Question about Luke and the netherworld of the force (re: Star Wars: Legacy)

Since we all know that Luke is dead by the time of SW: Legacy, is it possible that Luke will see his mother, Padme, in the netherworld of the force?

I am asking, because Luke is a force user like his father and sister and would naturally be able to see everything in the afterlife, since the force represents everything that's in the galaxy, so to speak. I know that Padme was not a force user, but is it possible for Luke to see his mother in the afterlife, given the fact that she was married to a force user and bore two force sensitive children?

I think its obvious that Luke would've already seen his father in the netherworld of the force, since both Luke and Anakin both retained their identities and are both apart of the lightside of the force (Anakin retained his identity through his redeemption, I believe). He would've already spoke to Anakin, as well as Obi Wan, Yoda, and other Jedi from the OJO and NJO that has moved on to the netherworld of the force.

But I was wondering about Padme, thats all.

 

If there is a "Netherworld" in the sense you're talking about, then I'm sure everyone goes there. However, I'm not entirely convinced that we're supposed to believe there's a Heaven, per se, so much as a Nirvana.

 

In the Star Wars mythology, there is a netherworld that Jedi (or force users) go to after they've passed on from the physical realm. They can also learn to retain their identities in the force, which is why we saw Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin as force ghosts in ROTJ.

I am just wondering if Luke would be able to meet his mother for the first time in the netherworld, despite her not being a force user. Luke and Leia both have a right to know both of their parents, even if it means meeting them in the afterlife.

 

Those two things don't strike you as mutually exclusive? If there's a heaven where your soul goes, why would you have to learn how to preserve your identity?

::shrug::

No more or less right than any other orphan.

 

Again, the netherworld of the force is where Jedi go after they die. Lucas has said that there's only so much time before Jedi can retain consciousness before they lose that. That's where learning the technique Qui Gon first taught Yoda and Obi Wan (and Obi Wan and Yoda in turn, teach Anakin right after he dies) comes into play. Once Jedi learn this technique, they can retain their identity in the force. Again, that's why we see Obi Wan, Yoda, and Anakin as force ghosts at the end of ep. VI, and why Mara appears to Luke as a force ghost at the end of Sacrifice, and why we see Luke as a force ghost in Legacy.

I believe the netherworld of the force (or being one with the force) are reserved for light side users, which is why Anakin had to be redeemed in order to learn that technique.

Since Luke is a force user like his dad, it makes sense he would be able to see Anakin in the neitherworld of the force, along with Obi Wan, Yoda, Mara, etc. He's probably seen and conversed with all of them, including Jedi from the OJO like Qui Gon whom he's never met, but was a huge part of his father's life when he was just a boy. But he should be able to talk to his own mother as well, since he's never met her in his life.

 

How does that make logical sense?

If you're not Force-sensitive, and most of the time even if you are, you don't retain your identity after death. The Force isn't going to make an exception for Luke's family.

 

Ever since Hayden got inserted into ROTJ, I've thought that the happy glowy ROTJ ending probably only lasted about five minutes before Anakin realized that Padme wasn't there and went into full-blown tween Skywalker angst.

Which explains why Yoda and Obi-Wan cleared off by HTTE. They couldn't stand him any longer

 

Which is sad, because Luke never met his mother.

The only way Luke would know about Padme, is from Anakin. Anakin would have to tell Luke about Padme but that won't happen until Luke has passed away. Since we know that Luke retains his identity in the force like his dad, I think its safe to assume that he would be able to talk to Anakin, as well as other Jedi.

 

Anakin seemed pretty happy to me as a force ghost. Yoda and Obi Wan were right there with him, as they were the ones who helped Anakin retained his identity, after he came back to the light side of the force. Besides, Anakin is in the force at that point, so naturally, he wouldn't have the problems with emotional attachment he did in the PT. None of the Jedi would, including Luke.

 

I've always thought that the netherworld is where everyone goes, but only Jedi can find a way for living folks to be able to interact with them. Doesn't seem very fair that only a bunch of people with what seems to be a random genetic mutation are the only folks who get to have an afterlife

 

Neither did Han. Neither have a lot of characters...

Luke knows about Padmé from Artoo's bizarre voyeuristic hologram recordings. Of course, all he had to do was pick up The New Essential Guide to Characters, which had been out for about eight or nine years by that time, so really it's Luke's own fault for not reading more often.

 

The Artoo projections only showed bits and pieces of information. They didn't tell everything about the characters, so he wouldn't know everything about Padme.

The only thing Luke knows about her, is that she was once Senator of Naboo, was married to a Jedi Knight (Anakin), who died in childbirth. I doubt he knows what her personality was like. If he knew about Padme, than Luke would know that he takes after Padme a lot, meaning his compassion for others.

 

I'd rather see Luke go to Naboo and learn about his mother from his cousins and Aunt, if she is still alive, than try to find his mother in the netherworld.

 

Right. But if there's a netherworld, a place to "go," then a retained consciousness is implied. If one is worried about losing his concsciousness, the implication is that there is no "afterlife," per se, but more of a "snuffing out" or Nirvana.

 

Nirvana is a problematic analogy for the 'netherworld' of the Force.

Nirvana is the complete release from human needs and desires by self-knowledge and purity of the mind. It is the end of self and identity and the endless cycle of reincarnation. It is unity with the whole or the universe.

What Force-Ghosts are achieving is NOT Nirvana. Jedi appear to strive all their lives for the state of Nirvana through the Jedi Code, but then to choose at the end to retain their identities at death rather than becoming fully one with the Force is a defiance of Nirvana.

As there is no mention of reincarnation in Star Wars, everyone seems to achieve complete unity with the Force, or Nirvana, at death. Only Force-users seem to be able to choose, and only a very, very small number of those. I'm not getting into the problematic concept of the 'hell' Sith find themselves in at death. I'm not entirely sure if that's canon or fanon.

In a sense, Padme has always been with Luke, and will always be with Luke. But not as a self-aware entity.

Fairless doesn't really have anything to do with it. Fairness is not a law of our universe, nor of the GFFA's universe. Some people hit the genetic lottery for extreme talent at sports. Is that unfair to the rest of us, that we didn't, and we can't be million-dollar-salaried pros, too?

It seems unfair that Padme cannot exist as an individual in the Force because our culture is focused on Christianity for the most part and the retention of identity. The quest not to be, the quest to achieve Nirvana, is foreign and frightening. However, this is one place where the GFFA significantly differs from our own culture.

 

Right. Hence no "netherworld," except in a terribly figurative sense. A few Jedi retain their identities. They become Boddhisattvas.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Chaos

Hell is canon.

 

Hell is open to interpretation ;-)

 

Personally I prefer to think of Chaos as the total antithesis of the Netherworld. If the Netherworld is becoming one if the Force I see Chaos as severance from it, i.e. oblivion. I see the Exar Kun route as the only form of self-preservation darksiders have left, but the absolute irony being that far from achieving immortality they in fact rob themselves of it, becoming little more than a shadow forever in fear of complete annihilation.

Good reason to have a grudge against the living.

That said, when I say 'darksiders' I'm only really talking the ones who actually fall far enough that becoming a shade is their own option left. I figure your basic Dark Jedi isn't 'true evil' enough. I see Chaos as mainly being the fate for those who have become thoroughly twisted by the dark side, the genuine Invincible Darth Caeduses rather than the Betrayal Dark Jedi Jacen Solos. The ones who have become utterly corrupted by the dark side that they are already no longer themselves.

Taking that trail of thought a step further, I could possibly entertain the idea 'Darth Caedus' faces Chaos, i.e. oblivion, as opposed to Jacen Solo who rejoins the Force... but that's getting really complicated and totally dependent on the LOTF approach of them as two separate 'souls' in a sense. I prefer to stick with Chaos just being obliteration. A lot of this though simply comes down to me wanting to think of Palpatine as not just dead but dead, beyond any chance of ever returning, annihilated for all time. I feel an actual "Hell" is a bit too conventional for the Force and in a universe with resurrection and immortality too nice a fate for those who try and twist the foundation of the universe.

That all said, I also like the idea of Chaos actually being the dark side, with all the dark souls inhabiting a particular 'part' of the Force and thus creating an 'Anti-Force' in the form of the dark side, providing a source of power for those who wish to go against the general will of the rest of the Force. I mainly like that approach in terms of a literal "the dark side should be concentrated in one vessel" interpretation, whereby the more darksiders that are dead the more powerful the big swirly thing that is the dark side becomes, both due to less drawing on it and more dark souls fuelling it. But... I still typically prefer the oblivion approach.

 

do you think luke got to meet revan and bastila?

revan--hello luke skywalker i am the jedi revan and this is my dear wife bastila.
bastila--i'm happy to know you welcome to the netherworld.
luke--i know who you are i read your book revan it was pretty funny
revan--thank you luke
luke--where is my mother?
revan--your mother isn't here she wasn't a jedi she is in another realm
luke--can i visit her?
revan--you can but you have to ask the high lord first

 

I have the view that 'chaos' and the 'neverworld' are the same thing, just viewed differently.

Everyone 'goes' to the same 'place,' so to speak, which is unity with the Force-- as RebelGrrl says, what we'd call "nirvana" appears to be the default destination for all beings after they die.

Jedi, of course, see this as a good thing-- the total surrender of self, the shedding of all desires, eternal bliss, and so on.

Sith, on the other hand, have a somewhat less cheerful outlook. Sith are, after all-- with very few exceptions-- self-worshippers; thus, the idea of surrendering one's unique identity to the whole of the Force is an inherently terrifying idea, and one to be avoided, not embraced.

As to Force Ghosts of the Jedi variety... since clinging to one's identity and refusing to surrender to the unity of the Force is an inherently selfish act, what does it say about them?

Two things, I think-- first of all, that existence as a Force Ghost is not, as many fans interpret it, some sort of 'reward' the Force bestows upon those it considers worthy (the idea that the Force is some sort of sapient entity that could or would do such a thing is ludicrous in and of itself, but that's another discussion).

Second, that when people like Obi-Wan use a technique to become Force Ghosts (and it is, again, merely a technique, like any other), it's actually a very self-sacrifial act on their part-- that is, they're choosing a sort of voluntary purgatory in order to provide assistance to those who remain alive. This is why their act is considered inherently "light side;" they're sticking around after they die not out of selfishness but rather selflessness, whereas a Sith would be doing it out of fear of union with the Force.

This is why, once Obi-Wan has seen his former Padawan redeemed and Luke set on the path to rebuilding the Jedi, he feels he can finally move on and surrender himself to the Force. The same goes for Yoda, and perhaps Anakin; frankly, I'd have liked it better if all three of them gave themselves over to the Force after the credits rolled in RotJ, making their appearance there a sort of 'farewell' to Luke; but canon, of course, precludes this, although even then it seems Obi-Wan (and, presumably, the others) felt by HttE that Luke was ready to go it on his own and he could move on to union with the Force.

 

I think the Force spirit thing is actually a higher attainment, mystically speaking, than merely dying and going to the Netherworld of the Force. It's a mystical union that goes one step beyond what is usually described in Buddhist literature. In fact, it's very Sufi. Just from the ROTS novelization alone I can tell you it fits the Sufi concepts of Annihilation in God and Subsistence with God. Qui-Gon tells Yoda how to annihilate the self and join one's light with the Light of the Force and thus become subsistent with the Force. They die before they die and find immortality with the Force. The Subsistence part is also called "the Annihilation of Annihilation." It's beyond Nirvana.

 

Not really consistent with Obi-Wan deciding it was time for him to go. I'm with Trip, here.

 

In the rough draft?Ben explains that?if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force." - Annotated Screenplays

YODA: One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force. (ROTS)

 

So Lucas is a Sith?