Palpatine's Involvement at Alderaan

This thread is basically an extension of a recent argument with Tiershon_Fett in another thread that was stopped for being completely off-topic.

So, just how much was Palpatine involved in the destruction of Alderaan? Did he give Tarkin the order to fire? Did Tarkin contact him? Did Vader?

Basically, is the destruction of Alderaan Palpatine's doing?

 

Nope.

 

i just think that tarkin wanted to see if his toy worked. if he planned to run off with it at some point then i guess he'd want to know it worked if he was somehow chased down and backed into a corner

 

If Palpatine wouldn´t have given Tarkin the right to blast inhabited, important planets to pieces, Vader would have stopped him, I believe. Whether Tarkin asked specially permission from Palpatine to blow Alderaan to pieces is another thing, but certainly there had to be agreement on Palpatine´s behalf that the destruction was acceptable and that Tarkin was operating inside the boundaries of his command. Otherwise he would have been taken care of before the battle at Yavin, I presume.

 

Perhaps, but there's a question of what Vader's position was at that point in time.

Also, what condition was Alderaan in, in terms of loyalty to the Empire?

 

Perhaps, but there's a question of what Vader's position was at that point in time.

That can be argued, but I doubt that he would have let a Grand Moff do whatever he wanted without the Emperor´s permission. He acts rather meekly towards Tarkin in ANH, true, but even if Tarkin would have been independent of him - Supreme Commander of the Imperial Forces - and answerable only to the Emperor, I don´t think that would have stopped Vader. I would like to think that whatever Tarkin thought about the arraignment, Vader was there partly to keep an eye on him. Leia may have thought that Vader was the lesser of the two, but that can hardly have been the truth.

Also, what condition was Alderaan in, in terms of loyalty to the Empire?

The leadership was secretly taking part in a rebellion, but officially the planet was as loyal to the Empire as it could. Certainly that seems to have have been what the galaxy at large thought. So there was no open insurgency against the government, no widely known acts which would have given the Empire the right to start hostilities against one of it´s member planets.

 

But do you really think the Empire(and the Emperor) didn't know about Alderaan's rebel leaning ties? They knew that Princess Leia was involved with the Rebellion, and with Imperial resources they could do a little intel and find out that alot of resources and material come from Aldreaan.

But rather then just going outright do something about it, the Emperor decided to take his time and get rid of the planet when he could have a sufficient enough excuse that could also be used to further Imperial Propganda.

 

But do you really think the Empire(and the Emperor) didn't know about Alderaan's rebel leaning ties?

I don´t really think so. Certainly the Emperor and the top levels of Imperial hierarchy knew. I just meant that Alderaan wasn´t in an open rebellion and that it acted like a loyal subject planet of the Empire while it was supporting the rebellion. So most of the Empire´s subjects would consider it a loyal member of the Empire and wouldn´t understand hostile actions against it. And Bail Organa was trying not to attract the Emperor´s attention by being too much an opposition figure in the Senate.

They knew that Princess Leia was involved with the Rebellion, and with Imperial resources they could do a little intel and find out that alot of resources and material come from Aldreaan.

Yep. I agree.

But rather then just going outright do something about it, the Emperor decided to take his time and get rid of the planet when he could have a sufficient enough excuse that could also be used to further Imperial Propganda.

Likely this was the case. But considering that the people of Alderaan were über pacifists, I sometimes like to think that Tarkin would have acted on his own, as blowing up a planet which is synonymous to peacefulness is a major political blunder and the Emperor was good at politics. But this - Tarkin acting on his own and Vader letting him do it - is very unlikely.

 

"I don´t really think so. Certainly the Emperor and the top levels of Imperial hierarchy knew. I just meant that Alderaan wasn´t in an open rebellion and that it acted like a loyal subject planet of the Empire while it was supporting the rebellion. So most of the Empire´s subjects would consider it a loyal member of the Empire and wouldn´t understand hostile actions against it. And Bail Organa was trying not to attract the Emperor´s attention by being too much an opposition figure in the Senate."

So, in other words, it was in fact treasonous?

Leia's protestations of a weaponless (but hardly defenceless) Alderaan suggest there was no Imperial garrison on the planet...

"Likely this was the case. But considering that the people of Alderaan were über pacifists, I sometimes like to think that Tarkin would have acted on his own, as blowing up a planet which is synonymous to peacefulness is a major political blunder and the Emperor was good at politics. But this - Tarkin acting on his own and Vader letting him do it - is very unlikely."

I don't know for sure, but I remember others on these forums citing that Alderaan was in fact rearming itself. Either way, it does have a ridiculously powerful planetary shield.

As for the Emperor, there are two key quotes from ANH.

Tarkin: "I have chosen to test this station's destructive power... on your home planet of Alderaan."

and...

Tarkin: "I think it is time we demonstrate the full power of this station. (to soldier) Set your course for Princess Leia's home planet of Alderaan."

Certainly, it is indisputable that Tarkin was the man who came up with the plan, as you actually witness him thinking it through and deciding to take that course of action. But there's still a question of whether or not Tarkin or Vader informed the Emperor of what he was planning.

Now, there's certainly a chance Palpatine was told, as Vader's purpose onboard was to act as an observer for the Emperor, and make sure nothing treasonous or dangerous to Palpatine's rule occurred. But Tarkin says something fairly interesting later on...

"I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work."

He's, of course, referring to tracking the Falcon to the Rebel base, which makes one wonder what's the risk. The Death Star works, Leia was going to be disposed of, and the others had no real significance. Sure, Artoo had the plans, but it wasn't considered possible for the Death Star to be stoppable. Perhaps he was afraid of how the Emperor would react to Alderaan's destruction and wanted to finish off the Rebellion quickly.

 

It was clearly Tarkin's initiative. Which begs the question of how much power, legally speaking, the Grand Moffs hold? Are they authorized to exterminate the population of worlds outside of their regular jurisdiction on whims? Vader certainly didn't make to stop Tarkin with a, "It is not within your legal right to destroy Alderaan," or a, "The Emperor has not given you his permission to destroy Alderaan."

 

I just don't see any reason Vader would want to stop him. It's right up his ally. "Mess with the Empire, the Empire kills you, everyone you know, and everyone they know, and everyone else who happened to be standing near by."

What better way to send a message to the Rebellion? 'We found out Alderaan was helping you, we killed them all. We'll find the next one and kill them all. We'll do this until we kill all of you.'

Certainly a strong argument for any world considering joining the Rebellion to not do so. As far as politics go, Palpatine had all of the senators in his control anyway, wether directly through the Force or throught he force of his star destroyers, so it is not a consideration.

The 'chance' Tarkin is referring to, at least in my opinion, is trying one final strike against the Rebels instead of flying around in his death star blowing up planets until they lose the will to fight. It is, afterall, much easier to attack non-military targets than military ones. You must also remember that Tarkin doesn't really feel vulnerable to the Rebels, believing they are just a nusiance incapable of doing any real damage. Attacking them makes them real and gives them credibility, which is an argument for planets on the fence to join the rebellion.

there are my two cents.

Thanks,
Brian

 

True. It was Tarkin who decided to destroy Alderaan. No one else had any input in that.

 

This may not have any holding on what the initial question was... But isnt Tarkin Palps good/long time personal friend?

 

I think that they were close enough for Tarkin to have a decent amount of authority.

 

I don't think Tarkin or Palpatin ever had anybody they actually considered a friend. I think they had a you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours type of agreement. they used each other for their own personal gain.

 

So, in other words, it was in fact treasonous?

Yes, it was treasonous on the part of Bail Organa and others who took part, but not in the part of the whole populace of the planet. So the destruction wasn´t justified. What comes to the planetary shield, there are ways - as shown in EU - to take it down and blockades are possible and in the end they could have forced Alderaan to surrender by threatening to use the Death Star. It´s capabilities could have been demonstrated in an attack against some unihabited planet in the system etc.

"I'm taking an awful risk, Vader. This had better work." ...Perhaps he was afraid of how the Emperor would react to Alderaan's destruction and wanted to finish off the Rebellion quickly.

Perhaps it was so, but on the other hand, it could just as well be that the plan was decided and done without consulting the Emperor and had nothing to do with the destruction of Alderaan as such. And the way Tarkin says it, it sounds like it was Vader´s idea, not his. But certainly he thought was to take the blame if things went wrong.

 

If it was Vader's idea, perhaps that's why the Emperor didn't paint Tarkin as a loose cannon turned traitor after Yavin?

Though they could have just blamed Vader anyways (it's not as if Bast, Veers or the other survivors are going to contradict them)

 

GrandAdmiralJello: Well, that settles it then. Thanks

I wonder where Tiershon is

Rouge77: "Yes, it was treasonous on the part of Bail Organa and others who took part, but not in the part of the whole populace of the planet. So the destruction wasn´t justified. What comes to the planetary shield, there are ways - as shown in EU - to take it down and blockades are possible"

I don't know how a blockade of a planet could be effective, and yes, a fleet of Star Destroyers or a Torpedo Sphere may have been more effective than a planet destroyer, but in the end, it was Tarkin's call, as the radio drama shows, it seems.

"and in the end they could have forced Alderaan to surrender by threatening to use the Death Star. It´s capabilities could have been demonstrated in an attack against some unihabited planet in the system etc."

"Dantooine is far to remote to make an effective demonstration..."

"Perhaps it was so, but on the other hand, it could just as well be that the plan was decided and done without consulting the Emperor and had nothing to do with the destruction of Alderaan as such."

But Tarkin seems motivated to destroying the Rebellion. If the Alliance survives, all that Alderaan's destruction would do was bring more supporters to their side. The Emperor would not be happy to find a planet destroyed and nothing good coming of it.

"And the way Tarkin says it, it sounds like it was Vader´s idea, not his. But certainly he thought was to take the blame if things went wrong."

Oh, it was certainly Vader's plan to track the Falcon to Yavin, definately.

 

Which, it seems, Luceno's upcoming novel is going to reinforce -- the Insider #83 mentioned in the author interview that it will be covering a number of the first meetings between Vader and Moff Tarkin, which appear to be purely official in nature, as opposed to casual.

It's clear that Tarkin didn't suffer that terribly much public umbrage after Yavin -- remember that the WEG "News Net" updates virtually proclaimed him a martyr of the state; in the Mara Jade comic series, she accompanies a group of dignitaries to "The Agony of Tarkin" opera...at the very least, Tarkin's lionization had spread throughout Imperial Center, if not to the outlying reaches of the galaxy. The plan to kill Alderaan was his, but all the posthumous silken accolades were spun from the sow's ear of the sheer boost in recruitment the Rebellion experienced from his decisions.

 

I wonder where Tiershon is

Ignoring your self gratification thread with some amusement.

I stand by my original belief. Tarkin wouldn't have had anything to blow up Alderaan WITH, if Palpatine hedn't used tax payer funds to build his Sithly DEATH Star, to blow up planets. Tarkin could have been anyone. It' wouldn't have mattered. Tarkin did not build the DS. He's like an office manager of a business. He might be the boss, but everything from the staff, to the equipment, tot he coffee filters belong to the owner. In the case of the Empire, the Emperor owns everything. It's an Imperium. That means the Emperor is an autocrat. One who everyone answers to. That's all.

Tarkin may have acted on his own, but he still acted witht he Empire's authority, and the one with all the authority is Palpatine. Of course if he pissed off the Emperor, there's no where for him to run. I think he knew Palps well enough to know that he'd cackle at the thought of Alderaan being blown up. He's EVIL. The only one that seemed to think it repulsive was Darth Vader. Because he is the only one that has a conscience.

Just like that office manager, if the owner decides you're out, you're out. You take your plants and pictures with you, nothing else. The building and it's staff aren't yours.

I just don't see any reason Vader would want to stop him. It's right up his ally. "Mess with the Empire, the Empire kills you, everyone you know, and everyone they know, and everyone else who happened to be standing near by."

I think he didn't want to suffer the consequences. He's a disabled man that has a rotten life and probably considers himself helpless to do anything about it.

On the other hand, he may have thought, "Well, i don't agree with killing all those innocent people, but I never DID like the Organas. There's just something about them, they always act weird around me. AND they named their daughter LEIA. I was going to name my daughter leia!" *bitter*

 

Apparently not

 

"Ignoring your self gratification thread with some amusement."

Self-gratification, eh? Why, not at all, my opponent. I was merely humouring myself.

"I stand by my original belief. Tarkin wouldn't have had anything to blow up Alderaan WITH, if Palpatine hedn't used tax payer funds to build his Sithly DEATH Star, to blow up planets."

*Cough* Torpedo spheres, Star Destroyers *cough*

Interesting word, "fund" is

"Tarkin could have been anyone. It' wouldn't have mattered. Tarkin did not build the DS. He's like an office manager of a business. He might be the boss, but everything from the staff, to the equipment, tot he coffee filters belong to the owner. In the case of the Empire, the Emperor owns everything."

This is absurd. There's nothing to support yourclaim that the Emperor owns everything.

"It's an Imperium. That means the Emperor is an autocrat. One who everyone answers to. That's all."

It's actually a republic, in case you're oblivious

"Just like that office manager, if the owner decides you're out, you're out. You take your plants and pictures with you, nothing else. The building and it's staff aren't yours."

To use your analogy against you, the office manager of the Empire was actually Ars Dangor at the time, and the CEO of the company was put into power by the stock holders.

EDIT-removing flames

 

Vader did want to consult with the Emperor, but that was because he knew there would be consequences if the Emperor did not approve. Vader was precisely there as the Emperor's agent / advisor to Tarkin (and to make sure Tarkin doesn't turn on Coruscant). If Vader had disagreed strongly enough, Tarkin would have found himself out of breath (literally).