Palpatine - Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery...

Palpatine - Anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi. If you are to become a complete and wise leader you must embrace a larger view of the Force.

Do you believe Palpatine has a point? What do you think would be the ideal existence as a Force-sensitive?

 

I've always thought that a strongly Force sensitive being would be best off knowing as much a bout the dark side as possible, in terms of it's power and also it's danger. Anything which is warned against, but then not allowed to be discussed and learned about, soon takes on a mythology and lure which makes it even more seductive and dangerous.

 

I don't know. The Dark Side is made out to be intoxicating, i.e. those seduced by it get addicted to the power rush. In such a way, suggesting that one dabble in the dark side is a bad idea. People don't encourage their kids to do drugs in the hopes of proving a point that their children ultimately choose not to do them. Instead, children are taught the harm drugs can cause (without actually doing them). I think learning about the harm the Sith had done throughout history would be an important history lesson for Jedi to learn, but I don't think they should be encouraged to learning of the dark side itself.

 

I agree. But learning about the Dark Side and dabbling in it aren't necessarily the same thing. I guess this question ties in with the debate that arises here occasionally about whether the Jedi were advocating emotional control or emotional suppression. Saying "beware the dark side" and not being prepared to talk about the dark side, would be an excellent way to send someone on a path to the dark side. Sitting alongside someone and explaining the dark side, why it's so powerful and seductive but what the costs of following that patch might be, would be a better way to help that person make a good, informed choice when confronted.

Do you think anyone (other than Palpatine) ever sat down with Anakin and really thoroughly talked to him about the dark side? Or was it all just - don't feel like this or it'll lead to the dark side.

 

"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." Yoda
From the films, I would presume that Jedi were thoroughly warned during their padawan years about the dangers of the dark side, as the greater the mystery something is, the greater the allure.

 

I guess that's the question. Were they thoroughly taught about the DS or did they just receive the bumper sticker wisdom that we see in the films. If I was a very angry young Jedi and all I kept hearing was not to be angry, because anger leads to the DS, I wouldn't feel all that well informed.

 

I'd have to say dabbling might help.

I hope I'm remembering this correctly, but Luke studies the Dark Side in Dark Empire, correct? I thought it made him stronger as a Jedi once he was done. Plus, consider that, in terms of raw power, it often seems like the Dark Side has an edge over the light, so theoretically a powerful force user might need some Dark Side training...

 

it has to do with transcending the wisdom of those who teach you, i suppose, so palps has a point but in the end (the proper end) anakin will also transcend his wisdom and rightfully so.

 

Yet, when Anakin is encouraged to "dabble" it destroys the Jedi Order. Besides it was those that wanted to dabble in the dark arts that split the Jedi Order in two in the first place. So, I'd have to say it's wise that the Jedi strongly discourage those among their ranks from exploring the Dark Side.

It's a domino effect. Hence Yoda's explanation that "anger leads to hate..." and so on. A Jedi isn't really able (or is highly unlikely) to explore the Dark Side and come away better from the experience. Instead they are more likely to be "consumed" by it.

 

As I recall, he was later scolded by Mara in VOTF, who pointed out how it affected things negatively.

 

Having to know the Dark Side to be a better Jedi is like saying you have to go dabble in serial murder to be a better person.

 

I think the drug analogy is better. Of course you don't encourage someone to take drugs in order to understand their danger, but I think if you try to shield someone from their existence completely and don't inform them, other than to tell them that they're bad, they're more likely to make a bad choice out of ignorance.

 

Well, I was under the impression that the dark side offers nothing the good side doesn't except speed. Yoda obviously is aware of sith lightning as is obi-wan in aotc. There is only one force, what you do with it and how you do it are up to the user and their motives. Yoda could have used force lightning but chose not to since it was an aggressive use of the force and forbidden by the jedi. So, Palpatine was tempting Anakin with nothing but a lie. There is no mystery to the dark side. Anakin has no instruction on how to use it, he just all of a sudden does bad things.

 

There's no mystery to it at the end of the day, but if you don't know that and why, it can appear to give more because it allows for the use of otherwise prohibited feelings to be used as extra fuel. That's what Anakin was constantly feeling. He felt as though the Jedi way was holding him back and came to believe that the dark side would enable him to fully utilize his potential. When he realised that the DS wasn't able to achieve what he wanted any more than the light, it was too late.

 

I believe that he's right to an extent. If one is to have a complete understanding of the Force, then one definitely has to understand the Dark Side. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to dabble in it, personally. A Jedi Master could for instance study Sith texts(assuming that the Jedi can find any) or simply talk to a reformed Dark Sider(which are around every corner if you believe the EU. )

There's a piece of cut dialog from Return of the Jedi that I think says it fairly well.

BEN:To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and
then go beyond the dark side - the side your
father couldn't get past.

I'd say it's been a net positive, but for years it caused Luke to always second guess himself.

 

yep..

 

A person can never truly claim to be a master of the Force unless they study both sides of it. You can't ignore half of an equation and expect to fully comprehend it. The Light Side and the Dark Side are yin and yang and each side has a unique relationship to each other. Understanding this relationship will help one understand the Force. Throughout the films you can see subtle hints of this belief. Due to Yoda's lack of Dark Side knowledge, he mistakenly tries to fight violence with violence and also mistakenly believes that the Dark Side is impossible to come back from. Palpatine didn't understand the light side, so he couldn't fathom Anakin sacrificing himself to save his son and couldn't figure out how to Force Ghost. If Yoda and Palpatine had studied both sides then these things could have been avoided.

 

It's not lack of Dark Side knowledge that makes Yoda think Anakin is gone forever, it's his lack of experience in dealing with dark siders themselves. Nor was it Palpatine's failure of understanding the light side that blinded him to Vader's redemption. Both sides assumed that Anakin had fallen completely to the point that Anakin ceased to exist. Palpatine knew full well that the Jedi were selfless, he simply thought that the person that Anakin had been was gone forever. It was his arrogance, not his lack of knowledge of the light side, that led him to underestimate Anakin/Vader.

One side is selfish and the other selfless, they are anti-thetical. A mixture of the two produces nothing. One cannot know both. If Palpatine had followed light side teachings than he would simply cease to be the selfish and manipulative being that he was. And if the Jedi had followed darker teachings, then they would serve themselves and not the Republic. Both teachings can't really co-exist, it creates a conflict.

And whether or not one can be redeemed depends on the case. Yoda had little reason to believe that Vader could be redeemed back into Anakin, in the same way that Yoda had absolutely no reason to believe that Palpatine could be turned back; in fact, nobody tries to redeem Palpatine. What made Vader able to be redeemed was that "there's still good in him." Palpatine by contrast had no such good. It was that conflict of light side/dark side that made Vader able to be redeemed, and in the end, the light side won out. The mixture of teachings did not benefit him in anyway as Vader.

Also, Luke was in a position to redeem Vader. They were related, he was Padme's son, and he had no knowledge of Vader's deeds. "Obi-Wan once thought as" Luke did, but it did not work for Obi-Wan, as Obi-Wan simply could not be the emotional anchor that Luke could be. Vader's actions led to the death of his wife, that her son could forgive and redeem his father would mean infinitely more than Yoda or Obi-Wan's forgiveness.

 

I disagree. If Palpatine and Yoda studied the Force, instead of their philosophies, they would have understood why one would want to turn and how to prevent it.

It would only creates a conflict if one studies Jedi and Sith teachings, because of the inherent differences in the two philosophies. However one does not have to be a Jedi to learn the light side, and one does not have to be Sith to learn the Dark Side. The notion of using the light side to be selfless and using the Dark Side to empower yourself are byproducts of the Jedi and Sith, not the Force itself. The Light Side and Dark Side both co-exist in nature and I see no reason why they both can't exist in a person (provided that person isn't tainted by Jedi or Sith teachings).

Vader could have existed using both the Light Side and Dark Side. The reason why he turned completely to one side is due to Palpatine wanting him to kill his son. That has nothing to do with how the Dark Side inherently is, but is due to Palpatine's motivations. I think the reason why Palpatine could not be redeem is due to the fact he was raised as a Sith, whereas Vader had experienced both sides.

I think that's a fair assessment.

 

I don't know what you mean by the dark side and light side coexisting. The cave that Luke enters in ESB is identified as being filled with the Dark Side and identified therefore by Yoda as evil.

In the prequels Qui-Gon refers to the will of the force, and Obi-Wan in ANH explains that it partially controls one's actions. My understanding of the "force being balanced" is that there is harmony between living things brought on by "positive" use of the force. I.E. selfless acts. It partially controls one's actions but also obeys commands. I don't think it was "partially controlling" Palpatine's actions or Vader's. Vader and Palpatine had to take control of it and bend it to their will and in doing so created an imbalance in the natural flow of the force making it "out of balance."

The Dark Side of the force as heavily suggested by Yoda is inherently evil, being unnaturally concentrated in one area at the expense of others.

 

I don't think he does. To him "embracing a larger view" means taking on the viewpoint of the Sith. Not simply knowing about the philosophies of both sides. Otherwise Palpatine probably would have simply regarded the Jedi as a Force sect, and not enemies to be destroyed.

The Jedi steer clear of the Dark Side for a reason. The Dark Side is hard to get out of as it corrupts. And even if the person gets out of it, there is always the danger of sliding back into it, because they are used to breaking the inhibitions that kept them back before they fell. The Dark Side tends to make its users become evil, and do really evil things.

The ideal existance for a Force-Sensitive, would be to never learn either side at all. Most of the Force-Senitives that are not schooled in the ways of the Force tend to be nearly identical to regular beings, save for the unconcious abilities the Force provides. If they do aggressive things, they are probably not as corrupted then if they were trained to reach for the Dark Side directly. Same with those who are not aggressive. Both would be roughly neutral. The person could be evil, but not Dark-Sided, or good without being Light Sided. It is when thy are trained that they can go to the extremes.

 

Yes, in order to understand the force completely you have to have knowledge of both sides. It doesn't mean indulge yourself completely into the darkside, following it's code and using it's powers to rule but just understanding the concept. If the Jedi knew some of the darkside's secrets and powers, then perhaps Sidious wouldn't have been so well concealed and they could've "darkside outed" him earlier.

Also, if the darkside really had the secret to creating and sustaining life, then the Jedi could've used it almost as a healing power. But, I do see where that contradicts their views and code as to being servants of the force, not masters of it. As long as they didn't use their darkside emotions and intentions, and didn't abuse the power, I don't see exactly what was wrong with it. But I don't think Sidious actually believed in this, seeing as he didn't seem to understand the Jedi completely and had a Sith bias on them. He was moreso just justifying himself and his actions to Anakin.

 

The "light side" of the force is never mentioned in the films. When you divide the force into "light" and "dark" sides it sounds as though they are - as someone else put it - like ying and yang. In the films there is simply the force, and the dark side takes it out of balance. You can't have both, because to have both inherently creates an imbalance.

The Jedi value meditation to determine the proper course of action, and they "listen" to the will of the force; the Sith (and non-Sith dark siders) use raw emotion to dictate action. To understand the dark side, the Jedi would have had to have removed safety precautions such as making marriage forbidden, forcing Jedi to have no contact with their families, etc. Nothing in the films implies that the "dark side" is really anything more than when an individual takes command of the force, ceases to listen to its will, and uses it in ways that are dictated by emotion. How can one come it understand such things without experiencing it (which is an addictive act)?

The Dark Side was "misuse" of the force, not a natural side of the force that always existed. For the force to be balanced, the dark side needed to cease to exist (hence the mere presence of the Sith creates an imbalance).

 

The Light Side is never mentioned by name, but Luke refers to it.

From the ESB script:

LUKE: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?

YODA: You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.

From the RotJ script:

LUKE
Because...there is good in him. I've felt
it. He won't turn me over to the Emperor. I
can save him. I can turn him back to the good
side. I have to try.

It's also implied by the very existence of the Dark Side.

They could understand it by simply studying Sith dogma through texts or holograms. They may not have the personal experience, but it would enlighten them on the nature of the Dark Side. The Jedi do experience emotions, so they would be able to understand what the Sith are saying, though they wouldn't agree with it. Of course, I think Palpatine's point is one that some of the Jedi would agree with given that Yoda seems to have a good understanding of the Dark Side given his awareness that it can cloud everything.

 

If the Jedi were familiar with Sith dogma and teachings (even if they didn't practice them), it still poses a temptation. It was a simple Sith legend that turned Anakin. Hearing such a legend wouldn't have done anything for him had it not been for the fact that he was already disobeying the Jedi and had formed a relationship. Had he not loved Padme he would not have been so tempted to put his faith in a legend. I really don't understand what you ("you" being advocates of the idea that the Jedi should study the dark side to truly understand the force) would expect the Jedi to do with said knowledge. There is hostility between the middle east and the western world today because in the past the middle east was taken advantage of and lied to by Western imperial powers, leading to a reactionary movement heavily influenced by strict conservative Islam. Understanding that history and their viewpoints can create sympathy which could be used to diffuse tense situations diplomatically (provided that the other party is open to diplomacy). Sympathy toward Dark Side practitioners really can't lead to any gain, since the two sides are not trying to live in peace, both actively are trying to wipe the other out entirely. The Jedi want justice, peace, and selflessness; the Sith want selfishness, and power to reside in the hands of those strong enough to take it for themselves. Sympathy and understanding would be to no benefit. Studying its teachings or dogma would serve no good, IMO.

Rather, studying the tragedies of individuals would be a greater point. Perhaps under the New Jedi Order, Luke could teach his students about the tragedy of Vader, and how while the Dark Side promises power, those that seek it often lose everything dear to them. That's all that a student would really need to know. They don't need to go looking into Sith holocrons or texts, because that puts them at risk of being persuaded by a charismatic dark lord.