?Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness? and Yoda hearing about Darth Sidious.

Now I don?t if anyone has pointed this out, but I am becoming more confident that the Jedi, particularly Yoda believes what Dooku said to Obi-Wan, and that the Dark Lord of the Sith that Dooku said was named Darth Sidious is the same Sith that Yoda referred to when he and Mace were discussing the clones after having gotten the report from Obi-Wan on Kamino. Of course I also believe that Yoda also knows that Dooku is a Sith also.

Here is why I personally believe that Yoda for the most part believes what Dooku said to Obi-Wan about a Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Sidious.

When Mace and Yoda were talking after finishing the report from Obi-Wan, Yoda says,

?Blind we are, if the creation(development)of this clone army we could not see?

Mace then says, ?I think it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished?

Now here comes the line from Yoda that aids my theory here.

Yoda then responds to Mace with, ?Only the Dark Lord(s) of the Sith know of our weakness?

Now look at what Dooku told Obi-Wan that we know he told to Yoda and Mace:

?What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lord(s) of the Sith??
Then Dooku says further, ?The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision?..,Hundreds of senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious

Then even more, ?The Viceroy of the Trade Federation was once in league with this Darth Sidious. But he was betrayed 10 years ago by the Dark Lord?

Now when you put together what Yoda said to Mace and what he learns from Obi-Wan, I am strongly leaning toward Yoda believing what Dooku said.

We know that when TPM ended, Yoda said of the Sith, ?Only two there are, Master and an Apprentice?. They knew one Sith was dead, and now another remained. Their question was at this point was, but who remained, the Master or the Apprentice?? But in reality this was not that important, because which ever one remained, that one would become the Master and would seek to find an apprentice.

With Yoda knowing this, and what he said to Mace, combined with what Dooku said to Obi-Wan, the remaining Sith has to be this Darth Sidious. And that Sidious is the Master, irregardless as to whether he was before the other Sith?s(Maul)death. And as I said, I believe Yoda knows that Dooku has become a Sith, and a clue is when he said of him, ?JOINED the dark side. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now?


Darth Sin!

 

So he's joined the dark side? Since when does the dark side =Sith? Sure Sith always = dark side but does dark side always equal Sith?

 

Yoda doesn't know. He suspects.

 

Dark side user doesn't necessarily mean Sith, but in this case Yoda knows it's the Sith.

Because in Episode 1 they learn that the Sith, after a millenia, have returned. And after Darth Maul was killed they know that there is still another, so he must be thinking that the other was rather Dooku all along, or Dooku has replaced the dead Sith. (I refer to Maul as the dead Sith because they never learned his name)

 

A little far fetched this time Sin.
The thing is the movie AOTC never really make clear if ObiWan tells anyone about the name Darth Sidious ? he only asks if there's truth about A sith having influence in the Senate .
The other problem is that AOTC never make clear also what kind of investigation on the Siths the jedi have made ( if any )since the events of TPM.

For once have the jedi ever interrogated Nute Gunray ?

It seems the jedi are totally clueless about the sith thus far .

 

Not so my friends!

Obi-Wan did say in his conversation with Mace and Yoda at the end of AOTC the name Sidious. Here is what he said:

"Do you believe what Count Dooku said about Sidious controlling the Senate"?

So Obi-Wan clearly said the name Sidious, and of course he had to have told them(Mace and Yoda)of what Dooku said.

Now let me reiterate that I said "I" am believing more and more that Yoda believes that Dooku was telling the truth to Obi-Wan.

In getting back to what I first posted and in this post, you cannot deny the possibility that Yoda quite possibly believes Dooku, because it is in line with what evidence they had from the time of TPM.

Now as I said before, Yoda refers to the Dark Lord(s) of the Sith knowing their weakness when talking with Mace about the clones.

Then you have Dooku telling Obi-Wan about a Dark Lord of the Sith named Sidious controlling the Senate, and that the dark side has blinded the Jedi.

The Jedi weakness, is that they are "blind" as to what has been happening. Dooku said the dark side has "blinded" the Jedi.

Obi-Wan communicated all of what Dooku said to Mace and Yoda.

This is why Yoda said,"The shroud of the dark side has fallen, Begun this Clone War has"

Yoda in my opinion now has come to see what has been hidden from the Jedi, at least in part,and that was that the clones were created for the purpose of this war, and this was the work of the Sith.

Let me say that it takes the Sith to manipulate the dark side for their purposes. In other words, they use the nature of the dark side and its power to conceal what they are doing.

So in a way, the dark side and the Sith are almost one and the same when it relates to the events transpiring in the PT.

Lastly, even though the Jedi likely did not get to question Nute Gunray if he was involved with the Sith at the Naboo invasion.

Even though the Jedi never knew who Maul was, they did know he was a Sith, and he was there on Naboo in the midst of the battle, and he killed Qui-Gon.

They knew a Sith remained. Now during the time of AOTC, we hear Yoda speak of the Dark Lord of the Sith(the one that remains), and now they get information from Dooku about a Sith that was involved with Nute Gunray 10 years before, and this same Sith is controlling the Senate.

The proof is there that Dooku is telling the truth.


Darth Sin!

 

You are correct sir, about Darth Sidious, but I think the jedi are still clueless about the Sith wanting the clones for the republic. We as an audience know for certain, but the jedi don't.

 

Obi Wan probably thinks that Dooku was lying. They suspect he is a Sith, and if so why would he expose the other Sith? They probably think Dooku is the other Sith, Maul's master/apprentice, from TPM. If they could tell Maul was a Sith just from his appearance and skills, it must be obvious Dooku is also a Sith. Yoda, on the other hand, may wonder if Dooku is not a Sith but somehow found out that the Senate is controlled by one, and instead of alerting the Jedi is instead trying to destroy the Republic for his own devious, dark-side-but-NOT-Sith purposes. (This of course raises the question, Why DID Dooku tell the Jedi about Sidious? It was totally unnecesary for their plan. Does Dooku really have plans of his own?)

 

Well first off, I cannot believe that Obi-Wan would not tell the counsel (or just Yoda + Mace) EVERY detail of his encounters with Dooku. Just because it isn't onscreen doesn't mean it didn't happen (not unlike Qui-Gon's report about Maul in TPM - we only see the very end of it). When Obi-Wan says "Do you believe what Dooku said about.." both Yoda and Mace already know exactly what he's talking about. They've been fully briefed. End of discussion.

Why did Dooku tell Obi-Wan everything? I personally believe that his speech is a mirror of Vader's speech to Luke in ESB. Vader told the Emperor "he will join us or die" and I think that is Dooku's feeling as well. He is firmly in control; if Obi-Wan refuses his offer, he can just have him killed. Dooku's overconfidence is his weakness. Unfortunately, Obi-Wan doesn't escape before he can avert a huge part of the Sith plan: the war. So when Obi-Wan reports back to the counsel, even if they do believe him, it's too late. They've been dragged into this huge conflict.

Does Yoda think Dooku is telling the truth? Most likely. I think part of what Yoda meant by "lies, deceit, creating mistrust" was Dooku adopting a guise of "concerned citizen" and wanting to destroy the Sith. But Yoda knows better. He tells Dooku "the Dark Side I sense in you." and later says "joined the Dark Side Dooku has."

So, what are Dooku's lies, deceit, creating mistrust?

"There are no bounty hunters here that I am aware of" LIE

"You must join me Obi-Wan. Together we will destroy the Sith! DECEIT (trying to portray himself in a honorable light)

"...He knew all about the corruption in the Senate." and "the Dark Side of the Force has clouded their vision." CREATING MISTRUST

 

Jedi Master Waldo, I believe the main reason for Tyrannus to tell Obi-Wan of Darth Sidious's plan will be revealed in the next episode. I believe it will be because he wants to lure the jedi into believing what he is saying, then once they find it the truth, they will abandon the senate and then this will lead to their downfall....any one else?

 

I agree that Yoda has a feeling that the creation of the Clone Army was in truth part of the Sith's motive, and that he takes Dooku's words with serious concern. By the end of the film it seems that Yoda realizes that the Sith had a part in this, and that things were going to get ugly very fast. The whole thing about the "shrowd of the dark side", and the discussions of the Sith clouding the Jedi's vision points to the direction of Yoda feeling that they were the major players.

I also agree that Yoda's line about Dooku's "lies, deceit, and mistrust" was referring to his "concerned citizen" impression that Darth Banal was talking about.

As far as Dooku's motive to give this information to Obi-Wan...I feel that Dooku does indeed have some sort of plan of his own. While he "remains loyal" to Master Sidious I think that in III he might try and betray his master with the help of Anakin and or Obi-Wan....just my speculation of course...it is in the Sith's nature

-Steve

 

Let me add something else here that came to me. I also believe that if Yoda even remotely believes Dooku about Darth Sidious controlling the Senate, then I have to believe that he knows that this Sidious is responsible in part for the creation of the clones.

The reason I say this is, because as I said before, when Yoda said, "The shroud of dark side has fallen, Begun this Clone War has", Yoda has come to know that the beginning of these wars is the result of the Sith, and the clones being created were a major part of the Sith's plan.

And since he knows the Kaminoans said the clones were created for the Republic, then this would mean someone likely in the Senate is responsible. And Dooku said that a Dark Lord of the Sith is controlling the Senate.


Darth Sin!

 

Darth Sin, I always like your post topics. As for what Yoda knows, I think that he believed this Sidious, who was in league with Nute Gunray and that he knew still remained after the events of TPM, commissioned the clone army. Yoda probably believes that the order to make the clone army for the republic was a lie by sidious and that sidious' intention was for the clone army to support the now confederacy. I don't think he realizes at this point that the Sith's plan all along was to get the clone army for the republic for 2 reasons:
1) A clone/battle droid galactic war would help decimate the jedi left in the galaxy
2) A clone army makes the jedi look unnecessary, they lose their hold on the job of being "protectors" of the galaxy.

 

The Jedi have known for a decade that the Sith presence is still there. The Dark Lord is Sidious, who is also the Phantom Menace. From what Yoda said about Dooku's lies, deciet creating mistrust etc.. I didn't gather that Yoda had any inkling that Count Dooku was a Sith Lord. Remember that the information that Dooku gave to Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious supposedly came from Nute Gunray. That's just a cover up so that the Jedi, knowing Dooku has turned to the dark side, doesn't suspect that he is a Sith. Dooku might have left the order and formed his own cause, but never would they believe that one so great as Count Dooku would simply leave the Jedi Order to be a Sith. That thought in particular is foreign to Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Ki-Mundi, and Kit Fisto. They haven't the slightest idea.