Problems with Padme and a comparrison to LOTR's Arwen

I'm sorry to any Padme fans but I just do not buy her character. Her romance with Anakin is completely unconvincing. In the first film, there is no romantic feelings and she acted more as a guardian to him, despite him showing some attraction to her. In the second, his attraction is bordering on the lines of a stalker. How is that attractive or romantic? And Padme spends the first two films putting her people first, putting democracy first and doing what she believes is right, but as soon as ROTS comes she becomes downright selfish and ignorant. She's become so "madly in love" to the point where she's delusional, in denial and her sense of justice has gone.

Back before the PT was released, Padme was known for only one thing - being the woman who pops out Vader's babies. She didn't even have a name back then, making her an unimportant character in the overall picture of things. I feel it should have stayed that way. When the prequels came along, I feel they overglorified her character too much. If the PT came out before the OT, I would not have had a problem with her being a major character, but she's built up as this strong heroine in the first two movies and then goes back to being the housewife that we knew her as pre-PT in the third. It just doesn't work. In a way, it is very similar to the character of Arwen in Lord of the Rings. In the books, Arwen was a very minor character who's role was simply "Aragorn's lover". In the film trilogy, she has been given a much bigger role to the point where she had more importance than many of the other characters. Expanding a character's role can be useful if done within reason, but women like Arwen and Padme could be seen as Mary Sue's. What works for love stories in myths such as King Arthur is it is kept simple, making it effective and at the same time not overshadowing the rest of the story. Padme/Arwen's relative "Sueness" makes them lose the "mythical" aspect of their characters that can be compared to tragic women of legend, and makes them become too mainstream.

One thing this has hurt is the overall story. ROTS felt rushed because it tried to fit in too many things at once. The majority of the love scenes are nothing but fluff - the tragic maidens stand and cry, they get a pretty new gown every two minutes, they are forced to make some hard choice relating to their love life that's supposedly more important than the events affecting the rest of the universe and recite stiff dialogue. You could cut these scenes in half and not lose any important plot points, because most of them drag on more than they need to just to overglorify these women. And by having the story written to accomodate their characters, the rest of the plot has to suffer for it and at the expense of other characters. How much could Anakin have been better written if their was more focus on what turns him to the Dark Side rather than trying to hit on Padme? How much less of a whiney teenager who doesn't get his own way would Anakin have been without him written to revolve around Padme? How much more room would there have been to see more of the rise of the Empire and fall of the Jedi, had we had less focus on the love story? Again very similar to LOTR, with many more important scenes either being rushed or cut completely, and characters like Aragorn now having pointless personality changes such as his insecurity issues just so Arwen can have a bigger role in the story. It is this reason why I enjoy the Clone Wars series more. Padme does her job as Anakin's lover and the show moves on with more important matters.

Likewise, the idea of Padme fighting on the battlefield just doesn't work for me, much like it doesn't work for Arwen. Characters like Leia and Eowyn work due to the lifestyles and dark times in which they lived. For Padme and Arwen, it comes off as a cheap attempt to make them look "tough" and ride the "Girl Power" fad in an attempt to appeal to feminists, and just causes plotholes in the story. I'm sorry but everything about her feels fake and tacked on in an attempt to make her just as

 

I agree that it could have been done in a different way. But the fact is that Padme played such a decisive part in Anakins downfall. His love for her would be the major reason for him turning to the dark side. Thats why Lucas wanted to focus on the relationship between Padme and Anakin as much as he did. He wanted the audience to understand that Anakin was so lost in her, that he would do anything to keep her by his side. This is the only reason she is a major character in the movies.

 

I am sorry you don't like Padmé. She is a solid character - maybe not the greatest but very solid and she has some of the greatest scenes in the prequels, e.g. her two very different senate scenes. Vote of no confidence and of course later on "so this is how democracy dies. With thunderous applause". Two very different but brilliant scenes. She is important to the story. So you wished she would have stayed as an unimportant character. That could have worked and Padmé could have survived the trilogy and give this a more happy ending. But then it wouldn't be the tragedy Lucas wanted to do.

I don't think their love is unconvincing - far from it. But that is a matter of opinion. And Portman is excellent in the battle scenes. They work very well.

"How much could Anakin have been better written if their was more focus on what turns him to the Dark Side rather than trying to hit on Padme? How much less of a whiney teenager who doesn't get his own way would Anakin have been without him written to revolve around Padme? How much more room would there have been to see more of the rise of the Empire and fall of the Jedi, had we had less focus on the love story?"

Strange question as this isn't how Lucas saw his character and it's his story. We can all say what if... about so many things (including some of the elements of the original trilogy). Anakin was meant to be the whiney teenager. That is how Lucas saw him and that is how he is. If he hadn't been written like that then this wouldn't be Lucas' story. Of course some don't like the way he is in the prequels but this is Lucas' story. There was never any question of him being different in Lucas' mind. You may have pictured the young Anakin differently but sadly (for you) you are not making the SW films. Lucas is and he has done a brilliant job with all the films. This is the greatest film saga.

"Again very similar to LOTR, with many more important scenes either being rushed or cut completely, and characters like Aragorn now having pointless personality changes such as his insecurity issues just so Arwen can have a bigger role in the story."

Actually I think the added Arwen element in the LOTR probably made the films better. It can't all be battles.

"It is this reason why I enjoy the Clone Wars series more. Padme does her job as Anakin's lover and the show moves on with more important matters"

This is the only problem with AOTC in my view. Padmé is just for show and that weakens her character a little bit and the film.

 

I agree LOTR can't be all battles but a lot of story material got cut just so they could give her a bigger role. They even went so far to change Aragorn's character just so Arwen could be in more. What makes it worse is that now Aragorn's backstory is likely to be told in the Hobbit sequel, which will mostly be dealing with the Arwen love story. Chronologically it would be correct, but they already told that story when they moved and changed a lot of it so it can be in the LOTR trilogy, so now that means we're seeing the exact same plot rehashed just to draw in soccor moms.

 

you wanted padme to show romantic feelings for anakin in the first movie??? given his age that seems a little creepy

I never had a problem with the ladies fighting, not sure what your problem is although I am getting a hint that you feel that women should not be on the battlefield because that is manwork

And I liked the Arwen character in LOTR, even if she did get more emphasis then in relation to the book, it made for a complete hero character in all three movies, an important factor considering that not everyone who was seeing the movies had read the books to fill in the missing details

and finally...when did Padme place her love for Anakin above all else? she was always lobbying for democracy, the only time she suggested leaving her role in the senate was so she could take Anakin away and when you consider that at that moment he was the greatest single threat to democracy in the galaxy, it is hard to say she gave up her values for love

 

Here is my problem with the ladies fighting:

In LOTR - Middle Earth WAS a man's world. It was no different to medieval times. Women had no place on the battlefield, their role is in the kitchen and nursing babies. Now Eowyn went to battle anyway and defended her uncle against the Witch-King. That says a lot for her character. Now you have Arwen. Even though all the men forbid women from fighting, even though Elrond is adamant that Arwen leaves Middle Earth so she doesn't die, no one has a problem with her being sent to rescue Frodo from nine Nazgul or fighting on the walls of Helm's Deep. It makes every man in Middle Earth look like a hypocrite. It makes Elrond look like a hypocrite. It takes away from Eowyn as a character who broke free from the restraints of her gender, especially if every woman in Middle Earth is some highly skilled warrior. It doesn't make sense with the backstories. Eowyn lost her parents and spent her life training to weild swords and ride horses. Arwen was a pretty princess who got groomed her whole life. All this does is downplay Eowyn and make Arwen a Mary Sue.

In Star Wars - we know what the galaxy was like when the Empire ruled. We know Leia was trained in military training both with and without weapons. We know the force is strong in her. She is the leader and general in the Rebellion. She had a reason to fight. Padme on the otherhand, spent most of her childhood in democracy. She was a child when she became queen. She lived on a peaceful planet in peaceful times. Yet she has the skills of a commando. I don't buy it.

Leia and Eowyn fight because they are strong characters living in dark times. Padme and Arwen fight because Lucas/Jackson thought it was cool to have a chick weilding a sword/blaster. See the difference? The former are treated just like any other character in the story. Gender isn't an issue because their strength lies in their characters. The latter are there screaming "Girl Power!" They are overglorified just because they are women. It's like comparing strong characters like Ellen Ripley and Sara Conner, to the girl power types like the Charlie's Angels.

What missing details? What complete hero? Aragorn's story in the books wasn't dependant on Arwen. He was a hero and he had a character evolution - it just didn't involve a Hollywood Hero Cliche with insecurity issues. Arwen was never a heroine - that role was filled by both Eowyn and Galadriel. Arwen only had TWO scenes in the books and everything else about her would have occured in the Hobbit 2 movie set between the original Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy.

Her role in the films is like an OT remake. Imagine Mara Jade is introduced in ANH. Luke is too insecure about being a Jedi and the story requires his love for Mara to push him down that path. She also pulls some strings behind the scenes which are the reason for key events like the destruction of the Death Star, the rescue of Han, convincing Lando on Bespin to save Han's friends and the alliance with the Ewoks. Why not have her replace Lando too as the one who flies the Falcon in Death Star 2?

 

Did I miss something? Arwen didn't fight anywhere in the three LOTR films. She is not at Helm's Deep.

 

She was intended to be, and some material with her at Helm's Deep was tried out, but it got cut. And I think her inclusion in Frodo's escape from the Nazgul is counted by some as "fighting".

 

It's probably been posted above, but Arwen got all of two or three paragraphs in LOTR, if you don't count the part in the appendices about what happened to them after the story, which is probably some of Tolkien's best writing ever, IMO.

 

It doesn't matter what was intended. Lots of stuff was intended that didn't work and wasn't done or used. She does no fighting in the flight to the fords of Bruinen. She runs on a horse and then draws a sword before summoning magic her father and Gandalf put there.

 

Padme though doesn't live on Earth or Middle Earth. Women are not prevented from serving on the frontlines in the SW universe. Watch the Battle of Naboo again and you'll see at least one female starfighter pilot among the pilots we see(women serving as pilots actually makes sense as their different center of gravity and other aspects of the physiology allow them take withstand a slightly higher level of g's then men). Another example would be genosis where their are alot of female jedi fighting.

 

And of course there's Leia as well.

 

Do we know Padmé wasn't trained for fighting when she became Queen of Naboo? I always assumed she was trained for every possibility.

And how do we know Leia got this military training? Nothing in the films says she did (please correct me if I'm wrong). EU doesn't count in this kind of discussion.

 

Naboo had an army, fighter pilots....doesn't sound like they were a peaceful planet with no weapons... like Alderan, yet you accept that Princess Leia would have formal military training while Padme would not.

This is also a Queen who routinely used a decoy to avoid assasination attempts...again not the type of of thing you would expect from a peaceful planet.

I am certain that the problems with the trade federation did not begin two days before the movie began, most likely the problems had festered for quite some time, ample time for the Queen to train to be able to protect herself...it makes no sense to have a blaster hidden in your desk if you don't know how to use it.

 

Those women are believable. The starfighter pilot is no different to the women in the air force. The Jedi Knights are no different to policewomen. Padme is NOT a Jedi or fighter pilot, she is a politition. This is my point. She shouldn't be on the battlefield and fighting as if she is just as good or better than those with real training.

She didn't need to fight. Just pulling out a sword shows female warriors in Middle Earth are as common as people with blonde hair.

READ - I am NOT against women fighting, I just don't like it when it's unbelievable because it can't be taken seriously. Padme and Arwen can't be. Liv Tyler said it best when her fight scenes got cut - you don't need to place a sword in her hand to make her strong. Padme's strength lies in democracy. Treating her as if this politic is as skilled a fighter as any Jedi or soldier is not only cheap, but overshadows her true strength by turning her into a Hollywood Cliche. In a GFFA, it is no different to today's society. You have women as police, in the army, the airforce etc. But you'd never see Hillary Clinton or Queen Elizabeth (in her prime) fighting on the frontlines in Iraq.

Obviously the planet is going to have some defense. The fighter pilots are no different to a police force. It was still a peaceful planet, like Alderaan was. How many countries have a police force in our world? Does this mean you'd be seeing politics fighting alongside soldiers in war?

I can accept TPM because she came off as someone who is trained in self defense, however in AOTC she is portrayed as someone as skilled as any military commando fighting on the frontlines of battle. I am sorry, but she is not a soldier nor is she a Jedi. She is a politition, who spent many years after TPM in the senate discussing debates, not going to war. Difference between her and Leia is that Leia lived in dark times. She lived in a world ruled by dictatorship.

So yes, a woman who rebelled against dictatorship and commanded a freedom force is a lot more believable than a woman who was groomed as queen and spent most of her time talking politics during a war.

 

As far as I could see, Arwen is barely in LOTR. Padme is a FAR more extensive and pivitol character (even though obviously shes not perfect) than Arwen. I bet all Arwen's scenes in all three LOTR movies would come to no more than 10 minutes of screen time?

I also think that the way she's involved and written into both TPM and AOTC battles is fine. In AOTC, I don't get the idea she in charge or anything. She simply finds herself in this situation with Anakin and Obi-Wan.

 

The theory that one being groomed for a royalty position would not receive formal military training is cetaintly novel. However, it actually has no historical basis, even today the Royal family sends future princes in for military service (in British tradition, only the men join the army). And would you care to guess the percentage of US presidents who have served in the military?

I still feel your comments are extremely sexist given that the person whom Padme replace in the senate was trained not as a soldier, but as a sith, and used his fighting skills to wipe out a room full of jedi's. I didn't notice you having trouble with the career polititian taking over the universe....

I also don't notice any complaints about an 8 year old kid who had never flown into space wiping out an entire command ship, nor protests over a farm boy who had never left his planet destroying the death star.

A female politician with military training....is that really a difficult concept to accept in this trilogy?

 

I'd like to point out that the so-called "additonal" scenes of Arwen and her so-called "expanded role" in the LOTR films were in fact drawn directly from the novel The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien's appendices are not just supplementary material, they are essential for understanding the story and are a great revelation to readers who have just finished the narrative portion of the novel. "The Tale of Arwen and Aragorn" in Appenidx A provides a wealth of backstory about both characters and especially fleshes out Aragorn. Almost every scene in the Jackson films that depicts their relationship is drawn from this excellent short story, written by Tolkien, who fully intended it to be read.

As to the claim made above that Arwen's presence at the Ford of Rivendell reduces Eowyn's contribution to the Battle of Pelennor Fields and makes the men of Middle Earth look like hypocrites, I couldn't disagree more. Arwen is not depicted fighting the Nazgul, but merely raising the enchantment which protects Rivendell, over which she has some power as the heiress of Imladris' master, Elrond. Also, Eowyn is a human, specifically one of the Rohirrim, whose customs reflect a medieval Anglo-Saxon ethos; while Arwen is an Elf, whose society is far more egalitarian with regard to its treatment of the sexes (as evinced by Galdriel's queenship, among other pro-woman institutions in Elven culture).

 

Soo yer saying forget the oranges, because we have some apples and chili-peppers being held to the same light?

 

Er, uh... yeah. Chli-peppers.

 

Expanded role? She's barely in it (the movies, I mean)

 

You got it Vort!
It makes no sense to compare them.

 

Yeah I don't see much in the way of comparison between Padmé and Arwen.

 

A more interesting discussion (probably for Saga) would be to compare to Padme and Leia.