Plagueis killed in his *sleep*??

I don't get this. From all I've read and come to understand, a Sith apprentice becomes ready to assume the mantle of master when he becomes strong enough to best his own master. Several books, which are yes, EU, point out that this occassion typically comes about with a confrontation between master and apprentice. But in their sleep? Sounds to me like a cop-out. I'm pretty disappointed that GL and Co. couldn't come up with a better way for Sidious to have defeated his master to assume that title.

 

Palpatine may have been strong in the Force, but he was also cunning. He choose to kill Plagueis in his sleep to avoid the possibility of losing to him. Just as he tried to run from Yoda after the Grand Master did a Force shove on him. It's fitting as Palpatine finds it the wiser course of action to avoid fighting, if he can. It allows him to be slimy and a bit cowardly.

 

I find it interesting that Palpatine includes that detail when speaking to Anakin, for the reasons Sinister notes -- "slimy and a [more than] a bit cowardly!"

Palpatine simply could have told Anakin that Plagueis the Wise "was ambushed" by his apprentice, or just simply "killed" by him. The fact that Sidious did it when Plagueis slept tells me that the Muun Lord of the Sith was a pretty bad *** dude.

Adding Plagueis' possible creation of Anakin through the force would make him superior to Master Yoda in his understanding of the force.

Killing Plagueis while he slept mirrors how Sidious 'kills the Jedi order' in the PT, IMO. It is Sidious' 'modus operandi,' a reflection of his Sith name.

 

No, he couldn't. Not to get the effect he wanted. He wanted Plagueis to come across as being as sympathetic as he could to Anakin. Just saying his apprentice ambushed him doesn't do that to the same level as having Plagueis killed in his sleep, helpless. By having him be killed in his sleep, he makes Plagueis appear as a completely sympathetic character, which is needed for his efforts to turn Anakin. An ambush explanation might have worked, but not as effectively. It also doesn't necessarily mean that Plagueis was tough, it just means that Palpatine is of the mind that the best fight is no fight at all. Treachery is the way of the Sith, and what is more treacherous that killing your master when he is completely unaware that you are doing it? Plagueis was expecting a direct confrontation, so, Sidious uses his brains to become the Master by default. It wasn't cowardice, it was a brilliant strategic move. If you can defeat your enemy without ever having to battle, why bother fighting? Sidious used his brains to defeat Plagueis, although, based on what we see in ROTS, he was more than capable with a lightsaber. He took the road less traveled for Sith, and used brains instead of brawn. Sidious did it the smart way. Intelligence is not equal to cowardice.

It might, however Plagueis's role or lack thereof is limited to the storytelling of a Sith Master using whatever he could to corrupt a Jedi. We know Sidious will tell Anakin exactly what he wants, regardless of if its the truth, there is no reason to believe that Plagueis had anything to do with Anakin, no reason to accept his words as anything but a fanciful tale told specifically to Anakin based on his own history. Of course Sidious will insinuate that the Sith had something to do with his birth...it not only fills Anakin's need to know who his father might be, it also ties the conclusion to the Sith. If Anakin chooses to believe Palpatine about Darth Plagueis, leading him to the false conclusion that perhaps Plagueis created him, it ties Anakin to the Sith through something stronger than mere philosophy. If Anakin believes a Sith Lord created him, he is tied through blood, through family. Palpatine was almost certainly lying to Anakin, merely telling Anakin what he wanted to hear.

This, I will agree with. Palpatine prefers behind the scenes machinations over direct confrontation, and is quite adept at it. I don't think anyone can argue with the effectiveness of his schemes, at least in the PT.

 

Right Chron. And if memory serves me, we have touched on this subject before, elsewhere... elusive.

For me, the simple fact that Sidious whacked him in his sleep serves as proof that he was UNWILLINGING to face his Master straight-up. The question is why? Was about honor? No. He killed the Muun when his eyes were closed. Was is because of respect? Maybe. Maybe Sidious had a healthy respect for his Master's power.

Or was it because of fear?
See, I think Sidious was affraid of being replaced, and knew he wasn't bombad-enough to do anything about it. So he did the next best thing. He waited, found an opening and consolidated his power by usurping the mantle of Dark Lord. Plagueis should never have mentioned his midichlorian experiments to Sidious. In true Sith fashion, his ego is what led to his own demise. Dummy.

 

Well isn't fighting dirty what the Sith are all about?

 

Dirty and cowardly are two separate things.
What Palpatine did to become Dark Lord (albeit brilliant) was the definition of cowardly.

 

That's all in the eye of the beholder. Is it less than a straight-up one on one confrontation, maybe. But, if someone uses their smarts and cunning to make a situation where they achieve their end goal without any harm befalling them, isn't that more cunning than cowardly?

 

There is a bit of irony here. Anakin winds up killing Palpatine in a somewhat similar manner. Not while Palpatine is asleep, but when he is not expecting it to occur. Plagueis did not expect Palpatine to take his Lightsaber or whatever he used and kill him in his sleep. Anakin picks up Palpatine while he is trying to kill Luke and drops him down a shaft.

 

True enough on the beauty of it all. Maybe that is why I liked Maul so much. No talk, all action. He wanted to beat on his opponents, he wanted to physically dominate them. He wanted to see them realize that they were doomed. I'm brash like that. I want to smoke whoever I'm competing against no matter the sport or type of competition, and I don't bother talking smack. I have always envisioned the Sith Apprentice being told to do something, only to have them rebel on the spot once they've made the decision to ascend to the Sith-throne. Thus, Sidious was cowardly to me.

I'd like to think there is a ton of irony in how he got the shaft... when he wasn't looking. If Sid's had any stones, he'd have faced the Muun straight-up.

 

During the Revolutionary War soldiers would line up row after row, walk across the battlefield, and just stand there and get shot. When one line fell the nex line was sent. At some point smeone on the American side decided a better tactic would be to sneak around to one side and flank the enemy instead of getting shot walking upright across a field.

Anyone calling Palpatine a coward is in the line walking across the field.

 

Basically.

 

I'm calling him a coward, and I'm not dumb enough to stand in that line.
A poor battle plan, and being cowardly are not one and the same.

 

Why would Sidious bother giving his master a chance to defend himself when he can have his victory be assured?

 

A Sith Master allows himself to be punked in his sleep, and people want to blame Sidious as being cowardly? How about Plagueis being STUPID? What kind of halfway intelligent Sith Lord doesn't have countermeasures in place in his most private inner sanctum? The fact that he allowed himself to be killed in his sleep, knowing that treachery is the way of the Sith, and that more likely than not, Sidious WOULD take a shot or two at him, you would think he would set up some kind of Sith proof security devices. Sorry, but if I know my apprentice is gonna come try to kill me, and I don't know when, I take precautions against this kind of thing. If Plagueis is killed in his sleep, it means that he was negligent in his efforts to protect himself from such an eventuality. If you get punked in your own home, by someone you know might try to kill you, its your own fault. It would be different if Plagueis had no reason to ever suspect Sidious of trying it, but, as Apprentices trying to kill their Masters is commonplace among the Sith, if he discounted the possibility, he is an idiot, and deserved to be killed for not taking precautions against it.

Assassins have been killing people in their sleep since the dawn of time. Its not out of cowardice, its because if they don't have proper security measures in place, its the easiest way to do it. Why bother risking anything, when you can accomplish your goal without risk? Nobody is taking Jango Fett to task for having Zam attempt to assassinate Padme in her sleep...instead, he is hailed as being ubercool, and being daddy to the most badassed badass that ever was in the business of badassing. Yet, Sidious is a coward for doing it...

Darth Sidious simply outsmarted Darth Plagueis. Plagueis may have been the first person he outsmarted, but he certainly wasn't the last.

 

I hold onto a personal definition of "outsmart" -- that one must face a conscious and able person in order to "outsmart" them. There are plenty of examples of 'outsmarting' in personal confrontations . . .
- chess masters
- generals in battle
- sports figures and coaches
- politicians
- martial artists
The list goes on -- Sidious simply murdered someone in a sleeping state, and thus someone not in a postion to defend themselves and be "outsmarted." Yet admittedly, Plagueis was exploited at a vulnerable moment. It's all in one's definition and/or personal viewpoint, I suppose, just one I do not agree with.

And precisely 'how' Sidious killed Plagueis is never revealed -- bomb, gas, poison, nuclear weapons, bare hands . . . makes a difference IMO if one is to be labeled superior to another through treacherous acts of murder. Now Sidious "outsmarted" the Jedi order, but he also carried out a long-term plan laid by many previous Sith masters.

No way to prove the former (which I doubt is true -- many were dumped on by Sidious before Plagueis was killed), but the latter part is certainly true!

 

But, those situations have rules that simply do not apply to a Sith Master or his Apprentice. If Gary Kasparov could defeat an opponent at Chess by using a strategy that allowed him to sneak in from behind and capture the king without his opponent ever knowing, do you think he would limit himself to moves that are upfront? Do you think that if US commanders could have taken out Hitler by using a method that didn't call for the bloodshed of hundreds of thousands of troops, they wouldn't take it? There is a difference between doing the noble thing, and doing the smart thing. A Samurai wouldn't assassinate someone in their sleep, however ninja would. That's why you hire ninjas as assassins, and Samurai as soldiers. The Jedi are like Samurai, the Sith are like Ninjas. It seems like you want to condemn Sidious for not doing it the way a Jedi might. A Jedi would certainly have tried to take out Plagueis directly, in head to head combat, and would never have considered assassinating him in his sleep. But, the Sith do not follow the same code that Jedi do. Assassinating someone in their sleep would not be something any Sith would rule out. You can't hold Sidious to the standards you would hold a Jedi to. They simply don't apply to him.

A Jedi would consider Sidious killing Plagueis in his sleep as cowardly...but, would a fellow Sith? Or would a fellow Sith see the move for what it was, strategically brilliant, and therefore perfectly acceptable behavior? It all depends on your perspective. From the perspective of a Jedi, you would be right, its cowardly...but from a Sith point of view, it was genius, and good tactics.

 

^^^
Agree with all you say -- just don't think of it as "outsmarting" in the way that Sidious outsmarted the Senate, the separatists, the Jedi, Dooku and Anakin. He used his tact and intellect to titl the playing field his way and seize upon the confusion and fear of his opponents. Why not do this with Plagueis? Anakin (the pre-duel Anakin) told Padme he would kill Sidious and rule the galaxy. This Anakin has no fear of his master. He feels superior to him in every way, using him only as a tool to get what he wants. Once maimed, Anakin is trapped in the suit, half the man he once was with no hope of outright beating his master head on.

Sure, Sith do not use the 'rules of war,' but that does not make them smart. Stalin did not outsmart the 20+ million he murdered. Hitler did not outsmart the German Jews and their sympathizers. They struck ruthlessly. They murdered often by deception or brute force against opponents who were not armed.

A Sith feeds on fear and anger. There could be no such feeding by Sidious on Plagueis if the master was murdered as he slept. Plagueis never felt his life force ebb away. He simply, almost humanely joined with the force. He never sensed that he was outsmarted, and it takes two in my opinion -- one to outsmart, and one to realize they'd been outsmarted.

 

Any Sith apprentice would have to be an absolute fool to outright challenge his master to a duel. Murder, rather than combat, is probably the norm for a Sith apprentice.

 

It all depends on the Sith to be honest. A lot of being a Sith is an undying belief in the fact that you are better and stronger than everyone else, and nothing would drive that point home more than taking down your master in one on one combat.

 

Yet isn't deviousness a strength of a sort?

 

Absolutely! But 'devious' is not necessarily 'outsmarting' the way the Plagueis story is told.

Only my humble opion -- nothing more!

 

AGREED. I know that Bane said: "Honor is for the living. Dead is Dead." But I can't help but think there is something more to taking the Sith throne (if you will). We know in the EU that as a right of passsage a Sith must kill someone he or she holds dear. Dooku killed Sifo, Maul tried to kill Sidious, Talon whacked her trainer, etc. There's got to be some serious satisfaction in knowing you were able to kill the baddest dude in the galaxy, and now that title belongs to you...

At the end of the day, I just think Sidious was afraid to face Plagueis.

 

That's how the game is played. Darth Vader didn't throw down the gauntlet to Darth Sidious and yell out, "You sir, I demand satisfaction!" because he knew he'd lose. Treachery gets you to the top, not bravery, and certainly not stupidity.

 

And I'm willing to bet that an UNSUITED Vader would have relished facing Sidious.


Why doesn't suited Vader take on Sidious?
Fear. Not treachery. Vader would get owned.

You have to read all of my posts to understand where I'm coming from on this.
It isn't about honor, bravery none of that stuff.

Its about knowing, proving...
that YOU ARE the baddest, because you whooped the baddest.

I long ago called Sidious' move against Plagueis: BRILLIANT.
But that doesn't mean it wasn't cowardly.