Palpatine and Julius Caesar

"To get an idea of the kind of man Palpatine is in the prequel trilogy you need to read about the Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar, and his spectacular rise to power in Rome."
--George Lucas


Interesting..............

Julius was killed by one of his best friends: Brutus.

Palpatine was killed by one of his "best friends": Vader.

 

"Palpatine was killed by one of his "best friends": Vader."

Erm, you mean Palpatine was killed by someone who WAS one of his "best friends" "Vader" known as Anakin Skywalker, obviously.

 

Very nice connection, I've always like that one. Et tous brutis.

Their rise to power from Senate to Emperor is also very similar (also ties to Hitler.)

There was an excellent discussion of this and other historical influences in this thread:

http://boards.theforce.net/The_Star_Wars_Saga/b10456/12167897/?76

A bit of an old thread, but I'm sure you will find the discussion to be interesting.

-Seldon

 

Erm, you mean Palpatine was killed by someone who WAS one of his "best friends" "Vader" known as Anakin Skywalker, obviously.


"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies."
--George Lucas


"Best friends, huh?"

 

He designed the story around Rome, yet you can see hints of Nazi Germany and also the current United States for that matter.

!snap

 

Interesting.

But keep in mind that Caesar has never been an emperor.

 

But keep in mind that Caesar has never been an emperor.


But he was gaining too much power.

 

If Palpatine hadn't been a Sith his governmental reforms would have qualified him as the Greatest Guy Ever in the GFFA.

 

As mentioned above: Julius Caesar was never an Emperor of Rome,though was given the title - Dictator for Life by the Roman Senate.

This is different to Palps who announces himself Emperor in the Senate.

In name and office Julius Caesar was the most powerful political figure in Rome but he did not have takeover of Rome for his own personal desires in mind as opposed to Palps.

The only analogy that I can draw to the two characters is that Julius did reform and remove the old Mos Maiorum of Rome(the established order of things) by being a perpetual Dictator and Palps removes the Galactic Senate and establishes a Dictatorship.

 

"In name and office Julius Caesar was the most powerful political figure in Rome but he did not have takeover of Rome for his own personal desires in mind as opposed to Palps".

Yes but Caesar was murdered before doing so. Brutus killed him because he and some others feared that he was gaining too much power and would want to disband the senate and restore the Roman monarchy in his favor (does this sound familiar? Just like if Palpy was killed before ROTS-which would be a very boring movie then...)

Caesar was also a religious leader and has it has been said, dictator for life. But it didn't have a negative meaning at that time as it has today. It simply meant that he was the highest in power, but necessary a blood craver tyrant as of today'standard.
"Primus Magister", firsts ruler.

 

^^^^

As I said - Julius Caesar did not want to rule Rome to it's detriment and it's people for his own personal lust for power... Palps did exactly that to his "people" and his governmental system.

Caesars' appointment to 'Dictator Perpeture' was one that frightened Caesars' enemies and it was Caesars' clemency that allowed them to be alive,a situation that Palpatine would never have allowed as he was not known for his clemency or compassion(not a Sith trait).

So as I stated only one real analogy for Palpatine and Julius Caesar can be made - the meteoric rise to Dictatorial power in a Republican based political system.

And this is what GL referred to from the outset.

 

Probably this paralell would be more precise if GL refered to Octavianus, who actually established Roamn empire, keeping illusion of continuity regarding Republic system and senate, but I guess Ceaser is more widely known, so he was a better person to serve as an example.

 

There are similarities between the German Weimar Republic the Old Republic in Star Wars and the modern U.S. For example remember in Phantom Menace when Watoo says that he will not accept Republic credits because they are worthless(think Germany in the early 1920`s when hyperinflation occured in Germany and look what is happening to the cost of gas in the U.S. now).Also look at how the Patriot Act could be abused by a future administration. However I do not see George Bush as Palpatine...but Hillary as a Palps analog is a scary possibility. So I would say that the US now is like the Star Wars Old Republic at the time of Phantom Menace or maybe even AOTC not Revenge of The Sith.

 

George Bush as Valorum and Hillary Clinton as Palpatine..What a frightening paralell.

 

I agree with Master Rebado. Caesar never wabted to rule *everything* He did so because he thought he must do it, because the Senate wasn't able to do it anymore (at least that's how I understood it).

And ... hey ! We here in Germany have high gas prices as well !

 

Another similarity to Rome is Palpatine's military build-up. One reason for the Roman Republic's collapse was its own unsustainable imperialism and militarism. When I first saw AOTC, I thought the clone army was silly, but now that I see the similarities to Napoleon and Rome, I've come to appreciate it's significance. Lucas has crafted this story very well.

 

I have been aware for some time about the role of economic chaos in these kinds of situations. Since Watoo made a reference to the rapidly depreciating Republic credit in Phantom Menace I hope that there is a reference to it in Revenge of the Sith. Papatine could even mention it in one of his speeches.

 

If Palpatine hadn't been a Sith his governmental reforms would have qualified him as the Greatest Guy Ever in the GFFA.

Um, no. He'd be looked upon similarly to George W Bush in the current US. 50% love him 50% hate him.

!snap

 

Um, no. He'd be looked upon similarly to George W Bush in the current US. 50% love him 50% hate him.

Consider the following. While a Republic consisting of all the Human worlds, or all the Core worlds, or what have you might have been an effiecient political entity, the Old Galactic Republic is simply too big, broad, and diverse to accomplish much beyond in-fighting and internal bickering as the wildly disparate racial, political and economic factions go head-to-head over and over again, as was demonstrated in the NJO.

My point was that the only way an entity as big and as centralized as the Republic could be effectively governed would be by decree, not by consensus. I'm not saying this is neccessarily a good thing, just that it's supported by the historical precedent of the Roman Empire.

 

Well, Roman Republic was never a democracy, like the Old Republic. It was not ruled by "consensus" of the people, but - at the best of times - by the "consensus" of the the patricians of the city (and at worst by men like Marius, Sulla and Julius Caesar), with plebs having at best little effect on their doings. The Roman senate was more equivalent to the British House of Lords than to the huge Old Republic senate. And during the Principate the Senate did still run part of the Empire, the more insignificant provinces, and the Emperor the more important ones. And the Republic had been run as much by decrees as the Empire came to be run.

In the SW one would have to think also that before the dissolution of the Imperial Senate in the ANH things continued pretty much as they had before. Maybe Palpatine did decide things more quickly than the Republic Senate, but still it was the same burocracy that made reality of them. And the senators of course had to have some kind of part in the business, even after they lost their real power with creation of the Empire.

The Roman Republic did not fell because it was ungovernable, it fell more because it�´s elite couldn�´t make a lasting deal of how they would share the power. And in the end one reason for why Augustus won was that the population was weary of war and wanted peace and the old nobility was decimated in the war. He wasn�´t the last man standing among them, but pretty close. And certainly he was the only one who was still ready to fight. The long reigns of Augustus and Tiberius then cemented the "New Order". If Augustus would have died at the beginning of his reign, without an adult, credible heir - his Vader, Agrippa, probably wouldn�´t have been much more popular among the Roman Senate than Vader would have been to the SW Empire�´s bigshots - then the Principate would have died in it�´s infancy.

 

. Since Watoo made a reference to the rapidly depreciating Republic credit in Phantom Menace I hope that there is a reference to it in Revenge of the Sith.

That's Watto

Watto never said the Republic credits were "rapidly depreciating". He just said they were no good on Tatooine - because the planet is not part of the Republic.

 

Well, Roman Republic was never a democracy, like the Old Republic. It was not ruled by "consensus" of the people, but - at the best of times - by the "consensus" of the the patricians of the city (and at worst by men like Marius, Sulla and Julius Caesar), with plebs having at best little effect on their doings.

That doesn't seem too much different than the situation in the Old Republic.

 

Maybe Palpatine did decide things more quickly than the Republic Senate, but still it was the same burocracy that made reality of them. And the senators of course had to have some kind of part in the business, even after they lost their real power with creation of the Empire.

In all fairness, that's a good point, but you forget General Taag's (is that who it is?) question to Tarkin as to how the Emperor could run the government without the beurocracy, and Tarkin's response: "The regional governors will now have full control".

 

"In all fairness, that's a good point, but you forget General Taag's (is that who it is?) question to Tarkin as to how the Emperor could run the government without the beurocracy, and Tarkin's response: "The regional governors will now have full control"."

Yes, but that´s only in ANH and after. For most part of the (short) history of the Empire, the Emperor run the Empire with burocracy, or at least that is what is implied in the ANH itself.

 

palpatine is more like Hitler. Hitler said some of the same things as palpatine said in the movies.