a GIANT sore-thumb because of the changes to Anakin's turn. Before the 'hack' (READ: revised turn), he turned alot sooner and there was a little more time between him joining Palpatine's Sith Club and Mace -n- the Posse's march towards their doom. But that's a whole nother topic...

As for Kenobi's corny 'Absolute' line, that's just Georgie being Georgie.
He's the same dude who trivialized the massive amount of power required to blow up an entire planet... sure the Force is powerful, but so was the GIANT LASER that just WASTED ALDERAAN.

Great topic.
Clearly (based upon dialog in-films), Kenobi was talking out of his ass.

 

Yeah..I am going to chalk up the line to a poor peice of writing, but one I am glad exists if for no other reason than the lulz.

On the subject of Jedi absolutism: The only thing they get dogmatic about is the darkside, but even using that term doesn't feel right; it is like calling a nuclear technician dogmatic because he demands you follow all the safety protocols.

 

I tend to see it like this: Sith Masters aim to kill their students; if the student survives, then they're proven themselves worthy. The Jedi may give you a second chance or you may be told you're not good enough but you'll live.

With the Sith it's like:

Master: And Pi is what value?
Student: 3.12?
Master: <slash> Next! What is the value?

 

Yoda is so Zen.

 

it's obvious that we need a Sith to help raise the education standards in america...

 

Deals in absolutes = offering an ultimatum like "join me or die, you're my ally or my enemy, everything is black and white."