Panasonic announces new HD cams

I'm sure we'll hear a lot more about these throughout the week due to NAB, but Panasonic announced a couple new HD cams today (plus 64GB P2 cards). Everything will be available in Fall 08.

HPX-170 - successor to the HVX-200. DVCPRO-HD, records in 20 HD or SD formats. New CCDs, new 13x zoom lens with 28mm setting. All solid-state.

HMC-150 - HD successor to the DVX-100. AVC-HD format, records (HD only) to standard SD and SDHC cards, 1080/720, avg 21 Mbps, max 24 Mbps. New CCDs, new 13x zoom lens with 28mm setting. Suggested list price $4500 (which should put it around $3899 at B&H).

 

Hmm, the HVX replacement seems like the same camera, except it has HD output. I guess the new sensor is supposed to be sharper?

 

Wow, that HMC-150 looks pretty spiffy. Might have to upgrade now. :-D

 

I wish I could afford cameras like these. Unfortunately, I don't do any professional video work, so my Canon HV20 will have to do for now.

 

It seems to me like RED's Scarlet camera will thoroughly destroy both of these and be cheaper. Of course, Scarlet's a 2009 product, and its specifications are subject to change.

(Scarlet pricing is currently estimated between $3k and $5k. I don't think Red is going to announce the exact price until the final product is cast and ready to be sold. They made that mistake with Red One, and it bit them a little.)

-Spiff

 

Not to hijack this thread and turn it into a RED one, but do we have any idea how much the Scarlet is going to cost yet?

 

RED is not for "Prosumers" It's for professionals, You have to be able to afford the disk space to store scarlet 3K footage, then be able to preview / watch or edit anything RED on your computer if it is fast enough, and then pay for all of the overpriced necessary RED accessories. Very rarely will a prosumer be able to have all of those things. ALSO, all these RED products you have to wait in line for many months, because the production line is small.

Personally for small time films, I'd much rather have a format like DVCPROHD or AVCHD.

 

Scarlet may be between $3-5k, but I don't believe it has onboard sound or LCD. You'll need to buy some obvious accessories to get it up to an "acceptable" working condition. Just like the RED One at $17,500 is not good-to-go. You're talking more like $24-26k.

 

*Ahem* Glance back 18 minutes I agree with Mike Seymour's Tweets I've been reading. The Panasonic announcements are pretty "meh." I mean I love Panasonic, I shoot on the HVX primarily, but Scarlet is within my grasp just as much as the HVX200 or HPX170. What's the point in going with a light-sucking 720p or upscaled 1080p camera when I can spend just a bit more (RAID system, new version of Final Cut (I'm still on 5.1.2)) and go 3k?

 

I'm not sure about the sound, but the specs do quote a 4.8" LCD. I don't think the accessory costs will be nearly what you're anticipating though. I wouldn't be surprised that by the time you've got the right handles, filters, tripod, bag, flash cards, etc. you're looking at $10k.

-Spiff

 

Right. So it'll compete with the HPX and EX series from Panny and Sony. Not bad. RAW is a whole different animal though.

 

Yeah. It's the one I want Something about non-destructive white balance and colour correction appeals to me in a big way. Three cheers for meta-data!

-Spiff

 

Now I wish I hadn't bought my HV20 =(

Although I don't really have a need for a RED, they just look so "You must have me!"

 

The frame rates for Scarlet must be mentioned somewhere in here: 1-120fps, with a 180 fps burst mode...!

This would probably be a good cam for weddings and events and such where good slow motion is a necessity.



SB

 

No you don't......

I just sold my HV20, bought an HV30 (not because I "needed" the HV30 over the HV20, but because the circumstances were right to help a friend get into video). I don't regret buying the HV30 at all, even with the Scarlet on the horizon. But if I find the Scarlet turns out to everything its cracked up to be, I'll sell the HV30 and buy one of those. I'd loved to have gotten solid state recording now, but with whats out there I chose to stick with the HV30.

 

Getting equipment and raising money is the easy part of film making, the hard part is to make a story that is worth while, and entertaining. The equipment you use, and the quality equipment can bring to your project should compliment or assist your story, not try to bring it up out of the gutter.

So with that said, why even let RED cross your mind when you can get an HV20, or one of the newly announced Panasonic cameras keep an extra $25k and master your skills of the language of film, with the tools you have access to.

 

The high resolution of the Scarlet is really nice, but what I'm curious to know is: what is its dynamic range?

I used to wonder if dynamic range was such a big deal? After all, if the important parts of the image are well-lit, what does it matter? Then, a friend of mine showed me his HDR photography, and compared it to the same photos taken at a single exposure. The superior quality of the HDR images blew me away, revealing so much detail that the single exposure photos lacked. Dynamic range is also one of the biggest advantages film has had over video.

If digital cameras can match film in that area, then the days of film will be numbered.

 

The dynamic range of Scarlet will be comparible to the Red One and the Red Epic. It's simply a matter of geometry.

As for film having higher dynamic range than digital, this is an overblown myth. The bottom line is that the Red One's sensor is already comparable to many film stocks, and in some cases significantly better. The estimated latitude for Red One ranges from 8 to 11 stops.

-Spiff

 

im a dvx shooter. looking to go hvx... was waiting for the hvxa... sure enough its coming. only...

now the EX1 and EX3 look spiffy... and are full 1080p resolution ccds/cmos... as opposed to the hvx....

im rather disappointed in the hvx... and im a pana guy. might sell out to sony.

the whole pana faking 1080 resolution is just as bad as a girl faking it, your happy with it til you realize your not getting the full resolution. aint nothing like the real thing.


atleast i learned to wait it out.. pana screwed me with the release of dvx100a like two weeks after i bough the 100. haha

 

[image=http://www.e-radiography.net/radtech/f/film6.GIF]

According to the filmmaker's handbook, a high-end HD camera has a dynamic range of about 10 stops. The Dalsa Origin has an incredible range of 12 stops, and I suspect the Red One, having the same size CMOS, has a similar dynamic range.

Film on the other hand, has a dynamic range of 10 stops...plus a really long shoulder of 7 stops (and yes, I know the shoulder doesn't deliver nearly as much detail), bringing the total to 17 stops.

After reading reviews comparing the HVX200 to the HPX500, the 500 has a greater dynamic range strictly because its sensor is larger, 2/3" vs 1/3". The difference is either one or two stops, but I don't remember which. Are you sure that the Scarlet, with a smaller CMOS than the RED One, will deliver the same dynamic range?

 

Rubbish. Saying "film" has 10 stops is like saying "all CMOS sensors have the same dynamic range" - which is obviously false.

All film stocks are different, and there's a design trade-off between sensitivity and resolution. Film is inherently a binary medium, since once a grain is exposed it goes opaque. Each grain takes roughly the same number of photons to expose. Therefore, when you want higher resolution and more gradation between black and white, you need smaller and more plentiful grains.

If you have "fast" (i.e., large grain) film, you will blow out your exposure much more rapidly than if you have "slow" (i.e., small grain) film.

-Spiff