This post is beginning due to @Dandelo and my discussion in "Teh Mole!" For context, as this is a fascinating discussion, I would like to continue it as long as no altercations break out. Let the discussions begin!
ok, for the sake of just putting out my opinion first to make it clear: Yes Palpatine is a bad guy. At least in the storytelling definition of the term. my responses in the mentioned thread were firmly tongue in cheek, and made in good fun banter That said, I suppose an underlying point I was making was...if Palpatine is a bad guy then the good guys aren't that much better either...or the good guys in the GFFA are not really much different. You see in Star Wars, we are told that the Jedi are good. We are told the Sith are bad. But what is the difference? an example: Jedi use mind tricks to get what they want Palpatine used manipulation to get a gullible idiot to do what he wants. Look at it this way: A parent wants his/her child to go to bed, the parent has force powers she can either 1) mind control aka 'jedi mind trick' (played for laughs because mind control---forcing people to do things against their will is 'funny' don't you know) 2) parent manipulates the child through bribery or blackmail to go to bed. Which is the lesser of two evils? so yeah, Palpatine is a bad guy...he builds death stars, he kills people with a lightsaber and shoots mean lightning from his fingers, but ask yourself this, are the Jedi any more good OR bad?
@Dandelo Hmm... when you say "jedi" do this, like say, mindtricking, I think you need to be more specific. I remember two examples off the top of my head... Qui-Gon's character is supposed to be that of an unorthodox jedi who skirts the rules and toes the line. Obi-Wan does it as a nonviolent way to get through a checkpoint. It's not a 1 to 1 scenario where Palpatine in Obi-Wan's position could have charmed the guard into letting him go by without seeing his identification. Sure, manipulation might be nth moral degrees better than mind control, but it's a moot point if it wasn't usable in the given situation where the jedi used mind control. Basically, the jedi care about who gets hurt, and need to intervene in a given problem to help people. Palpatine can wait for the right timing and use the problem to his own advantage, so he is not as limited in the problem solving skills he can employ. For sure that's probably not the only instance you're thinking of. You do bring up a good point that overall, the Jedi should be more humble about, mindful of, and less reliant on the power they wield. Overall, though, yes, I would say that we are shown and not just told that the Jedi are good. They are made of people, though, and people are imperfect, but imperfect people working together, striving to create peace and justice in a galaxy fraying at the seams is unequivocally better than someone methodically using anything and anyone to get power, ending up with oppression and tyranny.
ok I can do this. ANH: Obi-Wan uses the mind trick on a storm trooper ROTJ: Luke does this with Bib Fortuna, twice TPM: Qui-Gon to Watto AOTC: Obi-Wan in the outlander nightclub. Rey: various points with storm troopers in TFA/TROS Yet Qui-Gon becomes elevated to be the virtuous Jedi by the end of ROTS, it was he who learned the path to immortality, and in that instance became Yoda's teacher. I don't think it's a moot point at all. Mind control is violation, no type of violation is a moot point, whether it's holding somebody down, putting a pill in somebody's drink or outright controlling one's brain to get them to do exactly what you want them to do. Also consider this: "the force can have a strong influence on the weak minded" Obi-Wan so that makes everything ok does it? 'eh, they're just weak minded idiots, **** 'em, we superior Jedi can play with 'em if it suits our goals' IF Sidious or Dooku had made the statement and not Obi-Wan, they'd be vilified, yes? why is it different for a Jedi? in the PT I disagree, Jedi help people because they are mandated to. Qui-Gon's indifference to Shmi is a case in point "didn't come here to free slaves" you never saw Palpatine force Anakin to do what he doesn't want to. this is an 'ends justify the means argument' hence the Jedi and Sith are no different in this regard everyone is a shade of grey.
Remember this thread all started as a joke conversation in a game thread since I am part of a fictional faction known as the Sith: I was invited into this thread. If I had my way, and had I been notified this thread wouldn't exist. REMEMBER It all started as a joke.
"Joke." I think this whole Jedi vs Sith thing is very fun. (Considering I'm the one who started said "joke") All in good fun though.
Thanks, I knew I was forgetting instances , I definitely missed significant ones. I forgot Obi-Wan's "rethink your life", and Luke's use on Bib. (However, I remembered but discounted Rey's use in ep 7 as she's not a jedi yet. Also, given that this is the PT forum, definitely examining from the PT jedi side of things.) Yeah, I'll cede that Obi-Wan's mindtrick was an abuse of power for comedic relief. I guess to me because it's intended as comedic relief, it carries less character weight because of that. Definitely understandable that you wouldn't agree with that slightly sloppy analysis. Granted too, that rarely is any sort of mind control given the weight that it should be given. I mean, I don't think he was the virtuous jedi. Just a double edged sword of, his unconventional nature led him to blur moral boundaries and break rules, but also gave him insight into things most jedi would have overlooked. I think their perspective on him is more a case of, maybe if we had tried to understand each other a bit better, we would have been able to balance each other out better. I disagree, but pretty please would rather not get into this here... I've got so many words but just wanted you to know how where I'm coming from on this point. I don't think it is. I think the ends justify the means is different from, when faced with a situation, what is the best option that causes the least harm to all involved? Forgive me for the massive oversimplification, but if you are faced with a situation where people are endangered, and your three options are fight, walk away, or mind trick them? Sure, in a vacuum, walking is a less harmful option than a mindtrick, but if you have the ability to help people and refuse to... I guess all that to say, the ends don't justify the means, but neither do the means (always doing the least harmful option) justify the ends (people hurting). Obviously, I'm not perfect and neither is my logic. The clearest flaw would be that a friend of person A, seeing you mindtrick A, would apply my same logic and mindtrick me. Hence, this idea pretty much requires a separate set of standards for morality to function as obviously, the ends do not justify the means... I guess outside of ends and means and such, you consider mindtricking more heinous and objectionable than I do, which is absolutely fair. Maybe I should take a page from your book and be more careful about what actions I am ready to justify. Maybe I should consider it as equally to be avoided as violence. ... whew. That was too much from someone who, I promise, usually doesn't enjoy philosophical discussions as they often seem to pointlessly go in circles . I know it started from a joke, but I can see where you're coming from, in that your argument seems to be not that like. Palpatine and any given jedi are both morally neutral; it is more that obviously palpatine is bad, but the jedi's actions are often unexamined because they are the designated good guys. (Apologies if I misrepresented you anywhere!)
thank you for the detailed response @BookExogorth certainly things to ponder for sure, and thank you for seeing my points, even if you do disagree on some of them haha, I will retaliate that, yes in the other thread I was playing the Sith persona as it were, and never intended for such a thread such as this (interesting as it is) I think the overall point I was making was the 'a sith trick' line that was mentioned. My response was 'eh only Jedi use tricks....mind tricks' and it went from there So the more the conversation went on, the more 'you can fling mud (Jedi) but look at the log in your own eye' type thing. But yeah, Palpatine IS a bad guy, there is clearly no doubt about it...to argue otherwise would be disingenuous. And that was my point in the other thread (I was being somewhat ironic )
Yes, Palpatine is evil. I think Lucas gave him many archetypically evil traits -- selfishness, duplicity and machiavellianism just to name a few. But I don't think Palpatine views himself as evil; he never calls himself evil. To tell you the truth, nobody ever does. I think Palpatine is amoral. He values power above all. In his own twisted outlook on life, he probably views any effort to curtail his power as a form of evil.
There's not a gray area I can think of in really anything Palpatine did. He's pretty much pure evil. He more or less wants power for power's sake.
Totalitarian galactic takeover and mass murder of an entire religion qualifies him as a bad guy. No nuance about that from here.
Palpatine is a great character (particularly in the PT) who is deliciously evil. Yes, he is a "bad" guy. Pretty much as bad as it gets.
